Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[MyBelle]

I'll tell you what... I'm a card carrying organ donor and I would not want to live any longer if I were "brain dead", in a persistent coma, vegetative state...etc. my personal views have not changed.

However, all of this reading I'm doing in support of this mothers rights as a parent and citizen....it's ...ummm more than a little bothersome !!!


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If you were in a coma for only three days and your children believed you had been misdiagnosed and there was a possibility of recovery, would you still want the plug pulled immediately or would you want extra time?

This case does appear to me to be all about rushing the parent because a hospital administrator was focused on additional dollars.

I totally agree with you about the mother's rights as a parent. It is the actions of the hospital administrator, lawyer and PR consultant that shock me.

 

[jjenny]

But she might not be in New Jersey.

http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/...d-government-role-in-determining-brain-death/



I think someone posted this link previously.
http://www.braindeath.org/law/newjersey.htm

I presume it's due to a large Jewish population there.

 

[jjenny]

If you were in a coma for only three days and your children believed you had been misdiagnosed and there was a possibility of recovery, would you still want the plug pulled immediately or would you want extra time?

This case does appear to me to be all about rushing the parent because a hospital administrator was focused on additional dollars.

I totally agree with you about the mother's rights as a parent. It is the actions of the hospital administrator, lawyer and PR consultant that shock me.

The hospital was following the law in CA. They are not required to get permission from relatives to turn off life support from someone who is brain dead.
What they are required to do is to provide some reasonably short time for relatives to accept that patient is dead.
Which they provided.

 

[scubadvr99]

You also have to remember that the CT scan showed degeneration of the brain, and no blood flow.

I suppose they could repeat the CT scan and show even more degeneration. There are multiple tests and exams that are done.

I also have to state that the physicians that perform these tests are extremely aware of how emotional and sensitive the information is that they must convey. These are people that have to deal with inoperable tumors, severe brain disabilities, coma, vegetative states, and brain death. They regularly have to give devastating news to parents. These are kind and sensitive people who know they must tell the truth to parents. They are very strict in their examinations and not at all cavalier about interpreting the findings. Some issues are not black and white, but shades of grey. All the reports I have read about the physician reports on Jahi were unequivocal. She is brain dead. May she rest in peace.

I agree. This decision comes from multiple physicians, not just one. I didn't know about the CT reports. Very sad indeed.

 

[MyBelle]

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfranci...ht-over-jahi-mcmaths-life/Content?oid=2663281

Here is an article just written by Chris Dolan. Pulls at my heart strings...

It will be a miracle if that child ever leaves the hospital. I think the hospital will continue with the false promises to ensure her heart stops beating there.

Hospital PR man Sam Singer, a self-declared “fixer,” had previously said if we got a physician to do the tracheotomy, we could do it at Children’s. Then he changed that, saying no way. We lost a day on that false promise.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not sure that's the reason it was adopted. Do you have a link for that. I do agree that the literature is inextriably bound, though. See my post above. I'm not faulting anyone for discussing it. jmo

Yes, I've previously link it. Iirc it's the link with "catholic" in it on the last thread. HTH




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[Karmady]

I can't think of a reason for the Hospital to rush to ignore standards and determine brain death if organ transplantation wasn't their goal. That said, I think it's a moot point at this time because the parent would have to give her approval and she refused to believe the diagnosis of brain death.

I don't think there was any rush or any ignoring of the standards. As I've said, it's clear to me that the word "independent" in the rules modifies the confirmation, not the doc confirming. I'm also confident that up until that day Judge Grillo ruled, that's the way the rule was construed and applied. I looked and can't find anywhere in those rules that the word "independent" is defined. Dolan raised that issue and the Court said better safe than sorry, imo. There are strict grammatical rules of statutory construction and I have no doubt that rule will be construed to mean to doctors independent of each other, not of the institution.

But I agree with you that it's moot because, as I've said upthread, there's no way this parent would ever consent to organ donation, imo.


jmo

 

[Herat]

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfranci...ht-over-jahi-mcmaths-life/Content?oid=2663281

Here is an article just written by Chris Dolan. Pulls at my heart strings...

