Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[J1981]

I think we need to see the judge's order from today. Conflicting news reports.



This one says they cannot bring in an outside physician:





Grillo refused the family's request to require doctors from the hospital or an outside physician to insert a feeding tube and a tracheostomy tube on Jahi.



http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Hospital-agrees-to-let-Jahi-McMath-family-take-5111584.php

I felt like this was the correct report. CHO can't agree to an outside doctor performing the surgeries in their hospital but they'll let her go and she can have the surgeries elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 110058]

BBM this is incorrect. CHO will not allow any doctor to operate on a dead body and have said so repeatedly.

Family can take Jahi's body 'as is', only transferring tubes to their own ventilator for transport. Nothing else.

After reading the entire article, doesn't seem clear as to what tubes they are referring to. Are you sure they are referring to the vent tubes?

 

[Karmady]

I think we need to see the judge's order from today. Conflicting news reports.

This one says they cannot bring in an outside physician:


Grillo refused the family's request to require doctors from the hospital or an outside physician to insert a feeding tube and a tracheostomy tube on Jahi.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Hospital-agrees-to-let-Jahi-McMath-family-take-5111584.php

Transfer team can come on the property to transfer vent tube, iv's etc. Doc cannot come on property to perform the two procedures mentioned in the quote you posted. I think they're consistent. jmo

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Thanks for the bits of humor everyone! I had my glass to my lips, but thank goodness, hadn't taken a drink yet when I read the atheist comment.

A athiest, questionable neuroscientist and unconventional neonatologist walk OUT of a bar....

eta: Oh crap, I forgot to include the lawyer

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_24840744/jahi-mcmath-mom-can-remove-brain-dead-daughter

"It's horrible that this child has died. It's also horrible that it's so difficult for her family to accept that death and I wish and I constantly think that, wouldn't it be great if they could come to terms with this terrible tragic event and I wouldn't have to stand in front of you time after time," said Douglas Straus, an attorney for the hospital, before choking up outside court.

I really feel for this poor guy

 

[Kimberlyd125]

This thread makes me so incredibly sad.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Thanks for the bits of humor everyone! I had my glass to my lips, but thank goodness, hadn't taken a drink yet when I read the atheist comment.

A athiest, questionable neuroscientist and unconventional neonatologist walk OUT of a bar....

eta: Oh crap, I forgot to include the lawyer

Oh man, you'll be spending the next year dealing with damage suits....

 

[momrids6]

The agreement calls for an outside medical team to move 13-year-old Jahi McMath from Children's Hospital Oakland and for her mother to take full responsibility for her body during the transfer to another facility. The family has until 5 p.m. Tuesday to transfer Jahi's body or the hospital can disconnect her life support.

In announcing the agreement, Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo denied the family's request to compel Children's Hospital or an outside physician to insert feeding and breathing tubes to facilitate the move.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/288264/158/Hospital-family-agree-on-transfer-of-brain-dead-girl

 

[Herat]

An now-- the hunt for Top Secret Care Facility is on.......

Cue the William Tell overture.........

 

[mck16]

I have to say this and I mean it in all sincerity. What will this do to the other family members if they take Jahil home? Aren't there other children there? There is the mother's husband and maybe more I don't know.

I would not want to live in a house with a corpse and I don't care who they are. How could they have friends over? Or would their friends come over out of curiosity. I just think it is a bleak situation and I hope they do not do it. jmo

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I have to say this and I mean it in all sincerity. What will this do to the other family members if they take Jahil home? Aren't there other children there? There is the mother's husband and maybe more I don't know.

I would not want to live in a house with a corpse and I don't care who they are. How could they have friends over? Or would their friends come over out of curiosity. I just think it is a bleak situation and I hope they do not do it. jmo

It would be just like anyone else on life support. As far as people being around.
The diagnosis doesn't make it "different" to be around. It looks and sounds the same.
IMO it would be like being around a family member who is on a vent. Not a corpse.


JMO

ETA: not that I'm saying I think she should be moved to her family's house, I was just responding to your question.

 

[popsicle]

Laura Anthony ‏@LauraAnthony7 7m
#Jahi hearing parties just taking a break. Settlement conference NOT over...4 hours and counting in Fed Court in Oakland.

 

[mck16]

It would be just like anyone else on life support. As far as people being around.
The diagnosis doesn't make it "different" to be around. It looks and sounds the same.
IMO it would be like being around a family member who is on a vent. Not a corpse.

JMO

Depending on the ages, I think that because of all this hoop la, everyone has heard the terms 'brain dead', and 'dead'. I don't think it would be just like someone on life support. Not for me at least. jmo

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Depending on the ages, I think that because of all this hoop la, everyone has heard the terms 'brain dead', and 'dead'. I don't think it would be just like someone on life support. Not for me at least. jmo

I just don't think a person laying in a bed on a vent is what most people think of when they hear the term corpse.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I found this interesting.

