Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

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otto said:
What kind of food does one insert into a deceased person and where does it go? This is too strange. I can't comprehend it.
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Where does it go if there is no digestion? Does it just lay in the gut? I assume there are no disgestive enzymes to break it down. OMB this is a nighmare. jmo
 
Nutritional Status and Enteral Absorption Capability After Brain Death (HRSA Nutrition)


This study is ongoing, but not recruiting participants.

Sponsor:

The University of Texas Health Science Center, Houston
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http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00858390

Darn! Not recruiting participants. :(

Purpose

The investigators propose to assess 36 donors' nutritional status using accepted parameters (prealbumin, resting energy expenditure); to assess nutrient intestinal absorption through 13Curacil breath tests; and to evaluate serum concentrations of IL-6 and TNFalpha to determine if continuing or initiating enteral feeding and nutritional supplementation is effective in restoring or maintaining nutritional parameters.

Condition: Brain Death

Intervention:
Dietary Supplement: enteral feeding with Oxepa® and Glutasolve®
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Just curious ... If the parents decided to do so ...

Would organs/parts still be viable for donation? TIA
 
BeginnersLuck said:
I'm sure the family will have questions as they see all these changes going on with her body. Will all these medical professionals have a unconventional answer to give them or will they be honest about what is really happening with her? I have my doubts they will be honest if there is truth about the feeding tube.

I'm wondering if any of these care providers have ever really seen a deceased person kept on a vent for a lengthy time period. If they are used to treating TBI patients and they see these changes in Jahi they haven't witnessed with other patients, will it be like a oh &*%& moment?

At this point, all I see this being, is a potential educational opportunity for those that don't understand brain death, but only if there is someone there to be honest about what is happening to her body.

Are there those that actually have any sort of medical credentials that could be so closed minded to reality?

I just can't get past the thought of this being on the lines of experimentation and desecration of Jahi's body.

Excuse me while I pick my mouth up off the floor and I'm sorry for thinking out loud here.
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BBM: yes, I expressed the fear a while back that Jahi's body would be subjected to human--you can't really call it vivisection, because her body is only maintaining certain functions as she is attached to a ventilator, but for lack of another word--vivisection. What else do you call performing medical procedures on an individual who is dead according to the laws to her state of residence, the consensus of professional societies, generally accepted medical ethics, etc.? It is experimentation, that is what it is.

And some may call it compassionate, but I call it twisted, perverse, and frightening. Are we now going to be OK with artificially animating corpses and performing medical experimentation on them as long as their families members consent out of some faith-based belief need to deny the end of life? Are we really going down that road?

It appears so. And it frightens me.
 
Quester said:
Just curious ... If the parents decided to do so ...

Would organs/parts still be viable for donation? TIA
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Not a chance. Who would agree to have anything from someone that was dead for a month transplanted into a loved one. Bacteria is growing inside the body and the organs would not be suitable.
 
Minette said:
BBM: yes, I expressed the fear a while back that Jahi's body would be subjected to human--you can't really call it vivisection, because her body is only maintaining certain functions as she is attached to a ventilator, but for lack of another word--vivisection. What else do you call performing medical procedures on an individual who is dead according to the laws to her state of residence, the consensus of professional societies, generally accepted medical ethics, etc.? It is experimentation, that is what it is.

And some may call it compassionate, but I call it twisted, perverse, and frightening. Are we now going to be OK with artificially animating corpses and performing medical experimentation on them as long as their families members consent out of some faith-based belief need to deny the end of life? Are we really going down that road?

It appears so. And it frightens me.
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People have been donating their bodies to science willingly (and not) for a very long time.
Organ transplant comes to mind.. the thought horrified many when it began.



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mck16 said:
Where does it go if there is no digestion? Does it just lay in the gut? I assume there are no disgestive enzymes to break it down. OMB this is a nighmare. jmo
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If there is no propulsion the feedings could back up into the esophagus and flow out of the mouth and nose and there is a good chance the liquid could enter the airway and lungs. Whether the sphincters at the esophagus to stomach border or the stomach-duodenum border are lax or contracted could make a difference as to whether feeds will pass through. Without any intestinal propulsion it seems the feeds would sit and stagnate/spoil and be further acted on by bacteria and not in a good way. I would think infection of the GI tract would be a high risk to cause rupture/perforation and would cause severe infection.

I did read an article about tube feedings in a person without peristalsis (propulsion) and there is a school of thought that very slow controlled feeds may activate hormones that effect propulsion. Whether this applies in a person who is braindead, not sure. The release/inhibition of many hormones are controlled by a feedback mechanism that requires brain function.

I do not understand how it is possible to deliver tube feedings to Jahi.
 
Linda7NJ said:
People have been donating their bodies to science willingly (and not) for a very long time.
Organ transplant comes to mind.. the thought horrified many when it began.



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Dear Linda, you are very compassionate and I appreciate that. However, you cannot have it both ways--either Jahi is a corpse or she is not. If she is a corpse and her mother has elected to donate her body to 'science,' then let's all be honest about that. If she is not a corpse, then the donating her body to science argument does not stand.

As for organ donation (I'm an organ donor category 'all needed' by the way) once I'm gone--for example brain dead--then if anything I have can save the life or sight of another then that's my gift to give. But folks (not singling you out) keep bringing the organ donation argument up when there is not one single shred of evidence that Jahi's parents ever seriously intended to go that route, and indeed her organs have been deteriorating for the past month and that's no longer even an option, I am willing to bet.

