Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
gitana1 said:
Motl Brody, 12, of Brooklyn, fell into a coma in June after an operation on a brain tumor at the Children's National Medical Center in Washington. He was pronounced dead last week after doctors at the hospital concluded the seventh-grader's brain ceased functioning.

His Orthodox Jewish parents, however, say the boy still has a heartbeat and is considered alive according to their religion.

Under some interpretations of Jewish religious law, including the one accepted by the family's Hasidic sect, death occurs only when the heart and lungs stop functioning.

That means Motl "is alive, and his family has a religious obligation to secure all necessary and appropriate medical treatment to keep him alive," the family's attorney wrote in a court filing last week. http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/1...pull-plug-on-brain-dead-boy-arguments-resume/
Click to expand...

What was the outcome of that situation in 2008? Was that child breathing independently or was a machine forcing the heart to function? That is, was the heart actually functioning?
 
otto said:
What was the outcome of that situation in 2008? Was that child breathing independently or was a machine forcing the heart to function? That is, was the heart actually functioning?
Click to expand...


Did this family invite the world to antagonize the hospital?
 
gitana1 said:
I agree with some of what you're saying. But as to the attorney, he isn't telling the family what to believe. He is regurgitating his client's beliefs and using rhetoric to promote those beliefs. As he was hired to do. He has not done one thing in violation of the code of ethics. The hospital legal team also used loads of rhetoric to promote its position, in a manner many felt was insensitive to grieving families. That's the law.

Finally, as to pseudo science, there are people whose religious beliefs are in opposition to scientific fact. No amount of education will likely change that. As a society, we have to balance religious freedom with harm to the society at large. That's an issue worthy of debate and everyone's differing opinions on that are valid. But that's not what I'm talking about. I see very little honest debate anymore. Instead, I see a huge amount of impatience, insensitivity, mercilessness, spite, rage and hate.

I think end of life issues are interesting to debate but I don't see much intellectual debate occurring surrounding this case.
Click to expand...

He is accusing the hospital of deliberately trying to kill this dead child.
Maybe it is not a violation of attorney ethics but it is a violation of mine, and I think that when he or his clients do that they invite people in their private business to some degree. Just because their child died doesn't mean that there aren't innocent people in this hospital who are suffering for the false accusations. The hospital could support their rhetoric by doctor declarations that supported the obvious fact that Jahi McMath is dead. Dolan has so far brought no evidence to support his (or his client's) accusations.

I dunno, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what the Bar code says about these things but even if his clients beliefs really are that the hospital was trying to kill their daughter for money when they wanted her off the ventilator and were trying to starve her to death, he should imo have gently persuaded them that it was not in their best interests to say every false accusation that they believe aloud. They're grieving, they're in crisis, they needed advice and not someone egging them on in their paranoia. JMO.


Religious freedom does not imo mean that it is acceptable and ethical for a medical professional to spout medical falsehoods as a medical opinion. The same opinion would fine when it's clearly just a religious opinion but not when religion is cloaked in a scientific disguise and supported by scientific looking quotes that really aren't very scientific at all but very selective and misleading or in some cases even lies.

But I wasn't talking about just the preaching posing as science. Some of the unethical (imo) ones don't seem to have any apparent religious motivation, they're probably just all about the dollars and the fame.

I have seen some intelligent end of life discussion but it easily gets buried under a lot of the same old the same old.
 
PoirotryInMotion said:
Yes...I noticed that--wondered if I'd remembered incorrectly. (Thought it was on the docs that the bleed started in PICU?) Glad you noticed it, too!

Other than that, I thought the observations were pretty spot on, though.
Click to expand...

You know I am starting to think there is alot we do not know. something stinks here. I still have not seen a time for recovery, before the transfer to PICU. I have seen that it was up to 45 minutes in PICU before the bleeding started. I know in the past you are in recovery till you are awake and in stable condition before being moved.
 
gitana1 said:
No. They didn't. They took measures to put pressure on the hospital and to garner support so that the plug would not be pulled. They did what they felt was necessary to prevent that and guess what? It worked.