A BRAIN-DEAD BODY CAN STILL FUNCTION
Many doctors consider this an appropriate definition and say that misdiagnoses are rare. Others have a problem with the very concept and say that brain death is not enough. They point to the fact that a brain-dead pregnant mother can continue to gestate and give birth, and the body can eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, and fight infections.[8]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811205_4


See that's why I can't refer to her as a corpse. To me, a corpse can not continue to gestate and give birth, eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, or fight infections.

JMO

 

[animlzrule]

This case has the potential to set such a damaging precedent. To think that people, through their own ignorance (and I don't mean that as a pejorative, I truly don't think this family intellectually understands the physiology of what has gone on with this child, and have limitations due to their religious beliefs) have been allowed to perpetuate this farce of continued legal proceedings after a declaration of brain death….it's mind boggling. I feel like I'm in bizzaro world or something. What, every time a family member doesn't like, believe, trust, or agree with the inevitability of death, are the courts going to be having to interject in this manner? This is absolutely ridiculous. That vent should have been court ordered to be turned off when the declaration of brain death was made. Period.

 

[newmrsc]

I found this interesting.

A BRAIN-DEAD BODY CAN STILL FUNCTION
Many doctors consider this an appropriate definition and say that misdiagnoses are rare. Others have a problem with the very concept and say that brain death is not enough. They point to the fact that a brain-dead pregnant mother can continue to gestate and give birth, and the body can eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, and fight infections.[8]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811205_4


See that's why I can't refer to her as a corpse. To me, a corpse can not continue to gestate and give birth, eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, or fight infections.

JMO

I think we can all agree (maybe? I don't know!) that brain death challenges our common perceptions of death. We far more often think of the cardiopulmonary definition. The idea of a 'corpse' then has certain connotations to us all. It's difficult to use that word in these situations, IMO. I think that's really the crux of this whole issue, that it challenges our long-standing ideas and perceptions and it's uncomfortable to think about. But legally, statutorily, a brain dead person is deceased. I agree it's hard to think of it as a corpse when it can still in many regards function, but I also find it critical to remember that it's functioning ONLY because of artificial means. A brain dead body would not do all of these things without extraordinary measures - a ventilator to keep oxygenating the body so the heart can beat. And there's no chance of recovery. I know I'm just reiterating what's already been said, but I just had to comment that yes, it's hard to see it that way, and maybe corpse is the wrong word to use in this situation...but as I posed upthread yesterday, under the California law I believe her body does fall under the definition of human remains at this point, hard as that is to wrap our minds around. JMO and all that.

 

[Herat]

This case has the potential to set such a damaging precedent. To think that people, through their own ignorance (and I don't mean that as a pejorative, I truly don't think this family intellectually understands the physiology of what has gone on with this child, and have limitations due to their religious beliefs) have been allowed to perpetuate this farce of continued legal proceedings after a declaration of brain death….it's mind boggling. I feel like I'm in bizzaro world or something. What, every time a family member doesn't like, believe, trust, or agree with the inevitability of death, are the courts going to be having to interject in this manner? This is absolutely ridiculous. That vent should have been court ordered to be turned off when the declaration of brain death was made. Period.

I also think the fact that her mother and grandmother were there when she started massive bleeding and the PICU jumped into Code Blue mode make this all the more stunning and dramatic. I don't want to denigrate anyone's grief, but the shock of seeing her bleeding and the collapse starts this surreal journey. Then, an attorney shows up and takes over.

Would it have been any easier if she had had a drowning or a stroke or a gunshot, or something that didn't happen in front of their eyes? I don't know.

 

[meanmaryjean]

I am involved in a discussion on a nursing forum.

The following has been proposed: What if, instead of referring to it as 'life support' the term were changed- for brain dead individuals - to 'organ support'?

 

[MEN3C]

I found this interesting.

A BRAIN-DEAD BODY CAN STILL FUNCTION
Many doctors consider this an appropriate definition and say that misdiagnoses are rare. Others have a problem with the very concept and say that brain death is not enough. They point to the fact that a brain-dead pregnant mother can continue to gestate and give birth, and the body can eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, and fight infections.[8]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811205_4


See that's why I can't refer to her as a corpse. To me, a corpse can not continue to gestate and give birth, eliminate cell waste, heal wounds, or fight infections.

JMO

"Function" is a word that I am not sure applies. The body would not be able to function without artificial means. It's the machines making it function. It's like a heart that is removed from the body (or soon enough, grown in a lab) and placed in saline solution. It "functions" by your definition and the individual cells composing it are still alive, but is it a human being at that point? I think not.