Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

[Softail]

I don't know if I can type this post...but will see how far I get, I guess.

.

Snipped for space.....


:hug: I'm so sorry for your losses. :rose:

Several years ago my most beloved aunt died while in Austria. My cousin, her daughter, was devastated. They were not only mom and daughter, but the best of friends. My aunt had breast cancer. She was cancer free for some time. She was a massive workaholic and wouldn't let the cancer stand in her way.

She was in Austria on business when she died. The cancer had reached her brain.

Since she died in a foreign country, it was difficult to get her body back to the states. In addition, they don't embalm people in Europe. At least at that time they didn't. It took probably 2 weeks to get her home and to a funeral home. The funeral home suggested a closed casket, as she had decomposed so badly during all this time. My cousin would have none of that! She INSISTED on an open casket so everyone could see her mother. I tried to talk her out of it, but she wouldn't have it. She was grief stricken.

The funeral home did their best to make her look like my aunt. I could barley look at her, as she just didn't look like the wonderful woman she was.. I found it sad. My cousin, found peace with it. She cried and cried when she saw her, as she knew she didn't look anything like her mother. It was her decision and we as a family respected that decision. We supported her as a family.

Having shared all of that, I do have so much compassion for unconventional things that happen with a death. However, I also feel that what is happening to Jahi McMath right now is not just unconventional, it is down right cruel, almost criminal, and deceitful. I just don't see the intention as anything but greedy, Jahi be damned.

And that my friends is my opinion!

 

[Isabelle]

The people, (medical staff) that tended to her have my utmost respect and sympathy. I would not have done it, that's just me.

Elley, while studying to be a nurse, the one thing we were drilled on was to always provide support, to listen and try to guide to be non-judgmental and if unsuccessful continue to provide support.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Quick break to send much love, hugs and coffee to Softail and PoirotryInMotion.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

Now back to our regular programming.

 

[gitana1]

If you are stating you are an advocate for allowing people to do whatever they want with a corpse - in essence allow a parent to "make the choice" to sit and watch their child DECOMPOSE before their eyes - then clearly we will never be on the same page.

However, I respect your right to a differing opinion and wish you the best in your "fight for justice".

I'm not at all understanding how my comments can be interpreted to mean I think anyone should be able to do whatever they want with a corpse. A bit of perspective, please. Let's be rational here.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I'm not at all understanding how my comments can be interpreted to mean I think anyone should be able to do whatever they want with a corpse. A bit of perspective, please. Let's be rational here.

May I ask you if you personally believe brain death = death? I'm trying to understand your point of view and I'm trying to stay respectful.

 

[otto]

Here, it looks like the lawyer is coaching the family to minimize the surgeries that were done. I doubt that she was scheduled to go to ICU after surgery and scheduled to go home the following day. That doesn't sound right.

"GRACE: Omari Sealy, why did she need the tonsillectomy to start with?

SEALY: She had sleep apnea, and there was a sleep study done to say that this operation or this simple procedure, rather, would give her a better quality of life. My sister, she was a little apprehensive about it, so she got a second opinion, and they said, yes, she definitely is going to need this. It is going to give her a better quality of life. A simple procedure, she would go home the next day."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/ng.01.html

 

[dh109977]

Here, it looks like the lawyer is coaching the family to minimize the surgeries that were done. I doubt that she was scheduled to go to ICU after surgery and scheduled to go home the following day. That doesn't sound right.

"GRACE: Omari Sealy, why did she need the tonsillectomy to start with?

SEALY: She had sleep apnea, and there was a sleep study done to say that this operation or this simple procedure, rather, would give her a better quality of life. My sister, she was a little apprehensive about it, so she got a second opinion, and they said, yes, she definitely is going to need this. It is going to give her a better quality of life. A simple procedure, she would go home the next day."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/ng.01.html

A simple tonsillectomy is in most cases a same day surgery. But I highly doubt with her history it would be considered simple at all. Sounds to me like the lawyer and family is basing this on a normal healthy person who simply needs their tonsils out. Not someone who suffers from sleep apnea etc.

 

[SeekingJana]

Elley, while studying to be a nurse, the one thing we were drilled on was to always provide support, to listen and try to guide to be non-judgmental and if unsuccessful continue to provide support.

Yes, we were taught the same when I was studying to be a nurse ( mid to late 1970's). I hope compassionate care and support even in adverse circumstances is still being taught to nursing students.... I don't know, though.. Things have changed in the 21st century, IMO, and I'm glad I left active nursing practice for another part of health care.

 

[Elley Mae]

Here, it looks like the lawyer is coaching the family to minimize the surgeries that were done. I doubt that she was scheduled to go to ICU after surgery and scheduled to go home the following day. That doesn't sound right.

"GRACE: Omari Sealy, why did she need the tonsillectomy to start with?