Did publicity invite a national conversation about death, religion, malpractice, belief, end of life decisions, cost of care, legalities surrounding the definition of death, etc.? Absolutely. But it did not give free license to rip these people to shreds or bash them publicly.

That's kind of like saying celebrities invited the stalking by the paparazzi because they are celebrities. I disagree.
Click to expand...

Gitana, you have one of the kindest hearts. I have the utmost respect for you and what you do. I too thought this family needed our compassion. That was until the manipulation started. I have been both a provider and a recipient of excellent health care. I think it boiled down to acceptance for NW. A lot of times, we as parents don't wish to accept the facts that trained medical professionals have determined. These doctors are not in their chosen fields because the hours are short, decisions are easy, heartbreak is rare. Most have not purchased their medical degrees online. At minimum, they spent 11 years getting to the point where they could practice.

There comes a point in time when reality needs to be accepted. As painful as that may be, there are millions of parents in the same dilemma. As a nurse, I always advocated for my patient and in this case I advocate for Jahi. JMO
 
threecrazykids said:
I also pray every day for this family...it's got to be a gut wrenching situation to be in.

HOWEVER, each person on this earth deserves to die with dignity and this family APPEARS to be giving that poor little girl none. IMO, this family is failing to accept the fact that their daughter has DIED.

At what point does SOMEONE take control and draw the line and not allow the delusions to continue? That person clearly won't be someone in her family as they have zero intent of allowing her to die a dignified, natural death...they honestly believe she's alive simply because of the mere fact that machines are partially functioning her body.

If a parent/family chooses to abuse their child, the state and it's laws HAVE to step in...alive or dead. And mechanically keeping her "alive" until they come to grips is only desecrating what she SHOULD be remembered for. What she WILL be remembered for is NOT the life she lived, but rather the undignified death she received due to her parents delusions.
Click to expand...

If Jahi is dead, how is she being abused? If Jahi is dead, how are they not allowing her to die a dignified death? She's already dead. The dying process is over. Here's what I stated previously about dignity for Jahi:

Jahi's soul is in heaven. She experiences none of this. We show dignity to bodies out of respect for the family. We know what her family wants.

And it's not as if Jahi's corpse is being drop kicked all over the place. Or otherwise desecrated. What's happening to her body is the physical manifestation of her family's pain and horror. But for them, it is enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. Jahi has all the dignity a child could ever have, in the enduring, passionate love of her traumatized family.
 
otto said:
We do know that more than one family member was in the ICU and that they were using the suction tube. We don't know if they were instructed on the use of the suction tube and asked to use it, or if they simply used it because they thought it was a good idea. We do know that while they were using the suction tube, they called for a doctor because the bleeding increased. Other than that, we only have half the story, and it's not a clear story.
Click to expand...

Again, we do not know what staff did or did not do. Yes we have half of the story.
 
 
Elley Mae said:
You know I am starting to think there is alot we do not know. something stinks here. I still have not seen a time for recovery, before the transfer to PICU. I have seen that it was up to 45 minutes in PICU before the bleeding started. I know in the past you are in recovery till you are awake and in stable condition before being moved.
Click to expand...

Actually, many patients who are scheduled for ICU admit after surgery bypass the PACU (Recovery Room) and go directly from the OR to the ICU.
 
otto said:
When this has to be said on national TV, you know something went wrong somewhere.

"DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, her prognosis is she has been declared brain dead and, you know, that's an irreversible condition."
Click to expand...

But it doesn't seem to matter to the family. :(
Sadly they just do NOT understand that brain dead is irreversible. :....(
 
I understand that others believe/feel that the family should do what they need to do because it doesn't involved CHO anymore, etc.

What about Jahi's siblings though? You think they are gonna come out of this okay? You think it's fair for them to be brought through this because the mother, uncle and attorney thinks this is the right choice?

Serious question, and I doubt anyone here would have that answer.
 
Elley Mae said:
You know I am starting to think there is alot we do not know. something stinks here. I still have not seen a time for recovery, before the transfer to PICU. I have seen that it was up to 45 minutes in PICU before the bleeding started. I know in the past you are in recovery till you are awake and in stable condition before being moved.
Click to expand...

