Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #6

[Donjeta]

Just to make sure I understand--

Do (some) people in this this thread really believe there is a (scientific, not miraculous) chance Jahi could 'wake up', or is this mostly just theoretical debate?

Put me in the theoretical camp. I don't presume to know what divine interventions are planned for Jahi but I don't believe in a false diagnosis or a conspiracy saying that Jahi is brain dead because CHO wants to save money. I trust the Stanford doctor, he seems to know what he's doing.
There don't seem to be any of the usual circumstances that lead to a false diagnosis. As far as we know it appears that Jahi wasn't intoxicated, kept in a medically induced coma, hypothermic. She wasn't sloppily or hastily examined, there were several confirmatory tests and scans and there were almost two weeks between the first exam by Shanahan and Fisher's exam, and since then, it appears from Flori's declaration that Jahi's condition hadn't become any better, only worse. And even though the Top Secret Facility doctors may say she's improving I take it that she's still not breathing or swallowing since they thought she needed the trach and the feeding tube.

 

[Linda7NJ]

In this specific case, I would agree 100% . With the post above mine... I meant to quote it:/


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[ArianeEmory]

(Thanks for answers--I'm not good at debates that involve, let's say, the big abstract questions, and sometimes I can't follow properly when people are just doing what-ifs. I'm much better at cases/stories where things are more concrete. But the idea of her waking up at this point makes me extremely uneasy, as I think we're already in bad enough shape as a civilization with people feeling that science is something you can optionally decide doesn't apply to you.)

 

[Wolfie]

opefully, whatever has been done was done under the care of a compassionate medical doctor trained in inserting feeding tubes into the stomach of a deceased person.

Because it is illegal to desecrate a dead body, I'm not sure this type of person exists.

I am really worried about what will happen as they try to put food in the stomach, and what the siblings have to see with everything.

 

[Herat]

Once JM was released by the coroner's office into the care of the family/new facility, would any impartial medical professional continue to visit JM? To impartially document her condition? TIA

Unless it was specified in the court order, I do not believe there is any truly independent medical professional allowed to visit her (privacy, don'tcha know)

And if there was a court order, I would think that it would have been prudent to specify the qualifications of the professional who was to document or review her condition: ie: pediatric neurologist? pediatric critical care physician? rehabilitation specialist? etc.

I'm sure it isn't happening because that's the last thing that Dolan wants documented. Right now he and Dr. Byrne can say anything they want and there is no peer review to validate or refute it.

 

[kaki]

Put me in the theoretical camp. I don't presume to know what divine interventions are planned for Jahi but I don't believe in a false diagnosis or a conspiracy saying that Jahi is brain dead because CHO wants to save money. I trust the Stanford doctor, he seems to know what he's doing.
There don't seem to be any of the usual circumstances that lead to a false diagnosis. As far as we know it appears that Jahi wasn't intoxicated, kept in a medically induced coma, hypothermic. She wasn't sloppily or hastily examined, there were several confirmatory tests and scans and there were almost two weeks between the first exam by Shanahan and Fisher's exam, and since then, it appears from Flori's declaration that Jahi's condition hadn't become any better, only worse. And even though the Top Secret Facility doctors may say she's improving I take it that she's still not breathing or swallowing since they thought she needed the trach and the feeding tube.

I wonder what "improving" means? Notice there are no factual details...does that just mean they are able to continue to preserve her body longer? Does "improving" mean she is able to digest the nutrients they are giving her? Its all so secretive.

Im actually amazed that they were able to transport her and keep her breathing and heart beating...if that is actually the case.

 

[Quester]

Has JM's height and weight, just prior to operation, been disclosed? TIA

 

[ArianeEmory]

I wonder what "improving" means? Notice there are no factual details...does that just mean they are able to continue to preserve her body longer? Does "improving" mean she is able to digest the nutrients they are giving her? Its all so secretive.

Im actually amazed that they were able to transport her and keep her breathing and heart beating...if that is actually the case.

I asked about this yesterday but things were moving fast and not sure it was answered...

Some of the MSM reports mention a clinic in NY. Does that mean they flew her to NY from CA? (I realize we can't KNOW at this point, but is that the implication? Wouldn't that be a very hard thing to do on the down-low?)

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM... Linda, I wish. I really do wish it were possible that her mother is correct, and Jahi will "wake up" and be the girl that she was prior to this tragedy. Anyone with an ounce of compassion would feel the same, imo. But it's not going to happen



Ramifications-wise, my goodness, can you imagine the hospital over-crowding, the insurance/payment craziness, if this were allowed to happen for every single person whose family was allowed to do this with their legally dead loved ones? In this case, if she were to have a miracle "recovery", who do you go after? CHO, the impartial doctor from Stanford, the judges?

The ramifications are scary and why I have concerns about the ethics involved.

After doing so much reading...I've grown increasingly concerned with the entire organ donor process as well. I've said it before here and I'll say it again....when BIG money is involved, we should all be concerned.

Signing that organ donor card... More than a little scary to think what could happen the way things are NOW.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563803_2


http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204603004577269910906351598?mobile=y

I urge every organ donor or potential donor to read the above links.

In the hard sell and push to increase transplantations .....
"They" certainly failed to explain in detail, didn't they????

