Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

[threecrazykids]

I'm pretty shocked where we are as a nation. People "lashing out" at a grieving family for refusing to accept their little girl's death? The lack of compassion, the virulent rage against such sad people, rage so intense that some cannot restrain themselves from spending hours, even days of their own lives monitoring and branding and questioning and hating these sad people.

It astounds me.

Jahi's body has left the hospital. The hospital and it's staff are no longer part of the "drama". I hope everyone can leave this poor family alone to spend the last moments her heart has to beat, giving her their love and saying goodbye.

Instead of venting such simmering rage by insisting on surveilling this "awful" family, hungrily hoping reporters will camp out to follow them around, calling for their attorney to be disciplined by the state bar and their surviving children to be monitored by the government, perhaps this family can now be left in peace?

That is my prayer to God today.

I also pray every day for this family...it's got to be a gut wrenching situation to be in.

HOWEVER, each person on this earth deserves to die with dignity and this family APPEARS to be giving that poor little girl none. IMO, this family is failing to accept the fact that their daughter has DIED.

At what point does SOMEONE take control and draw the line and not allow the delusions to continue? That person clearly won't be someone in her family as they have zero intent of allowing her to die a dignified, natural death...they honestly believe she's alive simply because of the mere fact that machines are partially functioning her body.

If a parent/family chooses to abuse their child, the state and it's laws HAVE to step in...alive or dead. And mechanically keeping her "alive" until they come to grips is only desecrating what she SHOULD be remembered for. What she WILL be remembered for is NOT the life she lived, but rather the undignified death she received due to her parents delusions.

 

[gngr~snap]

Thanks. I suspect my dh has sleep apnea. That surgery would be out of the question. 6 month recovery! Wonder if that includes swelling of soft tissues that could make apnea worse. CPAP makes way more sense!

I have taken care of a few GROWN MEN that had similar operations, however they had to consent to having a temporary tracheostomy at the time of surgery in order to allow for proper packing/swelling etc, while allowing/maintaining a patent airway.
IMO a horrific, last chance, dire surgery done for these men who had been suffering.
I can not even imagine doing ALL of this on a child.
It's the stuff nightmares are made of!
Seriously, she bled to death.
Given a few more hours the swelling could have cut off her airway.
Moo

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

 

[gngr~snap]

Double post sorry!

 

[Isabelle]

The child was declared dead on Dec 12. If the child had a brain injury, but was still alive, there could have been a large financial settlement. I think another case was linked where a child suffered brain damage due to post-surgical complications. The award was something like $4.2 million, which would of course be for the lifetime care of that child. In this case, the child is deceased and the date that the child died will not be changed. We can't die twice. I think the maximum amount of award is $250,000, but the uncle called that "chump change" and has his eye on the $30 million option. It's possible that dragging this out is related to trying to establish grounds for getting access to the millions. I'm sure that the lawyer will attempt to change the day that the child died as that may open the door for a larger award, but it's pretty much impossible to argue with medical science regarding brain death. The family might want to use prolonged pain and suffering in relation to the death of the child as a basis for financial compensation, but it is the family that has prolonged this. Religion has been mentioned by the lawyer, but there is nothing in the Baptist religion that conflicts with accepting death and burying the dead.

Regarding the cause of death, I think we already know that she died as a result of the known, post-surgery complication of bleeding. After excessive blood loss, she suffered a heart attack. That resulted in a lack of oxygen to the brain, and ultimately brain death. The question is what happened when the family was using the suction tube, because that seems to be the moment that the excessive blood loss occurred and the situation became critical.

We do not know that it was only the family or patient that used the suction device.

 

[Elley Mae]

The nearly $50,000 in private donations the family has raised since taking the case public helped cover the carefully choreographed handoff to the critical care team and transportation to the new location, Sealey said. The facility, where Jahi is expected to remain for some time, is run by a charitable organization that so far hasn't sought payment, Dolan said.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/experts-clock-ticking-ca-brain-dead-teen/ncdzh/

 

[newmrsc]

In terms of understanding what is going on, it is difficult to overlook the statements from the family regarding cash awards, and the lawyer's posturing in terms of pretending that a deceased person is alive. Something is going on here beyond keeping a deceased body plugged into a machine while the internal organs fail. It's not related to religion, because there is no religion that has this belief. It's not because the family cannot understand that the child has died, as there is ample information available all over the media about the fact that no one comes back from the dead, and a miracle has never happened.