So if Jahi is a corpse, and we are all okay with artificially animating corpses to perform procedures on them to see what happens then let's all be clear on that terminology. But when people claim that Jahi's family is right to consider Jahi as still alive and able to recover with a 'miracle' and simultaneously use arguments that donating bodies to science and keeping bodies artificially animated to harvest organs are equivalent to what is going on with Jahi it gives me a bad case of the moral heebie-jeebies.

P.S. I think God answers *all* prayers, but sometimes the answer is "No." And as a person of faith you have to accept that.
 
Isabelle said:
If there is no propulsion the feedings could back up into the esophagus and flow out of the mouth and nose and there is a good chance the liquid could enter the airway and lungs. Whether the sphincters at the esophagus to stomach border or the stomach-duodenum border are lax or contracted could make a difference as to whether feeds will pass through. Without any intestinal propulsion it seems the feeds would sit and stagnate/spoil and be further acted on by bacteria and not in a good way. I would think infection of the GI tract would be a high risk to cause rupture/perforation and would cause severe infection.

I did read an article about tube feedings in a person without peristalsis (propulsion) and there is a school of thought that very slow controlled feeds may activate hormones that effect propulsion. Whether this applies in a person who is braindead, not sure. The release/inhibition of many hormones are controlled by a feedback mechanism that requires brain function.

I do not understand how it is possible to deliver tube feedings to Jahi.
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bbm, Wouldn't it fester in her stomach and cause gases and such. I am being honest. I can't imagine putting it in a stomach that is not functioning. I mean, really. jmo idk
 
On the Keep Jahi on life support FB page someone stated that her death certificate isn't complete. So either the family simply hasn't received the report or they are giving more false information in an attempt to gain support.
I thought that it was stated a death certificate had been issued and with that, she was released to the coroner - date of death Dec 12.

This was the first time I'd been on the page and was reading through what people are saying.

I seriously can't even believe some of the stuff I'm reading. It's truly disturbing.
 
Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
#NEW INFO: according to family, #JahiMcMath has had feeding tube inserted and is "doing great." pic.twitter.com/TqWC1qt3FQ

msm
 
Minette said:
Dear Linda, you are very compassionate and I appreciate that. However, you cannot have it both ways--either Jahi is a corpse or she is not. If she is a corpse and her mother has elected to donate her body to 'science,' then let's all be honest about that. If she is not a corpse, then the donating her body to science argument does not stand.



As for organ donation (I'm an organ donor category 'all needed' by the way) once I'm gone--for example brain dead--then if anything I have can save the life or sight of another then that's my gift to give. But folks (not singling you out) keep bringing the organ donation argument up when there is not one single shred of evidence that Jahi's parents ever seriously intended to go that route, and indeed her organs have been deteriorating for the past month and that's no longer even an option, I am willing to bet.



So if Jahi is a corpse, and we are all okay with artificially animating corpses to perform procedures on them to see what happens then let's all be clear on that terminology. But when people claim that Jahi's family is right to consider Jahi as still alive and able to recover with a 'miracle' and simultaneously use arguments that donating bodies to science and keeping bodies artificially animated to harvest organs are equivalent to what is going on with Jahi it gives me a bad case of the moral heebie-jeebies.



P.S. I think God answers *all* prayers, but sometimes the answer is "No." And as a person of faith you have to accept that.
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Her mother doesn't believe she is a corpse yet.

If she were my child, I would have let her go long ago.

I'm a card carrying organ donor too and I have a living will.

I'm not about pushing my beliefs onto someone else or telling others when life begins or ends. IMO that's a personal decision. Or in the case of a minor child, her legal guardian. In this case... That would be her mother.

I feel the same way about religious beliefs.

IMO it appears to this mother that ALL of her prayers have been answered thus far. I'm not surprised to hear she's still holding out hope for the big miracle.




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Why does no one worry about MY gag reflex? Because I can assure you after reading some of the links in this thread it is in *perfect* working order!

I don't know how you medical folks do it. Blood? Blood is fine, no problem (as long as it isn't my own personal blood, in which case Katie bar the door!) But when we start talking about things 'sloughing' and mucous being suctioned it makes me want to run around in circles flapping my hands and making high-pitched noises.
 
Updated posted by Latasha Nailah Winkfield 0 mins ago

Thank you to everyone that has...Thank you to everyone that has donated to Jahi. It is because of all of you I was able to afford to move Jahi to a place that would give her proper health care. God Bless You All

sorry gofund

Because donations have been very slow today?
 
What I don't understand is WHY they are insisting on enteral (gut) feedings?

They have IV access-- and most likely central access. Why not pursue "nutrients" via the intravenous route?

Is it just that it is more emotionally satisfying to them to see a bag of tube feed, versus a bag of TPN? Like a baby bottle of infant formula?

I am just really puzzled at this ongoing fixation on enteral nutrition and tube feeding.

Did they not read Dr. Fiori's report? No bowel sounds for weeks. Sloughing intestine. It's not like all of a sudden peristalsis will return, and absorption will be effective. This is kind of like magical thinking, IMO. (Well, not "kind of"-- it is magical thinking. IMO.)

Or, I guess I could go back to trying to look at this as a personal/ family death ritual.

I guess we all know that the tube feeds will not go well. IMO, it's just adding more misery to what they already have to deal with, with the state of her body. But I guess on some level it must bring some comfort to NW. I'm trying to be okay with that, but I'm really not okay with it at all.

And again-- we would never have known about the g-tube placement and feeds, if they weren't so concerned with their "privacy" that they had to blast it out in tweets and instagram. About an hour after they said they wanted privacy.

I guess they define privacy "differently" than I do. Very differently.
 
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