Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

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But what about Dr. Fiori's statement that her skin was changing and her digestive system was sloughing off and was being eliminated in a bowel movement? I believe that there was a nurse here (or maybe it was on another forum) who had treated a patient kept alive for a while and said that there were obvious changes, it just didn't happen as fast because of the vent. If it's not called decomposing, what is it called- deteriorating?

Since Isabelle is a verified RN, she's using very specific terminology to describe what is likely happening to Jahi's body. As a civilian in such matters, I would tend to use decomposing and deteriorating as though they were interchangeable. Even in some medical dictionaries, the terms are used in that way. I'm sure, however, that within the medical community, and possibly religious and other communities, the connotations are very nuanced and would put an even greater distance between what word would be acceptable to some people in certain circumstances rather than in others.
The dictionary meaning of decompose is to rot, or break up, or to analyse by taking apart. Therefore, the synonyms would be words like, crumble, disintegrate, dissolve, fester, putrify, turn, and so on. http://thesaurus.com/browse/decompose
Looking at medical dictionaries, the definition of decomposition according to Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers is "the separation of compound bodies into their constituent principles" (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/decomposition); according to The American Heritage® Medical Dictionary the meanings are "1. the act or result of decomposing, disintegration. 2. Separation into constituents by chemical reaction. 3. The breakdown or decay of organic materials; lysis". According to Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition, decomposition is "1. the separation of compound bodies into their component principles. 2. deterioration and decay of a substance."
On further checking I found a response from a Dr. Shashikant (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081209170612AAFfZGl) that seemed to give an explanation with regard to the connotations of the word. "Decomposition (or spoilage) refers to the process by which the tissue of a dead organism breaks down into simpler forms of matter." (my bold)
The meaning of deteriorate is to become less in value or quality or character, to disintegrate or wear away. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deteriorate. In the American Heritage Medical Dictionary, the definition reads "1. to grow worse in function or condition 2. to weaken or disintegrate." The synonyms include words like crumble, decline, fade, fail, corrupt, retrograde, retrogess, and so on. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deteriorate
Dr. Shashikant comments on another term which may be relevant in our discussion. According to him the word biodegradation is used to describe "the process by which organic substances are broken down by the enzymes produced by living organisms." my bold
I think Isabelle's point is that, in her opinion, Jahi's heart is still beating and, although her entire brain and brainstem have ceased to produce any electrical activity, thanks to the addition of drugs, nutrients, and oxygen through medical intervention, the rest of systems and organs housed by Jahi's body have not yet broken down. Therefore, she is, to some extent, alive. To describe the process by which the cells are breaking down as decomposition would be to describe a human being who may be incapable of breathing, feeling, thinking, remembering, or digesting on her own as being dead when, in the opinion of some people, she is still, as far as we know, in the process of dying. Albeit a protracted process thanks to medical intervention. Therefore, in describing what is happening to this little girl's body, it would be more accurate and much more respectful of Jahi's journey, to refer to that process through a term like biodegradation or deterioration. I suspect it is the way that deterioration also implies that the process is happening over a period of time, as Jahi's body can no longer regenerate the requisite cells to replace those being lost.
Am I sort of in the ballpark on this? I don't believe anyone means to be disrespectful Isabelle. I appreciate your pointing out that there is a difference which has particular meaning in this case.
 
But what about Dr. Fiori's statement that her skin was changing and her digestive system was sloughing off and was being eliminated in a bowel movement? I believe that there was a nurse here (or maybe it was on another forum) who had treated a patient kept alive for a while and said that there were obvious changes, it just didn't happen as fast because of the vent. If it's not called decomposing, what is it called- deteriorating?

Can't remember anything from Flori re skin changes. Her bowel sloughing may be due to severe hypoxia/anoxia at the time of her cardiac arrest. And some of the skin changes could be due dependent edema and breakdown bit has nothing to do with decomp.
 
Im confused as to where this is coming from that her body will be / is decomposing while she's on the ventilator. Her cells are being oxygenated because she is being given oxygen and her heart is still pumping. Skin break down , muscle break down , yes, but not decomposition. Decomposition is dying tissue, starts when no blood / oxygen supply to the tissues. I am not verified, but a retired RN.
 