What could be the reason for what is happening with this child's body? Why is the uncle openly stating that this is about money?

ITA. There have been a lot of unfortunate comments made. I feel that the uncle was completely out of line in making remarks about the money. I understand that they believe it gives the hospital a "motive," perhaps, but I feel it's unfair to go public about that when the family was given all the assurance that could be given that she was truly deceased. The family asked for more time and for more than CHO physician assurance. I get that. If you think they have a motive to want her dead, maybe you want additional exams saying she's brain dead, by independent physicians having no financial stake. But once they got that, it needed to stop. Arguing financial points beyond that? It doesn't make sense to me. A lot of private agendas have come forward in this case, and ultimately my main concern is for the family who has been duped by people advancing various agendas and for the little girl who deserved dignity in death and celebration of the beautiful life she lived. JMO.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Good blog post about the collective societal losses of this sad case:

http://www.amc.edu/BioethicsBlog/post.cfm/another-family-tragedy-and-our-collective-losses

 

[Elley Mae]

Good blog post about the collective societal losses of this sad case:

http://www.amc.edu/BioethicsBlog/post.cfm/another-family-tragedy-and-our-collective-losses

It says a few days after surgery she began to bleed.

 

[newmrsc]

Good blog post about the collective societal losses of this sad case:

http://www.amc.edu/BioethicsBlog/post.cfm/another-family-tragedy-and-our-collective-losses

Thank you for this. I didn't realize about the hospital bills. I figured that the family was on the hook for it, but it's hard to imagine delivering that bill at this point.

 

[Karmady]

Thank you for this. I didn't realize about the hospital bills. I figured that the family was on the hook for it, but it's hard to imagine delivering that bill at this point.

At the presser yesterday, Dolan pretty much dared the hospital to send the family a bill. jmo

 

[Isabelle]

I have taken care of a few GROWN MEN that had similar operations, however they had to consent to having a temporary tracheostomy at the time of surgery in order to allow for proper packing/swelling etc, while allowing/maintaining a patent airway.
IMO a horrific, last chance, dire surgery done for these men who had been suffering.
I can not even imagine doing ALL of this on a child.
It's the stuff nightmares are made of!
Seriously, she bled to death.
Given a few more hours the swelling could have cut off her airway.
Moo

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

OMG! Thanks. Add to that the rarity with which this extensive surgery on done on pediatric children that I would guess the PICU nurses may have been lacking in experience. I am not faulting staff but do know that in my experience as an RN superiors had tried more than once to put me in a position that would compromise patient care because of my lack of knowledge. Ex: ordered to float to telemetry to care for cardiac patients. I let supervisor and charge nurse know that I was not experienced in this area. Their response was I didn't need the experience. They backed down only after I told them that I would let patients and families know of my inexperience. Nurses are placed in positions every day that endangers patients and most nurses would never speak up. So glad I am 99.9% retired and will never work in a hospital again.

 

[otto]

We do not know that it was only the family or patient that used the suction device.

We do know that more than one family member was in the ICU and that they were using the suction tube. We don't know if they were instructed on the use of the suction tube and asked to use it, or if they simply used it because they thought it was a good idea. We do know that while they were using the suction tube, they called for a doctor because the bleeding increased. Other than that, we only have half the story, and it's not a clear story.

 

[CHERIE.T]

I also pray every day for this family...it's got to be a gut wrenching situation to be in.

HOWEVER, each person on this earth deserves to die with dignity and this family APPEARS to be giving that poor little girl none. IMO, this family is failing to accept the fact that their daughter has DIED.

At what point does SOMEONE take control and draw the line and not allow the delusions to continue? That person clearly won't be someone in her family as they have zero intent of allowing her to die a dignified, natural death...they honestly believe she's alive simply because of the mere fact that machines are partially functioning her body.

If a parent/family chooses to abuse their child, the state and it's laws HAVE to step in...alive or dead. And mechanically keeping her "alive" until they come to grips is only desecrating what she SHOULD be remembered for. What she WILL be remembered for is NOT the life she lived, but rather the undignified death she received due to her parents delusions.

Reposting. Thank you threecrazykids.

 

[Isabelle]

It says a few days after surgery she began to bleed.

I think it was the same day. She was declared brain dead a few (3) days after surgery.

