Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[coeurfragile]

http://thaddeuspope.com/futilitycases.html



He has the court papers there.

Thank you and also Linda7NJ for providing links! Sorry for being a pain in the tookus

 

[Herat]

With all this talk about organ harvesting and the implications wrt declarations of brain death, I just feel compelled to say two things:

There has been no mention that I've seen of the Childrens or the parents taking any steps wrt organ donation in this case; and

if the findings of the Childrens' docs weren't independent enough, the Stanford doc has confirmed that she is, indeed, brain dead. With still no mention of organ donation from anyone on either side.

jmo

Important points you make.

I really think the discussion about organ donation needs to stop. It is not at all pertinent to Jahi's case.

 

[MyBelle]

Thank you, fascinating read!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Especially this part:

Finally, surveys suggest that issues related to respect for valid consent and the degree of neurologic injury may be more important to the public than concerns about whether the patient is already dead at the time the organs are removed.

 

[Linda7NJ]

With all this talk about organ harvesting and the implications wrt declarations of brain death, I just feel compelled to say two things:

There has been no mention that I've seen of the Childrens or the parents taking any steps wrt organ donation in this case; and

if the findings of the Childrens' docs weren't independent enough, the Stanford doc has confirmed that she is, indeed, brain dead. With still no mention of organ donation from anyone on either side.

jmo

The reason I've brought it up and discussed it is because "brain death" IMO was adopted to make organ transplantation successful and much more common. There is no doubt the topics are related and interconnected, even if it has nothing to do with this specific child. Hard to discuss one without the other.

 

[iluvmua]

OMG, the mother says the nurse told her it is normal to bleed from the mouth.

“Sometime after the seemingly uneventful Dec. 9 surgery, Jahi was taken to the ICU and Winkfield said she was told the staff had to fix her ICU. About 45 minutes later, Jahi was brought back to her room and was sitting in bed, bleeding from her mouth.”

“"It was normal," Winkfield said the nursing staff told her.”

“Winkfield then said she asked for a doctor. Instead, she said she was given a bigger container for Jahi to bleed into, and later, a suction device to suction out the "increasing volume of blood," the court request states.”

Seriously......... a nurse is NOT going to tell a family member it's normal for a patient to bleed out of the mouth after they had a complicated surgery.



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

 

[redheadedgal]

MyBelle: Actually, from what I've read, that isn't where Jahi will first go. Apparently, the organization has stated in a letter filed with court documents they are willing to provide Jahi 24-care at their out-patient facility, which is a modern building.

The president of New Beginnings Community Center for Traumatic Brain Injury, a nonprofit outpatient rehabilitation center in Medford, said in a letter Sunday to the mother's attorney and filed with the California court that she would be "willing to open our outpatient facility to provide 24-hour care as an inpatient long-term facility for Jahi with the required and appropriate medical staff that she depends upon."

the facility is begging for donations (see facebook pages) to finish the remodel of the farmhouse...so where/how are they going to get the monies to buy the required machines, bed, AND STAFF etc., to take "care" of jahi round the clock at either location?

again i ask, how does the family think this is a viable option? smh.

 

[MyBelle]

With all this talk about organ harvesting and the implications wrt declarations of brain death, I just feel compelled to say two things:

There has been no mention that I've seen of the Childrens or the parents taking any steps wrt organ donation in this case; and

if the findings of the Childrens' docs weren't independent enough, the Stanford doc has confirmed that she is, indeed, brain dead. With still no mention of organ donation from anyone on either side.

jmo

I can't think of a reason for the Hospital to rush to ignore standards and determine brain death if organ transplantation wasn't their goal. That said, I think it's a moot point at this time because the parent would have to give her approval and she refused to believe the diagnosis of brain death.

 

[scubadvr99]

Since I am catching up on the threads, I wasn't sure if this had been discussed.

Before a physician can practice or perform procedures, they have to be "credentialed" by the hospital. This can take several months. It requires hospitals to look at the person's education, work, etc..... before they are approved. (It is a standard that is required in all facilities that I am aware of.) So they can't just "have another physician come in" to do the procedures. If they can't get someone credentialed at that facility she will have to be moved to have the procedures performed.

 

[iluvmua]

I can't think of a reason for the Hospital to rush to ignore standards and determine brain death if organ transplantation wasn't their goal. That said, I think it's a moot point at this time because the parent would have to give her approval and she refused to believe the diagnosis of brain death.

Your right about that

 

[Herat]

The outpatient facilities FB page

https://www.facebook.com/www.nbli.org

The home that is currently in construction for long term housing FB page. The page has pictures of the progress on the home and links to news articles and fund raising events.
At this point, all they would have is a building permit.

https://www.facebook.com/brendanhouseproject

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1990/22/9022504

I must admit I am concerned after reading articles like the one above, suggesting that the apnea test itself can cause brain damage and possibly brain death. (I do realize the article above is from a pro-life site which is probably biased, but it is interesting food for thought nonetheless).

My question is this: Does anyone know in Jahi's case (or in general) if the apnea test is/was performed before or after the EEG and other diagnostic tests? If it were me and my loved one, I am thinking I would definitely want the EEG and possibly ALL other diagnostic tests to be performed before the apnea test. Maybe I am just paranoid! :scared:

You also have to remember that the CT scan showed degeneration of the brain, and no blood flow.

I suppose they could repeat the CT scan and show even more degeneration. There are multiple tests and exams that are done.