SEALY: She had sleep apnea, and there was a sleep study done to say that this operation or this simple procedure, rather, would give her a better quality of life. My sister, she was a little apprehensive about it, so she got a second opinion, and they said, yes, she definitely is going to need this. It is going to give her a better quality of life. A simple procedure, she would go home the next day."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/ng.01.html

This coming from the uncle that was not there. Again I ask why is he talking?

 

[Donjeta]

One more thought about brain death, religious freedom and medical ethics. Then I'll stop, I promise.

I don't really have a problem with doctors saying that brain death does not mean that the person is dead because [insert holy scripture of your choice] says that only the heart stopping means that a person is dead. Personally I don't believe that any of the usual religious scriptures of any of the old religions take any real stand in this issue because they were all written before the distinction was even an issue. Everybody who was brain dead was cardiac dead too and vice versa so there was no need to even think about it before modern life support. But if you find something that you can interpret to support this opinion, fine, it's your religious freedom, even if you're a doctor. If they said that people can be falsely diagnosed as brain dead they would be correct, and if that argument is used to support a position regarding life support or organ transplants, that is fine.

What I have a huge problem with are religious doctors who go against the accepted medical science and say that brain death is not death because brain dead people can recover and frequently do. There is currently no research to support that so scientifically it's either incompetence or a lie. This is a medical claim so it needs to be supported by medical science.

That is not to say that the accepted medical science can't be wrong, it frequently is and accepted truths change. There was a professor in medicine who used to tell his students that half of what you've been taught is wrong but we don't know which half. But if you think something is wrong, what you need is more research, not unsupported claims based on religion. For instance, you might find a subgroup of patients who are diagnosed as brain dead on current criteria but up until now people have not considered factor X which can protect the unperfused brain and make recovery possible for this subgroup of people, and then you could suggest improvements in the diagnostic criteria so that doctors could better recognize these people.

 

[MaybeNotToday]

Here, it looks like the lawyer is coaching the family to minimize the surgeries that were done. I doubt that she was scheduled to go to ICU after surgery and scheduled to go home the following day. That doesn't sound right.



"GRACE: Omari Sealy, why did she need the tonsillectomy to start with?



SEALY: She had sleep apnea, and there was a sleep study done to say that this operation or this simple procedure, rather, would give her a better quality of life. My sister, she was a little apprehensive about it, so she got a second opinion, and they said, yes, she definitely is going to need this. It is going to give her a better quality of life. A simple procedure, she would go home the next day."



http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/ng.01.html

Now the part about a "simple procedure" is a flat out lie - or is he saying the doctor lied?

My very routine tonsillectomy was outpatient. THAT's a "simple procedure" and even then, it had potential for real problems.

They're making it sound like she went in for a cavity filling

 

[otto]

A simple tonsillectomy is in most cases a same day surgery. But I highly doubt with her history it would be considered simple at all. Sounds to me like the lawyer and family is basing this on a normal healthy person who simply needs their tonsils out. Not someone who suffers from sleep apnea etc.

The family has always maintained that the child was completely healthy and that this was a routine tonsillectomy. Court documents have revealed more facts about the case. There was nothing routine about the surgeries that this child needed in order to have a better quality of life.

She had numerous health issues. She had three surgeries, all related to breathing problems. Although the surgeries were described as "elective", I think they were necessary. When my son had brain surgery, it was also described as "elective", but without the surgery he would have had severe brain damage. I came to understand "elective" as meaning that everyone knows it's necessary, but no one is going to force anyone to have the surgery since it's not yet a life and death situation.

 

[Steft50]

If Jahi is dead, how is she being abused? If Jahi is dead, how are they not allowing her to die a dignified death? She's already dead. The dying process is over. Here's what I stated previously about dignity for Jahi:

Jahi's soul is in heaven. She experiences none of this. We show dignity to bodies out of respect for the family. We know what her family wants.

And it's not as if Jahi's corpse is being drop kicked all over the place. Or otherwise desecrated. What's happening to her body is the physical manifestation of her family's pain and horror. But for them, it is enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. Jahi has all the dignity a child could ever have, in the enduring, passionate love of her traumatized family.

BBM
In the short time I've read or participated here I don't think I have ever disagreed with what you have said. I'm sorry I do over this. I feel we respect the dead, and the bodies of the dead because we respect the person they were before death. I have known people to die who I had no consideration for their families but I totally adored the person who died.

 

[dh109977]

The family has always maintained that the child was completely healthy and that this was a routine tonsillectomy. Court documents have revealed more facts about the case. There was nothing routine about the surgeries that this child needed in order to have a better quality of life.