I believe (hope) that the mother is grief-stricken. As I've said a couple of times before, though, grief and greed can sometimes (lots of times) co-exist. Especially when fueled by a fire based on deeply entrenched feelings of victimization. I am cynical, it's true. But only because I've seen it up close and personal so so many times. I think/hope if people start to see the undercurrents of these types of cases that garner enormous amounts of media attention, they'll start to look hard at the various underlying agendas before throwing their hat in for one side or the other. jmo

:seeya: Karmady. Please know that I didn't mean to insinuate that the mom isn't grief-stricken. I'm certain she is. Thanks for replying.
 
If the MD tells you to remain NPO why must he explain why? Why can't you (general) take him at his word and do so? When I have had surgeries including an emergency surgery The explanation was in the paper work I signed.....that I read. Why would anyone question that the MD or RN knew what they are talking about? JMO

In the medical field, professionals are expected to evaluate knowledge deficits and provide teaching. This especially applies to RNs. In Louisiana it is a requirement for RNs. We never assume someone understands no matter how simple the information may seem. A professor in my nursing school taught us that to assume will make an a$$ out of you and me. That stuck. I assess for knowledge, teach and evaluate for understanding and re-teach if needed and re-evaluate. If I don't do that and something happens I am liable. The teaching is also documented as well as understanding by the client.
 
The body is breaking down because it's dead. Cellular death. Not hormones unbalanced. Truly dead. Bacteria proliferates as part of the decomp process.

Jahi's body is not dead. Her brain and brain stem are dead. As long as there is circulation and the exchange of gasses (oxygen and carbon dioxide) the cells will live. There is metabolic activity in Jahi's cells and organs except for brain and brain stem.
 
Brain dead, goiters and vents ~33 days on and counting/deteriorating! Oh my!

Please, please unplug the machines and let this child go!!!
 
After Jahi's heart finally stops for the last time who do you think will be the attorney who will bring the lawsuit against Children's if there is one?

Before this case I had never heard of Dolan and I assumed he was probably some unknown trying to make a name for himself. So I was curious and looked his bio up today and was very shocked.

Not only is he a high profile attorney but he is ranked in the top 100 lawyers in the country.

I was also shocked to learn he has won some of the biggest cases in the nation. Here is just one of them that resulted in 60 BILLION! I wonder if that broke any records as to highest payout ever?

FedEx Civil Rights Groundbreaking Verdict

Christopher B. Dolan, received a $60,000,000 verdict against FedEx

The $50 million punitive damage award came in the second phase of the trial and was based on a finding that FedEx Ground and Shoun acted with oppression and malice in the treatment of the plaintiffs. The Jury held the individual manager liable for $1 million in emotional distress damages and $56.00 in punitive damages after the plaintiffs' counsel asked the jury to teach him a lesson through compassion in the punitive damage phase and hold the company liable for the damage. The total verdict was $61,000,056. (Alameda County Superior Court Case No . 841208-9.)


I don't know why I was thinking he was 'small potatoes' and I pictured him as having a dusty cluttered little office with dirty ashtrays everywhere. :D

So if there is a malpractice case in the future do you think he will do it or will it be someone like Attorney John Buris? I am not sure he does malpractice cases like Dolan though.

How in the world did Jahi's family obtain such a high profile lawyer and didn't Dolan say he did it pro bono?

Just wondering about what our posters may think as to who the attorney will be in case a lawsuit is filed.

TIA

So 60 million was the original verdict, but it was appealed. They grossed 12 Million in the end. http://www.law360.com/articles/10119/fedex-damages-cut-in-discrimination-suit
 
I'm wondering about the inevitable lawsuit and what claims will be made. For instance, the long term care cost vs the smaller death payout... But so far the "long term costs" have not seemed to appear. Dolan supposedly donated his services, people donated to the "gofund" to cover the transportation costs, this "facility" she is supposedly in was reported to care for her free of charge, not sure about the costs of her new "doctor".

Also, when Jahi's mother took custody of her from the coroner she assumed full responsibility for her so did that include also assuming all financial responsibility too?

So I am wondering if these "free" people and facilities will eventually place a value on their services so that it can be incorporated into the inevitable lawsuit as "costs" that the family incurred.
 
Can you explain in simple terms for those of us that are not fully medically knowledgeable? TIA!

Glad to do so. In cardiac arrest the heart stops, circulation stops. All organs and cells are deprived of oxygen. Complete absence of oxygen is anoxia. Just before onset of cardiac arrest movement of oxygen into the body and carbon dioxide out of the body may be decreased causing hypoxia (low oxygen level) and hypercapnea (increased carbon dioxide level). At cardiac arrest (heart stopped) there is a complete stoppage of oxygen entering the body (anoxia).

As the oxygen levels drop stress hormone is released causing the heart rate and blood pressure to increase. The vessels of the body are acted on by stress hormone causing them to shut down (vasoconstrict) to assure blood gets to the most vital organs, first to be saved is brain and heart. Blood flow to the gastrointestinal system is severely limited and can result in ischemia (lack of blood flow) leading to severe damage and death to that system. This could be the cause of bowel sloughing. There may be other causes, such as the formation of clots in the micro circulation (capillary system) that would also cause oxygen deprivation.
 
I was reading that from a stand point of them claiming that no one came to help, and they felt they had to do it, not that they were given permission from a nurse to do so.

:moo:

That is how I read it too. Someone had described how strong the suction devices are and it sounded like something that if used incorrectly could have easily tore open a wound.

Can one of or medical experts give a detailed explanation of how these suction devices work and how similiar or different they are from thse used at a dentists office?

TIA
 
Is JM's family aware that New Beginnings is asking for donations to support the family, but the donation link goes to NB's general donation page/account? The request for donations to help Jahi's family was just two hours ago on facebook.

---------------
I do not know the laws. I do believe when Mom took complete responsibility she also took respons ibility for future bills. I cant see any insurance Co. paying tabs on someone with a death certificate! The hospital may have the right to charge for the ventilator also. What I am trying to say is by the time this is all over, they may be sorry they did it this way. I hope they have some proof of what the hospital told them, I kinda think the hospital has proof of what they say. They (hospital) cannot speak now but in time it will be out. I know who I'd believe.:seeya:
 
Maybe it was used in one of the other senses of the word crazy?

crazy  
Use Crazy in a sentence
cra·zy [krey-zee] Show IPA
adjective, cra·zi·er, cra·zi·est.
1.
mentally deranged; demented; insane.
2.
senseless; impractical; totally unsound: a crazy scheme.
3.
Informal. intensely enthusiastic; passionately excited: crazy about baseball.
4.
Informal. very enamored or infatuated (usually followed by about ): He was crazy about her.
5.
Informal. intensely anxious or eager; impatient: I'm crazy to try those new skis.
6.
Informal. unusual; bizarre; singular: She always wears a crazy hat.
7.
Slang. wonderful; excellent; perfect: That's crazy, man, crazy.
8.
likely to break or fall to pieces.
9.
weak, infirm, or sickly.
10.
having an unusual, unexpected, or random quality, behavior, result, pattern, etc.: a crazy reel that spins in either direction.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crazy

Senseless, impractical, unsound, bizarre might apply.

;) I concur!
 
I thought the uncle did make that accusation. Didnt he say " the family should not have been expected to do that suctioning" or something along those lines. And they also said the suction device was given to them with the bucket, according to some articles. So they are making that claim, imo.

Didn't one of the verified nurses on this site say that the tonsil suction device is not normally in an PICU room, and a nurse would have had to bring it to them?
 
Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
#New: "#Jahi continues to be treated medically and is doing well. We're staying out of media unless there is a huge update." Says family.

She's doing well? WELL???? :banghead:
When will these people accept this child's death? moo :moo:
 
This is truly nuts. It is very hard to deal with people in denial, but there is no point keeping a corpse going. How long can this situation remain unchanged?

Sadly I envision a macabre setting many, many months from now. :(
 
I don't think we are allowed to share social media links or donation links. But google new beginnings community facebook.

You are correct, donation links are not allowed here unless approved by administration or the owners of this site.
 
Didn't one of the verified nurses on this site say that the tonsil suction device is not normally in an PICU room, and a nurse would have had to bring it to them?

I thought I remember someone saying it's a standard tool to have set up in a PICU room.

My memory is really not anything to go by though. :scared:
 
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