Don't quote me on this, as it's just an opinion based on following this case and reading some of the articles. My understanding is that after the surgery she was in recovery and then the family was asked to wait for 30-45 minutes while she was transferred to ICU. Everything seemed stable, but she was in intensive care, which means it's touch and go - things can go either way when a child is in ICU. In ICU, someone came up with the idea that the child should have a popsicle. More than one family member was in ICU with the patient and there was some bleeding from her nose. One of the family members was using the suction tube but the bleeding became worse. The grandmother came into ICU and used the suction tube. The bleeding increased until there was a crisis and a doctor was called. I would assume that the family then had to leave the ICU. This is probably when 4 liters of blood were given, but at some point, the patient had a heart attack. She must have been without oxygen for too long. There was most likely brain swelling and then on Dec 11, tests were done that confirmed that there was no brain activity. On Dec 12, she was pronounced dead. That just my understanding from reading all sorts of things.
 
Zuri said:
Gitana, you have one of the kindest hearts. I have the utmost respect for you and what you do. I too thought this family needed our compassion. That was until the manipulation started. I have been both a provider and a recipient of excellent health care. I think it boiled down to acceptance for NW. A lot of times, we as parents don't wish to accept the facts that trained medical professionals have determined. These doctors are not in their chosen fields because the hours are short, decisions are easy, heartbreak is rare. Most have not purchased their medical degrees online. At minimum, they spent 11 years getting to the point where they could practice.

There comes a point in time when reality needs to be accepted. As painful as that may be, there are millions of parents in the same dilemma. As a nurse, I always advocated for my patient and in this case I advocate for Jahi. JMO
Click to expand...

Thank you, Zuri. Jahi is dead. She's in heaven. There is no need to advocate for her anymore. I'm sorry you feel the family is no longer worthy of empathy. I don't have that opinion.

I'm just super sensitive to people in the throes of grief. There's nothing worse.
My feelings on this issue and whether or not this family should be "forced" to accept would be different if Jahi was suffering. She is not. Her family is.

They brought their baby in for a routine operation. She was scared. Thy assured her. They were wrong and she suddenly died. That is an incredible trauma to bear. Yet now they are expected to accept what the medical establishment is telling them. And people are actually criticizing their shock by saying, "Well, complications are expected in every operation." as if they had no right to be shocked. Come on.

I believe this was not handled by the hospital as best as it could've been. I greatly admire health care professionals for the most part. But not all are heroes.
 
CHERIE.T said:
Can someone answer this:
Why exactly did Jahi lose so much blood?
This is not a snarky question but a true I want to know kinda thing.
Click to expand...

We can only speculate about the reason. From what I've pieced together from the family's statements the Grandma was with Jahi in recovery and she was fine. She was later moved to PICU and had to be stabilised before family could see her. This took about half an hour. When they got there they saw that she was bleeding. This is where things get fuzzy because of conflicting stories. Shortly after this Jahi was talking and laughing and asked for a Popsicle. At some stage after this the bleeding got heavier. This continued for several hours. At one stage the bleeding became very heavy and the family has said that Jahi herself, the mother, the grandmother and step father all suctioned her. Soon after this she went into cardiac arrest. At some stage the mother blacked out and had to be admitted as a patient. Their timeline isn't clear about a few of these things.

We can only speculate based on what we've been told. Medically, heavy bleeding after this complex and major surgery is likely. I personally believe that the bleeding Jahi was experiencing when the family first saw her in ICU was 'normal' post op bleeding. IMO and pure speculation is that the family tragically and accidentally dislodged the clots from the tonsillar beds when they were suctioning her which led to heavier bleeding later. I don't believe that the nurses in ICU should have let the family suction her at all. I'm not blaming either the family or nurses, just clarifying that I think it was a horrible accident. All of this is moo.

We don't know many facts in this case at all so we can't know why she bled so severely IMO.

On my phone, please excuse typos and autocorrects.