Like the basis for DEATH


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[I Object!]

Bullseye.

Brain dead girl's family is in denial
http://www.telegram.com/article/20140109/COLUMN01/301099941/0/news03

 

[Donjeta]

I wonder what "improving" means? Notice there are no factual details...does that just mean they are able to continue to preserve her body longer? Does "improving" mean she is able to digest the nutrients they are giving her? Its all so secretive.

Im actually amazed that they were able to transport her and keep her breathing and heart beating...if that is actually the case.

Just at a guess, I think they put her on lots of medications to control her BP and electrolytes, antibiotics, hormones etc. and have been able to stabilize her blood pressure somewhat, get better results in blood tests and perhaps do something to the texture of the secretions in her airways that Flori mentioned. She looks more normal without the ventilator mask on, so that's a factor. And I'm not so sure that if she was doing worse after the surgery they would have actually told us so.

 

[Donjeta]

I asked about this yesterday but things were moving fast and not sure it was answered...

Some of the MSM reports mention a clinic in NY. Does that mean they flew her to NY from CA? (I realize we can't KNOW at this point, but is that the implication? Wouldn't that be a very hard thing to do on the down-low?)

I doubt she's anywhere near that clinic in NY. They are nowhere near equipped to take care of a brain dead patient or perform surgery on her.

 

[Harmony 2]

BeginnersLuck, Just to be clear I see you as anything BUT insensitive- no one here and posting, actually. I appreciate the profound sensitivity here at WS, and that is why I come. We may have differing opinions but the compassion, kindness and understanding never wanes. I appreciate the intelligent exchange of opinions and ideas- always.

Perfectly worded!!! These are my sentiments exactly... :loveyou:

((((((Frigga)))))))

 

[Linda7NJ]

(Thanks for answers--I'm not good at debates that involve, let's say, the big abstract questions, and sometimes I can't follow properly when people are just doing what-ifs. I'm much better at cases/stories where things are more concrete. But the idea of her waking up at this point makes me extremely uneasy, as I think we're already in bad enough shape as a civilization with people feeling that science is something you can optionally decide doesn't apply to you.)

This is exactly why I love Websleuths!
I always look at the whole abstract questions in cases like this. I look ridiculously far ahead, around the corner, at the masses, at related topics....that sometimes I loose sight of what's right in front of me...

Folks at Websleuths bring Balance
Knowledge and a good healthy debate.


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[sherbetjello]

I am really worried about what will happen as they try to put food in the stomach, and what the siblings have to see with everything.

Hi, welcome to Websleuths!

I want to jump in on this post, because it's been a big, big question of mine as of yesterday.


Will Jahi's body decompose faster in the case they are doing this?
(So hard to type that.)

 

[Herat]

Hi, welcome to Websleuths!

I want to jump in on this post, because it's been a big, big question of mine as of yesterday.


Will Jahi's body decompose faster in the case they are doing this?
(So hard to type that.)

Not an expert on feeding brain-dead people, but my guess is that it will ultimately do more harm than good.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hi, welcome to Websleuths!



I want to jump in on this post, because it's been a big, big question of mine as of yesterday.





Will Jahi's body decompose faster in the case they are doing this?

(So hard to type that.)

IMO my opinion... If you tossed a brain dead patient into a large room full of unconscious ICU patients it would be incredible hard, if not impossible, for any lay person to single her out.


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[Wolfie]

From the msn article cited above by Harmony2 (#760)
This out to be very interesting in court when this comes out. They may have to deal with family members of other patients who do not want their loved one in a place where brain dead people's bodies are intensively care for, for free, while they have to pay bills that insurance will not cover.......

"The facility, where Jahi is expected to remain for some time, is run by a charitable organization that so far hasn't sought payment, Dolan said."

Also, the fact that they are keeping a dead body alive for free could affect the cost of the treatment of the alive people- and risk the accreditation of the facility.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Several comments have been made about the family's pastor and his continued participation in the delusion that Jahi can recover. One would think that a man of faith would be able to persuade Jahi's mother to let her child go to G-d. NW wants us to know how special Jahi is and what she means to her family. Perhaps this is why Jahi has gone to her eternal home - because she is very special, and G-d wants her with Him.

Some years ago (late 1980s) we had been away for a few days during the summer. When we got home, DD's friend told us that a neighbor boy had been hit by a car a few days ago and was in critical condition on life support. He had graduated from 8th grade and would have started high school that September. His older sister babysat DD, so we knew the family but not well enough to call and get details.

The following morning, I learned that A had been taken off life support and died shortly thereafter. I don't recall details about whether or not A was brain dead but did learn that his head injuries were severe and that there was little hope of recovery. The family had asked their parish priest to be with them when A was taken off life support. I talked with A's mother a few days after the funeral at which time she told me that Fr. B had helped them in the darkest days of their lives and that they had trusted him to help make the difficult decision to let their son go.

I hope and pray that Jahi's family will eventually have someone that they trust help them make the decision to let their beloved go so that they can begin to heal from this sad ordeal. lease:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Has JM's height and weight, just prior to operation, been disclosed? TIA

No. Jahi's parents haven't shared these details, and the hospital is under court order not to divulge anything about the case.