Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

[CHERIE.T]

I have to wonder what quality of life they hope to see in someone that was declared dead a month ago.

IMOO the family is truly blind or they've chosen to be blind to that very thing.
The family is doing nothing more than keeping a corpse alive for their own reasons. No quality of live there IMOO.

 

[gitana1]

IMO, this is not enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. This is distracting them for coping, facing and accepting the process. The encouragement from other sources to continue on with false stories of recovered brain dead relatives is furthering the denial.

This is not healthy and as a society we should help those that are not healthy. We shouldn't encourage them to stay unhealthy by agreeing with them or telling them lies.

When and where does it stop? It has already been implemented in law that brain death is death. Does society entertain everyone that doesn't feel their relative is dead and we just throw everything out the window and say they can take deceased individuals home to do with as they please, or put them in facilities that are unlicensed and allow them to be experimented on by those that don't feel brain death is death?

Do we sit back and watch while the court systems are tied up with cases of those that don't want to allow the deceased go, despite laws and all medical criteria being established that they are indeed deceased?

IMO, Jahi is not being given respect and dignity by those directly involved with this mission and I have a right to stand up for this child if I wish. Even the deceased deserve dignity and respect and this precious child most certainly does.

That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it. Not everyone does.

Her BODY is being abused, not her spirit. I am referring to the treatment and dignity of her corpse.
We, as a society, have thankfully passed laws as a whole about the mistreatment of corpses. We simply can't allow people to just do whatever they want until they come to grips with that corpses final resting place.

And I beg to differ with you that her body isn't being "drop kicked" all over the place. What they are doing with her body (in essence allowing it to rot from the inside out) is worse than drop kicking it. Her tissues are breaking down, fluids are leaking, and the body itself is literally decomposing on a hospital bed. You think that's ok as long as the parents are willing to sit around and watch it? That is not enduring, passionate love of a family. I'm sorry. It's mentally unstable to want to sit and watch your child decompose while you take your time accepting the reality of what lies before them.

See my comment above.

 

[Donjeta]

Resoectfullt, I think its an intellectually dishonest argument. I think moving to "Jahi's siblings are bring tormented" is the logical next step in the rage against this family now that the poor hospital staff and other patients aren't being traumatized. That's my opinion.

Many children have to deal with the death of a sibling. Many are much more horrific than this. Like the little girl who died of cancer at home after a 7 month fight, recently and all the town sang carols outside her home as she died. Or countless vegetative or terminal children with things like MS or other disorders who slowly waste away as their family watches.

That's no abuse. It's life. It's death. And since they dont have to witness Jahi screaming in pain for days or panicking because she can't breathe, as many children dying of cancer do, this just gives them more time to adjust to the death of their sister.

If you mean multiple sclerosis it's rather rare in children and it is even rarer for someone to die of MS as a child. The average life expectancy of MS patients is the same or just a few years less than the general population.

http://www.msfocus.org/multiple-sclerosis-faqs.aspx

Many children experience grief and survive unscathed with the support of their loved ones and can get outside help if needed but even so I hope these children are shielded from witnessing Jahi's bodily decline if she starts showing very obvious postmortem deterioration and doesn't look glowing and healthy any more. It would probably be easier to remember her as the smiling, laughing Jahi they knew.

 

[Kaliste]

Thank you, Zuri. Jahi is dead. She's in heaven. There is no need to advocate for her anymore. I'm sorry you feel the family is no longer worthy of empathy. I don't have that opinion.

I'm just super sensitive to people in the throes of grief. There's nothing worse.
My feelings on this issue and whether or not this family should be "forced" to accept would be different if Jahi was suffering. She is not. Her family is.

They brought their baby in for a routine operation. She was scared. Thy assured her. They were wrong and she suddenly died. That is an incredible trauma to bear. Yet now they are expected to accept what the medical establishment is telling them. And people are actually criticizing their shock by saying, "Well, complications are expected in every operation." as if they had no right to be shocked. Come on.

I believe this was not handled by the hospital as best as it could've been. I greatly admire health care professionals for the most part. But not all are heroes.

