Feces :/

[expat79]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the stained underwear, but especially since we're talking about children, isn't it very possible that the kids simply didn't wipe themselves well?

I know that JB was known to call for adults to wipe her...at 6 years old, could that be because Patsy had told her she needed help (due to all her soiled panties)?

I'm not trying to make excuses, and poor wiping explains neither the fecal smearing BR was known to do, nor the soiled box of chocolates...just trying to make sure I understand what we're talking about here with the underwear.

When put into context with everything else, I think this whole discussion regarding fecal matter and bedwetting is an indicator of psycho-sexual dysfunction within the household.

I'm sensing that the current popular consensus among people who follow this case is moving toward a BDI theory.

Which brings me to a question: does anyone know of any close relatives or family friends who passed away roughly a year before JR was killed? If BDI is to believed, then it's likely that abuse was being inflicted on BR, who then in turn inflicted it on JR. If the R's knew of it or suspected something, but the perp passed away, that would perhaps explain the cover-up.

Are there certain aspects of this case that have not been revealed to the public? It would make sense. Everyone is protecting BR.

 

[txsvicki]

I can't see why JonBenet would have fecal stains on every single piece of underwear unless she weren't changing them daily or had loose movements daily. Even if she didn't bother to wipe there should have been times that no stain would be transferred on at least some panties. There were lots of panties in her drawer. I have wondered if Patsy was giving her laxatives before performance times to flatten her tummy or something.

 

[FreeSafety36]

When put into context with everything else, I think this whole discussion regarding fecal matter and bedwetting is an indicator of psycho-sexual dysfunction within the household.

I'm sensing that the current popular consensus among people who follow this case is moving toward a BDI theory.

Which brings me to a question: does anyone know of any close relatives or family friends who passed away roughly a year before JR was killed? If BDI is to believed, then it's likely that abuse was being inflicted on BR, who then in turn inflicted it on JR. If the R's knew of it or suspected something, but the perp passed away, that would perhaps explain the cover-up.

Are there certain aspects of this case that have not been revealed to the public? It would make sense. Everyone is protecting BR.

FTR, I feel the older brother, John Andrew, was likely to have been BR's abuser (possibly JB's as well, though I think BR was just as likely to have been JB's).

BR's fecal smearing started, from what I've been able to read, during PR's first battle with cancer. During that time, PR's mother was staying with them to take care of PR and JBR, even going so far as sleeping in JB's room. I've noticed that in the interviews when that is talked about, nothing is mentioned about Nedra taking care of BR, who'd have been only 5 or 6 at the time himself. John Andrew would have been what, 16 or 17? I'm thinking it's possible he saw the opportunity, and told his step-mom's mother, "hey, I'll take care of Burke. You're doing enough as it is."

His room was on the same level of the house as the children's. The timeline adds up for the abuse to have started then, while PR was too sick to pay attention and Nedra was too busy taking care of PR and JBR.

But, like most everything, it's just a theory. Nothing concrete to back it up.

 

[Meara]

FTR, I feel the older brother, John Andrew, was likely to have been BR's abuser (possibly JB's as well, though I think BR was just as likely to have been JB's).

BR's fecal smearing started, from what I've been able to read, during PR's first battle with cancer. During that time, PR's mother was staying with them to take care of PR and JBR, even going so far as sleeping in JB's room. I've noticed that in the interviews when that is talked about, nothing is mentioned about Nedra taking care of BR, who'd have been only 5 or 6 at the time himself. John Andrew would have been what, 16 or 17? I'm thinking it's possible he saw the opportunity, and told his step-mom's mother, "hey, I'll take care of Burke. You're doing enough as it is."

His room was on the same level of the house as the children's. The timeline adds up for the abuse to have started then, while PR was too sick to pay attention and Nedra was too busy taking care of PR and JBR.

But, like most everything, it's just a theory. Nothing concrete to back it up.

No proof, but interesting. Patsy was staying in JAR's room while Nedra was there, which means JAR was sleeping in the bedroom next to Burke's at the other end of the house.

 

[txsvicki]

Kolar's book mentions that SBP can be caused by anger and loneliness. Sexual abuse doesn't have to be a factor, but surely something has to give a kid the idea in the first place. Maybe it can start with hitting then progress to sexual as the child learns about it from other kids or being told a little about sexual things?

 

[FreeSafety36]

Kolar's book mentions that SBP can be caused by anger and loneliness. Sexual abuse doesn't have to be a factor, but surely something has to give a kid the idea in the first place. Maybe it can start with hitting then progress to sexual as the child learns about it from other kids or being told a little about sexual things?

I can't dispute him, I'm no expert in the field. I only know that a close friend of mine who worked for the Mayo clinic as a psychological researcher, and another close friend who is a school teacher, have both mentioned to me in the past that small children playing with their own excrement is considered a sign of sexual abuse (I used to work with psychiatric patients, who have a tendency to do that as well, and had asked if they might know why). Because of those conversations, sexual abuse is immediately what comes to my mind.

 

[pageantmom]

I can't see why JonBenet would have fecal stains on every single piece of underwear unless she weren't changing them daily or had loose movements daily. Even if she didn't bother to wipe there should have been times that no stain would be transferred on at least some panties. There were lots of panties in her drawer. I have wondered if Patsy was giving her laxatives before performance times to flatten her tummy or something.

For younger kids in pageants, weight doesn't matter.
If you're like 10 or 12, it might start to matter a little bit.
By the time you're 13, weight definitely matters.
But at age 6, she would have won the same whether she was fat or thin. They don't care about weight in pageants at that age.

Editing back in to say: On second thought, it wouldn't matter to the JUDGES if JonBenet was heavy, but, it might've mattered to PATSY.

 

[gramcracker]

for anyone interested, who hasn't read this previously

Please use this thread to pose questions to Dr. Bea. You need to provide as much information as possible when you ask your question. For example. I asked Dr. Bea if it was considered normal behavior to dress your 5 year old daughter up in sexually suggestive dresses and enter her in beauty pageants. She had to ask me about 10 follow up questions about the pageants themselves and the dresses . Long story. So remember as much background info as possible. Dr. Bea knows nothing about this case other than JBR was murdered, found in her basement and no one has been charged.

I did ask Dr. Bea about a 6 year old defecating in her bed. Dr. Bea said this is an absolute sign of extreme stress. Extreme stress. Very disturbing she said.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=830"]The Doctor is IN! - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[prima.facie]

I can't see why JonBenet would have fecal stains on every single piece of underwear unless she weren't changing them daily or had loose movements daily. Even if she didn't bother to wipe there should have been times that no stain would be transferred on at least some panties. There were lots of panties in her drawer. I have wondered if Patsy was giving her laxatives before performance times to flatten her tummy or something.

she may have been changing them once dirtied and putting them back into her drawer so nobody would find out.

PR may have given her laxatives or she just had serious bowel issues due to stress/anxiety/poor eating etc etc.



that poor child

 

[txsvicki]

I read a lot of the linked thread on FFJ. There was a list of doctor visits that I had forgotten. There were 3 "falls" not counting the cheek laceration from a golf club. A fall on the nose, a fall injuring the area above the eye, and a pulled back fingernail from another. That is an awful lot of falls in a girl and especially one dancing and used to pageants. Maybe she was being hit or pushed repeatedly before and concurrent with sexual abuse.

 

[FreeSafety36]

I read a lot of the linked thread on FFJ. There was a list of doctor visits that I had forgotten. There were 3 "falls" not counting the cheek laceration from a golf club. A fall on the nose, a fall injuring the area above the eye, and a pulled back fingernail from another. That is an awful lot of falls in a girl and especially one dancing and used to pageants. Maybe she was being hit or pushed repeatedly before and concurrent with sexual abuse.

I was thinking about all her "falls" the other day. Seemed like a lot to me too, but I wasn't sure.

I'd like to know what her pediatrician charged for an office visit, and compare it to other pediatricians in the vicinity at the time. What I'm getting at is I wonder if this guy had rates considerably higher than his colleagues, and for the added cost, patients had the assurance that he wouldn't ask too many questions...

 

[gitana1]

Anyone else find these doctors "sex" questions and comments strange ??

Are these normal questions about a 3-5 year old girl ??

Seem really weird to me ... was the doctor suspecting something even back then ??

.

---8/31/93: Responding to Beuf's questions, Patsy says JBR doesn't have any phobias and no aspect of JBR's sexual education needed to be discussed.

--10/5/94: Came in for checkup, doctor notices scar on left cheek. She'd been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week after the accident, a plastic surgeon was consulted. No injury to cheekbone. Beuf is told (at this visit) that she's getting along with brothers and older sister. Wearing pullups at night because she's wetting bed. Patsy completes developmental questionnaire, and says there are no aspects of JonBenet's behavior or sex education she needed to discuss, and also notes JBR has no fears or phobias.

--8/27/96: Patsy reports JBR's a good sleeper, wasn't hard to get to bed, and was easily awakened in the morning. Not interested in opposit sex, behaved modestly in public, and didn't engage in sex play with her friends. She was, however, asking about sex roles and reproduction. She was not rude or afraid of either parent. Didn't seem to be bossy with brother, didn't react with trantrums, and was active. Loved fruit and some vegetables. Patsy said she was delightful and doing very well. Burke had his annual checkup same day.

from post #39 here : http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=830&page=4

I have a feeling it;s just the way this doctor did things. Easier to use the
same form for all ages. Not great, though if that's what he did because different ages have different needs.

BTW, I note that bed wetting and poop accidents are common at age 6: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=RAzg4yiKyEZqKFJ7__YU_w&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU

 

[gramcracker]

I think of toileting accidents at age 6 as random/sporadic. JB's were frequent, and often daily/nightly

my two siblings and I wet the bed at night until the ages of 10-11. (for our brother it lasted until he was 13). it was purely emotional, because it happened at home where the problems were and never at our grandmother's where we felt loved and safe. it happened at home sunday thru thursday nights but never friday/saturday nights (away from home)

 

[DeeDee249]

Some kids also wet the bed because they are afraid to get up and go when the house is dark. In this case, it isn't the bedwetting that is the problem- it is correct that many kids still wet the bed at that age, even BR's age.

The REAL problem is when kids that age wet or soil when AWAKE. That is definitely NOT normal, and JB did that.

 

[BBB167893]

The typical IDI attack line any time an ACTUAL case expert says something you don't agree with. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Hey, I'll tell you guys what: maybe I was a little abrasive there. Leaving that aside, it wouldn't be the first time that someone examining a cold case file found something that was overlooked.

 

[borndem]

I think of toileting accidents at age 6 as random/sporadic. JB's were frequent, and often daily/nightly

my two siblings and I wet the bed at night until the ages of 10-11. (for our brother it lasted until he was 13). it was purely emotional, because it happened at home where the problems were and never at our grandmother's where we felt loved and safe. it happened at home sunday thru thursday nights but never friday/saturday nights (away from home)

I am sorry to hear that, gramcracker. And all 3 of you had the same problems -- in several ways, I would guess. Stress? Fear? Punishment? Parents arguing? Molestation? Hunger?

No need to answer -- your words, just based on what you said, sound all too familiar. Whether directly or indirectly, I'm sure all of us here have heard or experienced those same bad feelings. A big load for a child.

I am glad that you three had a haven in the midst of whatever made you feel so badly at home.

 

[Arnie M]

I have a feeling it;s just the way this doctor did things. Easier to use the
same form for all ages. Not great, though if that's what he did because different ages have different needs.

BTW, I note that bed wetting and poop accidents are common at age 6: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=RAzg4yiKyEZqKFJ7__YU_w&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU

I am leaning that way myself now that others have mentioned the use of standard "questionnaires" by some doctors

We then have to assume Dr.B "cherry-picked" his answers (from the questionnaire) for his statements because the concern was possible sexual abuse.

Looking at it that way , the "Sex" comments would make sense

 

[pageantmom]

I was just thinking about when I was 6. We lived in a big house, but, my parents bedroom was like 2 rooms away from mine and they could always hear me and got up right away if I was calling out to them (had a bad dream, or woke up feeling sick, or scared of the dark, heard a noise, whatever).
The way that house was laid out, would they have even heard JonBenet if she woke up in the night and called out for her mommy because she was scared to walk to the bathroom by herself? You know? Her bedroom was so far away from them. Sometimes kids don't have anything wrong but just want the reassurance that mom or dad will come to them right away if they need them, ya know? It kind of makes me sad for JonBenet that they out the kids on to different floor, and no wonder she was always in Burke's room. He probably got tired of being woken up to comfort her. I don't mean he killed her or whatever, but, responsibility fell on him that should have been on mom and dad.

 

[txsvicki]

In my experience with kids, the younger always woke the older one then they'd both go get into bed with mom and dad. There's not been any mention of JonBenet or Burke ever getting into their parents bed during the night. Burke was old enough to probably not wake up and be scared, but not JonBenet.

 

[Tawny]

I know each family is different, and people have personal preferences, but we've passed up houses that had the master suite on a different floor from where my kids room would be. JMO