She had numerous health issues. She had three surgeries, all related to breathing problems. Although the surgeries were described as "elective", I think they were necessary. When my son had brain surgery, it was also described as "elective", but without the surgery he would have had severe brain damage. I came to understand "elective" as meaning that everyone knows it's necessary, but no one is going to force anyone to have the surgery since it's not yet a life and death situation.

Yeah I know that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It was made to sound like a routine procedure when my husband had the exact same surgery two years ago.
And he Did not stay overnight. It was an outpatient surgery.

So I do NOT have a hard time believing this mother was lead to believe it was no big deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[threecrazykids]

I'm not at all understanding how my comments can be interpreted to mean I think anyone should be able to do whatever they want with a corpse. A bit of perspective, please. Let's be rational here.

First you quoted:
IMO, this is not enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. This is distracting them for coping, facing and accepting the process. The encouragement from other sources to continue on with false stories of recovered brain dead relatives is furthering the denial.

This is not healthy and as a society we should help those that are not healthy. We shouldn't encourage them to stay unhealthy by agreeing with them or telling them lies.

When and where does it stop? It has already been implemented in law that brain death is death. Does society entertain everyone that doesn't feel their relative is dead and we just throw everything out the window and say they can take deceased individuals home to do with as they please, or put them in facilities that are unlicensed and allow them to be experimented on by those that don't feel brain death is death?

Do we sit back and watch while the court systems are tied up with cases of those that don't want to allow the deceased go, despite laws and all medical criteria being established that they are indeed deceased?

IMO, Jahi is not being given respect and dignity by those directly involved with this mission and I have a right to stand up for this child if I wish. Even the deceased deserve dignity and respect and this precious child most certainly does.

And YOU said:
That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it. Not everyone does.


Then you quoted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by threecrazykids View Post
Her BODY is being abused, not her spirit. I am referring to the treatment and dignity of her corpse.
We, as a society, have thankfully passed laws as a whole about the mistreatment of corpses. We simply can't allow people to just do whatever they want until they come to grips with that corpses final resting place.

And I beg to differ with you that her body isn't being "drop kicked" all over the place. What they are doing with her body (in essence allowing it to rot from the inside out) is worse than drop kicking it. Her tissues are breaking down, fluids are leaking, and the body itself is literally decomposing on a hospital bed. You think that's ok as long as the parents are willing to sit around and watch it? That is not enduring, passionate love of a family. I'm sorry. It's mentally unstable to want to sit and watch your child decompose while you take your time accepting the reality of what lies before them.

And YOU said:
See my comment above (AKA: That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it.)


I believe I am being rational
How can I NOT think that you're not advocating the opposite of what we said?
You replied to BOTH of our posts stating you don't happen to share our opinions - both of which were advocating for the basis of laws that do NOT allow the mistreatment of corpses (which would IMO include families giving the "right" to take however long they "need" with a corpse to "accept" a persons death).

:dunno:

 

[dh109977]

It was made to sound like a routine procedure when my husband had the exact same surgery two years ago.
And he Did not stay overnight. It was an outpatient surgery.

So I do NOT have a hard time believing this mother was lead to believe it was no big deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See I can't imagine a dr would not tell the risks. I just had my gallbladder out a few months back. The surgeon explained what was gonna happen. But he also explained what would happen had their been a complication. Ok I asked alot of questions maybe that would be the difference. I would imagine they would of told me even without asking no?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thank you, Zuri. Jahi is dead. She's in heaven. There is no need to advocate for her anymore. I'm sorry you feel the family is no longer worthy of empathy. I don't have that opinion.

I'm just super sensitive to people in the throes of grief. There's nothing worse.
My feelings on this issue and whether or not this family should be "forced" to accept would be different if Jahi was suffering. She is not. Her family is.

They brought their baby in for a routine operation. She was scared. Thy assured her. They were wrong and she suddenly died. That is an incredible trauma to bear. Yet now they are expected to accept what the medical establishment is telling them. And people are actually criticizing their shock by saying, "Well, complications are expected in every operation." as if they had no right to be shocked. Come on.

I believe this was not handled by the hospital as best as it could've been. I greatly admire health care professionals for the most part. But not all are heroes.

Well said.

As usual, we are in total agreement on this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Indianagirl]

A simple tonsillectomy is in most cases a same day surgery. But I highly doubt with her history it would be considered simple at all. Sounds to me like the lawyer and family is basing this on a normal healthy person who simply needs their tonsils out. Not someone who suffers from sleep apnea etc.

I agree. Alone a simple/routine T&A can even be done in an outpatient ambulatory surgery center. The fact that Jahi was scheduled to go to the ICU for a portion of her recovery before the multiple procedures were even started tells me this was anything but simple/routine. JMO

 

[newmrsc]

Dolan wants families, not doctors, to decide when a patient is dead.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-jahi-lawyer-life-and-death-20140107,0,1598073.story?track=rss#axzz2pkyd94Bo