I feel so terrible for Jahis mother, siblings, classmates, friends, the nurses who treated her and all those who loved and cares for this bubbly girl.

Uncle O makes me feel icky. His tweets and interviews and IG posts are bizarre (IMO) and narcissistic (IMO). His saying things during interviews such as "the money is what it's all about" while Jahis mother has to interrupt and remind him it's about Jahi hurts my heart. Their own lawyer posted a now deleted picture of himself posing with Chuck E Cheese and a terrible comment about the hospital spokesman.

THOSE are the people surrounding and "supporting" NW through this. Watching the interviews and reading the family and atty's own tweets make it clear to me this is no longer about Jahi or patient rights or religious freedoms but money and teaching the hospital a lesson while holding a dead body of a once bubbly child hostage. It's terrible, I've never seen anything like it.

All in my very uneducated opinion!

 

[sorrell skye]

If Jahi is dead, how is she being abused? If Jahi is dead, how are they not allowing her to die a dignified death? She's already dead. The dying process is over. Here's what I stated previously about dignity for Jahi:

Jahi's soul is in heaven. She experiences none of this. We show dignity to bodies out of respect for the family. We know what her family wants.

And it's not as if Jahi's corpse is being drop kicked all over the place. Or otherwise desecrated. What's happening to her body is the physical manifestation of her family's pain and horror. But for them, it is enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. Jahi has all the dignity a child could ever have, in the enduring, passionate love of her traumatized family.

Above BBM

I believe we also show dignity to the deceased out of respect for the deceased.

When I heard about this case a few weeks ago, my immediate reaction was compassion for Jahi's poor mother, as I believed she must have been traumatized and struggling (and still is) to come to grips with the sudden loss of her beautiful little girl.

I continue to have compassion for Jahi's mother. My heart breaks for her.

However, after reading numerous articles containing information regarding the horrendous processes that little Jahi's body is probably currently undergoing (including what has likely happened to her brain these past weeks due to lack of blood flow) I feel that her little body is not being shown the dignity & respect it deserves as the vessel that once housed the precious spirit that was Jahi.

 

[fruity]

If you could have any information about what really happened, what would be most important to you?

For me: I would want to know at what point in time was the surgeon notified of the patient's excessive bleeding, what amount of blood was collected as a result of the bleeding and what was the surgeon's response?

Good question! I think I would want to know the same as you.

 

[otto]

I totally agree. It's horrifying for me to think that someone actively chooses, vociferously advocates and litigates, in fact, to watch their child's dead body decay before their very eyes. It makes me literally gag to imagine this happening to my child in my presence. Am I unique in that regard? I hope not! jmo

I think that is why this is so horrifying for people that understand brain death. People that do not understand brain death seem to think that what is happening with the body is part of the recovery process. I can't imagine that anyone that understands brain death would advocate this treatment of a dead body.

Here is Dr Flori's report. There is nothing dignified about what is happening with the deceased.

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

 

[gitana1]

Rbbm

IMO this is a very slippery slope: that we shouldn't advocate for people if they're dead. I can think of many situations where it would have been gravely remiss of us not to fight to advocate for the rights of someone who died. Isn't that what we do here much of the time? People here advocate for JonBenet, for the Routier boys and for Baby P. And rightfully so, moo.

You know that fighting for justice for a person who died as a result of being the victim of crime is completely different than what we are discussing here. Come on now. IMO, it is intellectual dishonesty to pretend that days and weeks of passionate outrage against this family and disbelief at their actions and feelings has anything to do with protecting Jahi, her corpse, her siblings or fighting for justice for her.

 

[nrdsb4]

Did Jahi over bleed at any time during surgery?

To know the definitive answer to that, we would need access to the medical record. The hospital does not have the legal right to release medical records without the family's permission unless a court ordered them to do so as part of a legal action.

 

[otto]

Unfortunately none of us arrived on this earth with a user's guide.

Hopefully our parents provided us with an understanding of life and death. There should be no ambiguity between the two.