 

[gitana1]

No doubt the family and the attorney will stop giving daily press updates and it will help them acquire privacy during the last times that Jahi's heart will beat.

Grieving families cannot be expected to think straight as they are in an emotional crisis but I think there are many people on the fringes of this sad case, looking for publicity, who need to be called out every time they appear for spreading misinformation and outright lies. Journalists who don't bother to check any facts, medical professionals who promote pseudoscience and give false hope to grieving families, lawyers who know very well that their client is dead but tell her family and the world that she can wake up so they can bash a hospital and accuse them of trying to murder a girl who already died weeks ago.

I agree with some of what you're saying. But as to the attorney, he isn't telling the family what to believe. He is regurgitating his client's beliefs and using rhetoric to promote those beliefs. As he was hired to do. He has not done one thing in violation of the code of ethics. The hospital legal team also used loads of rhetoric to promote its position, in a manner many felt was insensitive to grieving families. That's the law.

Finally, as to pseudo science, there are people whose religious beliefs are in opposition to scientific fact. No amount of education will likely change that. As a society, we have to balance religious freedom with harm to the society at large. That's an issue worthy of debate and everyone's differing opinions on that are valid. But that's not what I'm talking about. I see very little honest debate anymore. Instead, I see a huge amount of impatience, insensitivity, mercilessness, spite, rage and hate.

I think end of life issues are interesting to debate but I don't see much intellectual debate occurring surrounding this case.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Can someone answer this:
Why exactly did Jahi lose so much blood?
This is not a snarky question but a true I want to know kinda thing.

 

[otto]

Can someone answer this:
Why exactly did Jahi lose so much blood?
This is not a snarky question but a true I want to know kinda thing.

That's a good question. It is one of the known complications resulting from the surgery. There was speculation early on that the suction tube might have been used incorrectly and that the sutures were ruptured.

Dr. Manion: medical examiner

"MANION: We all have different blood vessel anatomy, and we all have different coagulation abilities. I`m sure she was tested for hemophilia or any coagulation problems. In fact, there are reported cases where a person starts bleeding a week after their tonsillectomy and dies, because the clot is being resorbed, and sometimes that resuption can break into new vessels and cause abrupt bleeding."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/ng.01.html

 

[seattlechiquita]

Can someone answer this:
Why exactly did Jahi lose so much blood?
This is not a snarky question but a true I want to know kinda thing.

We do not know yet. The hospital has not released records --and mentioned the family did not allow them to discuss that. Wish I had more details as well.

 

[gitana1]

In terms of understanding what is going on, it is difficult to overlook the statements from the family regarding cash awards, and the lawyer's posturing in terms of pretending that a deceased person is alive. Something is going on here beyond keeping a deceased body plugged into a machine while the internal organs fail. It's not related to religion, because there is no religion that has this belief. It's not because the family cannot understand that the child has died, as there is ample information available all over the media about the fact that no one comes back from the dead, and a miracle has never happened.

What could be the reason for what is happening with this child's body? Why is the uncle openly stating that this is about money?

Motl Brody, 12, of Brooklyn, fell into a coma in June after an operation on a brain tumor at the Children's National Medical Center in Washington. He was pronounced dead last week after doctors at the hospital concluded the seventh-grader's brain ceased functioning.

His Orthodox Jewish parents, however, say the boy still has a heartbeat and is considered alive according to their religion.

Under some interpretations of Jewish religious law, including the one accepted by the family's Hasidic sect, death occurs only when the heart and lungs stop functioning.

That means Motl "is alive, and his family has a religious obligation to secure all necessary and appropriate medical treatment to keep him alive," the family's attorney wrote in a court filing last week. http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/1...pull-plug-on-brain-dead-boy-arguments-resume/

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Honestly though, where do we draw the line? Could a skeleton regrow all its organs and tissue and come back to life via a real God given miracle? Who's to say what is possible if we're entertaining the idea of the supernatural and miraculous.

Well, actually, Christian belief does encompass this. But that God-given miracle is believed to be in the future--a bodily resurrection for all believers, with the Rapture. Before this Jahi newstory, I'd not heard of any Christians praying for resurrection on an individual basis in present day.

It says a few days after surgery she began to bleed.

Yes...I noticed that--wondered if I'd remembered incorrectly. (Thought it was on the docs that the bleed started in PICU?) Glad you noticed it, too!

Other than that, I thought the observations were pretty spot on, though.