Link to quote from grandma talking about her being fine in recovery then being moved to ICU:
http://wqad.com/2013/12/17/girl-predicts-devastating-outcome-of-her-own-tonsillectomy/

More timeline details here, including that Jahi bled profusely for several hours, according to her mum:
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4485119
 
If you could have any information about what really happened, what would be most important to you?

For me: I would want to know at what point in time was the surgeon notified of the patient's excessive bleeding, what amount of blood was collected as a result of the bleeding and what was the surgeon's response?
 
gitana1 said:
Thank you, Zuri. Jahi is dead. She's in heaven. There is no need to advocate for her anymore. I'm sorry you feel the family is no longer worthy of empathy. I don't have that opinion.

I'm just super sensitive to people in the throes of grief. There's nothing worse.
My feelings on this issue and whether or not this family should be "forced" to accept would be different if Jahi was suffering. She is not. Her family is.

They brought their baby in for a routine operation. She was scared. Thy assured her. They were wrong and she suddenly died. That is an incredible trauma to bear. Yet now they are expected to accept what the medical establishment is telling them. And people are actually criticizing their shock by saying, "Well, complications are expected in every operation." as if they had no right to be shocked. Come on.

I believe this was not handled by the hospital as best as it could've been. I greatly admire health care professionals for the most part. But not all are heroes.
Click to expand...

It is understandable that the family are shocked and distressed, we all would be. And it's possible that there was negligence or malpractice involved in Jahi's death. It's possible that not all the hospital workers in CHO are heroes. But it doesn't mean that they're all murderers who were out to get this girl. (Dolan named 100 Does in his suit so he apparently he accuses them of a vast conspiracy)
 
otto said:
Don't quote me on this, as it's just an opinion based on following this case and reading some of the articles. My understanding is that after the surgery she was in recovery and then the family was asked to wait for 30-45 minutes while she was transferred to ICU. Everything seemed stable, but she was in intensive care, which means it's touch and go - things can go either way when a child is in ICU. In ICU, someone came up with the idea that the child should have a popsicle. More than one family member was in ICU with the patient and there was some bleeding from her nose. One of the family members was using the suction tube but the bleeding became worse. The grandmother came into ICU and used the suction tube. The bleeding increased until there was a crisis and a doctor was called. I would assume that the family then had to leave the ICU. This is probably when 4 liters of blood were given, but at some point, the patient had a heart attack. She must have been without oxygen for too long. There was most likely brain swelling and then on Dec 11, tests were done that confirmed that there was no brain activity. On Dec 12, she was pronounced dead. That just my understanding from reading all sorts of things.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the other things I remember are that the gmom passed out And the mother was not in the room but heard an alarm ? for her room # iirc and upon entering the room gmom is on the floor.
 
meanmaryjean said:
Actually, many patients who are scheduled for ICU admit after surgery bypass the PACU (Recovery Room) and go directly from the OR to the ICU.
Click to expand...

You're right. In the court documents it's stated Jahi was in recovery where she was given a Popsicle.
 
gitana1 said:
If Jahi is dead, how is she being abused? If Jahi is dead, how are they not allowing her to die a dignified death? She's already dead. The dying process is over. Here's what I stated previously about dignity for Jahi:

Jahi's soul is in heaven. She experiences none of this. We show dignity to bodies out of respect for the family. We know what her family wants.

And it's not as if Jahi's corpse is being drop kicked all over the place. Or otherwise desecrated. What's happening to her body is the physical manifestation of her family's pain and horror. But for them, it is enabling them to cope and go through the grief process. Jahi has all the dignity a child could ever have, in the enduring, passionate love of her traumatized family.
Click to expand...

This child died a month ago and her body is in the process of slow decay. Have you read the affidavit of Dr. Heidi R. Flori?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is DeKalb County John Doe (2022)?

Members online

... and 91 more.
Total: 3,474 (members: 92, guests: 3,382)

Online statistics

Members online
92
Guests online
3,382
Total visitors
3,474
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
603,684
Messages
18,160,770
Members
231,820
Latest member
Hernak
Back
Top