 

[gitana1]

I feel so terrible for Jahis mother, siblings, classmates, friends, the nurses who treated her and all those who loved and cares for this bubbly girl.

Uncle O makes me feel icky. His tweets and interviews and IG posts are bizarre (IMO) and narcissistic (IMO). His saying things during interviews such as "the money is what it's all about" while Jahis mother has to interrupt and remind him it's about Jahi hurts my heart. Their own lawyer posted a now deleted picture of himself posing with Chuck E Cheese and a terrible comment about the hospital spokesman.

THOSE are the people surrounding and "supporting" NW through this. Watching the interviews and reading the family and atty's own tweets make it clear to me this is no longer about Jahi or patient rights or religious freedoms but money and teaching the hospital a lesson while holding a dead body of a once bubbly child hostage. It's terrible, I've never seen anything like it.

All in my very uneducated opinion!

His statements are interpreted through the prism of our own biases. I think he is talking about the hospital not wanting to spend money keeping Jahi's body alive.

 

[Softail]

I totally agree. It's horrifying for me to think that someone actively chooses, vociferously advocates and litigates, in fact, to watch their child's dead body decay before their very eyes. It makes me literally gag to imagine this happening to my child in my presence. Am I unique in that regard? I hope not! jmo

:nono: Nope! I totally agree with you! For anyone to suggest that this is normal behavior or part of the grieving process, just boggles my mind. In my opinion the intentions are as clear to me as the sky is blue!

Rbbm

IMO this is a very slippery slope: that we shouldn't advocate for people if they're dead. I can think of many situations where it would have been gravely remiss of us not to fight to advocate for the rights of someone who died. Isn't that what we do here much of the time? People here advocate for JonBenet, for the Routier boys and for Baby P. And rightfully so, moo.

Exactly!!!!! If nobody were to advocate for VICTIMS or the dead, then WS wouldn't be here! Jahi is the true victim here! Yes, I do believe that what is happening to her right now is a crime. IMO

 

[fruity]

You know that fighting fir justice for a person who died as a resultvof being the victim of crime is completely different than what we are discussing here. Come on now. IMO, it is intellectual dishonesty to pretend that days and weeks of passionate outrage against this family and disbelief at their actions and feelings has anything to do with protecting Jahi, her corpse, her siblings or fighting for justice for her.

I disagree.

I can't multiquote, I'm on my phone.

Regarding the siblings: the law often steps in to protect siblings if there is risk of harm in the home. This is not a "dishonest" argument. There are valid concerns for what they are going through.

Regarding Jahi's body: performing procedures on a deceased person is legally classified as abuse of a corpse. Again, not a dishonest argument.

 

[threecrazykids]

That's your opinion. I don't happen to share it. Not everyone does.



See my comment above.

If you are stating you are an advocate for allowing people to do whatever they want with a corpse - in essence allow a parent to "make the choice" to sit and watch their child DECOMPOSE before their eyes - then clearly we will never be on the same page.

However, I respect your right to a differing opinion and wish you the best in your "fight for justice".

 

[CHERIE.T]

To know the definitive answer to that, we would need access to the medical record. The hospital does not have the legal right to release medical records without the family's permission unless a court ordered them to do so as part of a legal action.

My comment was in reply to the quote below:
Originally Posted by Isabelle

If you could have any information about what really happened, what would be most important to you?

For me: I would want to know at what point in time was the surgeon notified of the patient's excessive bleeding, what amount of blood was collected as a result of the bleeding and what was the surgeon's response?

Yes I know ....guess I should have said my question was actually rhetorical and a reply to Isabelle's question.
welcome nrdsb4

 

[Donjeta]

His statements are interpreted through the prism of our own biases. I think he is talking about the hospital not wanting to spend money keeping Jahi's body alive.

I think the quote that people are talking about referred to lawsuits and not the cost of maintaining Jahi on a ventilator (although they may have mentioned that too at some point)

I'm not clear on what the legal terms for the respective lawsuits are but the essence of the argument was that if the child was dead the hospital would only have to pay damages up to 250.000 dollars but if she was still alive and disabled it could go up to 30 million dollars, and that was the hospital's motive for wanting Jahi dead.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I don't know if I can type this post...but will see how far I get, I guess.

This past summer brought with it the deaths of 3 family members, including my husband's mother and my mother who died 3 weeks apart. His mom's death was somewhat expected as her health had been steadily declining for several years--though it was still a shock when we showed up for a visit only to discover she'd passed away 20 minutes before we got there.

My mother's death 3 weeks later was completely unexpected. As the ER doctor showed us the results of her scan that night showing massive cerebral hemorrhage, we had to intellectually accept her imminent death immediately--though as of today, I know I'm still avoiding dealing with it emotionally. We had to because there was our dad (her husband of 63 years) to support and comfort as we gathered and waited out that long, bad night...and then a funeral to plan to adequately honor her memory and to love on Dad and all the people who'd had a part in loving her all these years. I guess I'm sharing this to say I understand in a real way that grieving can take years to really sink in and/or accept when it's close family. We can surprise ourselves with the things we say and do under the stress of it, sometimes. So, for me, while I concede that the family (especially the uncle) has made some very unfortunate remarks (even damning ones that are likely to be totally unmerited and unfounded), I'm willing to offer them some grace in measure of how close they were to the deceased.

That said...if ANY medical professional or ANY legal professional had lied to me or misrepresented to me my mother's condition during a time when my family and I were at our most vulnerable, my disgust and anger would probably know no bounds. That is what angers me about this case. In these situations people want to be able to trust the professionals involved...they need to, because they need the truth no matter how much it hurts. So much of this case as it escalated seemed to be an orchestrated uproar by a few supposedly professional people claiming outrageous things and who seemingly have the brains to know better. That is what makes me angry, because if I sense they're not stupid, then that opens up the possibility to me that they're deliberately ignoring the truth and manipulating a grievous situation for some lesser, personal gain. My own response to that sort of possibility is usually to try to channel my contempt for that into some sort of positive counteraction (from twitter posts to article or editorial writing). All we can really do if we believe a certain media case or situation has bigger legal/moral repercussions (and I do think this one does) is to try our darndest to respectfully call out what's false and wrong, and to try to trump it with what's true or good.

 

[otto]

You know that fighting for justice for a person who died as a result of being the victim of crime is completely different than what we are discussing here. Come on now. IMO, it is intellectual dishonesty to pretend that days and weeks of passionate outrage against this family and disbelief at their actions and feelings has anything to do with protecting Jahi, her corpse, her siblings or fighting for justice for her.

I fail to see how her corpse is being protected.

NOTE: This may be disturbing for some.

January 3, 2014

"She has not had evidence of bowel functioning (sounds) for weeks. Yesterday (January 2), she passed some stool that was clinically consistent with the defecation of the tissues lining the bowel (i.e., her body is sloughing her gut)."

"Although we are applying inhaled therapy twice daily to improve the body's "pulmonary toilet" (its clearance of pulmonary respiratory secretions), it's secretions are continuing to change adversely with time. They are now more malodorous, change in color (sometimes tan, creamy or bloody) and thicker in consistency."

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/HeidiFlori.pdf

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

it seems like it is getting a little personal and passive aggressive in here so this is my chance to chime in and just thank everyone here for sharing some great links to good articles, your knowledge, your ideas, your thoughts and insights. Jahi's situation has made a lot of people think about things that are (a) tough to think about and yet (b) important to think about. IMO too of course. Thanks all.

 

[gitana1]

What is a reasonable amount of time, after someone has been declared dead, for the body to be artificially sustained so the family can come to terms with the death?

Nature makes that decision for us pretty quickly. But I think what's reasonable varies on a case by case basis. It is rare for families to hold on for long with hope after brain death and only a few have religious beliefs that mandate the body by preserved. So I think the shrieks about "precedent" reflect hysteria more than reality.

Also, those who believe Jahi's corpse will visibility rot in front of everyone's eyes need to research a bit more. Her heart will stop soon, within days, I'm betting.