And that's exactly what it was intended to do.

Facts?

 

[Herat]

It will be a miracle if that child ever leaves the hospital. I think the hospital will continue with the false promises to ensure she dies there.

Hospital PR man Sam Singer, a self-declared “fixer,” had previously said if we got a physician to do the tracheotomy, we could do it at Children’s. Then he changed that, saying no way. We lost a day on that false promise.

That is your opinion.

She is already dead.

 

[SophieRose]

OMG, the mother says the nurse told her it is normal to bleed from the mouth.

“Sometime after the seemingly uneventful Dec. 9 surgery, Jahi was taken to the ICU and Winkfield said she was told the staff had to fix her ICU. About 45 minutes later, Jahi was brought back to her room and was sitting in bed, bleeding from her mouth.”

“"It was normal," Winkfield said the nursing staff told her.”

“Winkfield then said she asked for a doctor. Instead, she said she was given a bigger container for Jahi to bleed into, and later, a suction device to suction out the "increasing volume of blood," the court request states.”

Seriously......... a nurse is NOT going to tell a family member it's normal for a patient to bleed out of the mouth after they had a complicated surgery.



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

Have you looked up tonsillectomies and the other procedures on the web? Yes it is normal to bleed and the nurse may have told them that. It's the amount of bleeding that may not be normal.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think there was any rush or any ignoring of the standards. As I've said, it's clear to me that the word "independent" in the rules modifies the confirmation, not the doc confirming. I'm also confident that up until that day Judge Grillo ruled, that's the way the rule was construed and applied. I looked and can't find anywhere in those rules that the word "independent" is defined. Dolan raised that issue and the Court said better safe than sorry, imo. There are strict grammatical rules of statutory construction and I have no doubt that rule will be construed to mean to doctors independent of each other, not of the institution.

But I agree with you that it's moot because, as I've said upthread, there's no way this parent would ever consent to organ donation, imo.


jmo

The Judge decided the standard was not met. I guess he decided the definition of "independent" and that the hospital failed to meet it. It is Judges who decide those things and sometimes statutes are clarified with additional revisions.

 

[Linda7NJ]

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfranci...ht-over-jahi-mcmaths-life/Content?oid=2663281



Here is an article just written by Chris Dolan. Pulls at my heart strings...

I think he's fabulous!


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[Linda7NJ]

If you were in a coma for only three days and your children believed you had been misdiagnosed and there was a possibility of recovery, would you still want the plug pulled immediately or would you want extra time?



This case does appear to me to be all about rushing the parent because a hospital administrator was focused on additional dollars.



I totally agree with you about the mother's rights as a parent. It is the actions of the hospital administrator, lawyer and PR consultant that shock me.

My family knows my wishes, if they chose to give me more time... If that's what they need...so be it. I wouldn't be present.


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[Linda7NJ]

I presume it's due to a large Jewish population there.

What?


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[MyBelle]

I think he's fabulous!


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The world needs more like him.

I think he's truly enraged over the outrageous treatment of this family. I hope the Dept. of Health opens the financial books of this institution and investigates thoroughly.

 

[Karmady]

Yes, I've previously link it. Iirc it's the link with "catholic" in it on the last thread. HTH




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This one?

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0054.html

If so, I see the linkage temporally, but is there more to it than that?

 

[MyBelle]

My family knows my wishes, if they chose to give me more time... If that's what they need...so be it. I wouldn't be present.


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We're on the same page!

 

[Linda7NJ]

The hospital was following the law in CA. They are not required to get permission from relatives to turn off life support from someone who is brain dead.

What they are required to do is to provide some reasonably short time for relatives to accept that patient is dead.

Which they provided.

Which is exactly the part it have a problem with. She's a minor child with a mother. I don't believe the hospital, the law or anyone else has the right to terminate her parental rights because her daughter was gravely injured.


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[fruity]

What?


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It's different for Jewish people. Their religion states that they are still alive if their heart is beating (whether naturally or artificially).

 

[jjenny]

What?


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Religious beliefs. Orthodox Jews don't believe in brain death.