I also have to state that the physicians that perform these tests are extremely aware of how emotional and sensitive the information is that they must convey. These are people that have to deal with inoperable tumors, severe brain disabilities, coma, vegetative states, and brain death. They regularly have to give devastating news to parents. These are kind and sensitive people who know they must tell the truth to parents. They are very strict in their examinations and not at all cavalier about interpreting the findings. Some issues are not black and white, but shades of grey. All the reports I have read about the physician reports on Jahi were unequivocal. She is brain dead. May she rest in peace.

 

[MyBelle]

the facility is begging for donations (see facebook pages) to finish the remodel of the farmhouse...so WHERE are they going to get the monies to buy the required machines, bed, AND STAFF etc., to take "care" of jahi round the clock at either location???

I think private foundations will step up and cover the costs.

 

[Karmady]

Important points you make.

I really think the discussion about organ donation needs to stop. It is not at all pertinent to Jahi's case.

I think that the cited literature addressing brain death seems to arise primarily in this context. So it's relevant, imo, to that extent. Providing that the agenda on the part of some commentators is recognized and accounted for and that the overall context of the articles is not equated to this situation. I agree, obviously, that the organ donation aspect is irrelevant.

jmo

 

[BeginnersLuck]

With all this talk about organ harvesting and the implications wrt declarations of brain death, I just feel compelled to say two things:

There has been no mention that I've seen of the Childrens or the parents taking any steps wrt organ donation in this case; and

if the findings of the Childrens' docs weren't independent enough, the Stanford doc has confirmed that she is, indeed, brain dead. With still no mention of organ donation from anyone on either side.

jmo

IMO, the organ donation topic is irrelevant to the discussion, because I have not seen one single mention of it in this case.

This gets very sketchy and some of the links can be misleading. There are certain "right to life" groups that oppose organ donation from those that are being mechanically kept alive to obtain vital organs for transplant. A lot of the articles in the situations they pose as brain death, are people that are in comas or vegetative states and decisions by family or their directives have been to remove life support. This is so much different than brain death, but they are calling it brain death. They use scare tactics because of what they oppose. The best thing everyone can do is become informed, from legitimate sites and have advanced directives for what you would want in these situations.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Especially this part:



Finally, surveys suggest that issues related to respect for valid consent and the degree of neurologic injury may be more important to the public than concerns about whether the patient is already dead at the time the organs are removed.

I'll tell you what... I'm a card carrying organ donor and I would not want to live any longer if I were "brain dead", in a persistent coma, vegetative state...etc. my personal views have not changed.

However, all of this reading I'm doing in support of this mothers rights as a parent and citizen....it's ...ummm more than a little bothersome !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[scubadvr99]

I can't think of a reason for the Hospital to rush to ignore standards and determine brain death if organ transplantation wasn't their goal. That said, I think it's a moot point at this time because the parent would have to give her approval and she refused to believe the diagnosis of brain death.

IMO, they aren't "rushing to ignore standards". They have already determined that she is indeed brain dead.

 

[SophieRose]

If she's dead in California, then she's dead in New York, too.

But she might not be in New Jersey.

http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/...d-government-role-in-determining-brain-death/

Defining the line between life and death has long been controversial in New Jersey, which uniquely allows an exemption from declarations of brain death for patients based on religious belief.

I think someone posted this link previously.
http://www.braindeath.org/law/newjersey.htm

26:6A-5. Death not declared in violation of individual's religious beliefs The death of an individual shall not be declared upon the basis of neurological criteria pursuant to sections 3 and 4 of this act when the licensed physician authorized to declare death, has reason to believe, on the basis of information in the individual's available medical records, or information provided by a member of the individual's family or any other person knowledgeable about the individual's personal religious beliefs that such a declaration would violate the personal religious beliefs of the individual. In these cases, death shall be declared, and the time of death fixed, solely upon the basis of cardio-respiratory criteria pursuant to section 2 of this act. L.1991,c.90,s.5.

 

[Karmady]

The reason I've brought it up and discussed it is because "brain death" IMO was adopted to make organ transplantation successful and much more common. There is no doubt the topics are related and interconnected, even if it has nothing to do with this specific child. Hard to discuss one without the other.

I'm not sure that's the reason it was adopted. Do you have a link for that. I do agree that the literature is inextriably bound, though. See my post above. I'm not faulting anyone for discussing it. jmo

 

[Deleted member 110058]

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfranci...ht-over-jahi-mcmaths-life/Content?oid=2663281

Here is an article just written by Chris Dolan. Pulls at my heart strings...

 

[redheadedgal]

https://www.facebook.com/www.nbli.org

https://www.facebook.com/brendanhouseproject

i always find it amusing when a page/person "likes" their all own posts :facepalm:

 

[Linda7NJ]

OMG, the mother says the nurse told her it is normal to bleed from the mouth.

“Sometime after the seemingly uneventful Dec. 9 surgery, Jahi was taken to the ICU and Winkfield said she was told the staff had to fix her ICU. About 45 minutes later, Jahi was brought back to her room and was sitting in bed, bleeding from her mouth.”

“"It was normal," Winkfield said the nursing staff told her.”

“Winkfield then said she asked for a doctor. Instead, she said she was given a bigger container for Jahi to bleed into, and later, a suction device to suction out the "increasing volume of blood," the court request states.”

Seriously......... a nurse is NOT going to tell a family member it's normal for a patient to bleed out of the mouth after they had a complicated surgery.



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

I don't get where people are buying into the whole "complicated surgery" thing. My husband had this exact same surgery and he was assured it was NO BIG DEAL by not only his doctor but by everyone else he met with and spoke to. I was there. I was there the entire time and there when consent forms were signed and AGAIN the risks were downplayed and even joked about. I will quote his surgeon, " haven't lost anyone yet...<insert chuckle>

So IMO it's totally in the realm of possibility someone else, her mother, has a similar experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk