FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[SuziQ]

IMO he wasn't gonna take those A-holes gettin away with it anymore.

MOO GZ blamed the recent change in the neighborhood and the influx of renters caused by the economic downturn, for ruining and bringing crime to his neighborhood. Also MOO, He viewed the young black males as "the problem" and he was fed up with the fact that those A-holes felt they could just strut right through his neighborhood, taking what they please. (my own stab at guessing GZ's motivation and certainly not my own thoughts here).

I don't know that he planned on shooting anyone. But I do sincerely believe he was hoping he could collar this kid and have him detained and waiting for LE to arrive. I think Mr. Z envisioned being the hero who saved the day, getting slapped on the back by cops, etc.


The problem with a neighborhood watchman carrying a weapon is that temptation to become too vigilant, too cocky and engage the criminals - when all you are really supposed to be doing is watching and reporting to police.

I think GZ has a real need to be a hero and teach the punks of the world a lesson. I think it irked him that he was so darned vigilant at this self appointed job and his neighbors were not nearly grateful enough. In fact, some of them seemed to not appreciate his efforts and advice on how to best secure their homes at all.

I believe all of this combined to create the tragic events the night Trayvon was killed.

Please repost your earlier link on "Hero complex"
IMO, it hit the nail on head regarding GZ.

 

[JeannaT]

Yes it is illegal to follow somebody in public. If you were following me around in public and I told a cop, he wouldn't tell me it isn't illegal. He would confront you and tell you to stop. He may even detain you for questioning. That makes it illegal, just because there aren't cops around to tell you right then and there to knock it off doesn't make it legal. And if you are following somebody and they decide to run, you don't chase after them. If they are running more than likely they are in fear of you and can take action to defend themselves.

It isn't illegal.

GZ had ALREADY called the cops to come question him. What he was doing was completely legal. I didn't see Tray calling LE to get GZ to stop.

Yes, you can chase after people if you are following them and they run.

I'm not trying to be rude here, but you don't know the law. If you suspect someone of a crime, you are ABSOLUTELY within your rights to chase them to keep an eye on them until LE (that you've called) arrives.

If it were illegal to follow someone, the jails would be FULL to bursting. It's not a crime.

 

[curl_in_progress]

Anderson Cooper is going to play a cleaned up version of the audio from the 911 calls shortly.

ETA that it's just GZ's initial call to determine if he said a racial slur. I was hoping it would be the one with someone screaming for help.

 

[HiHater]

They couldn't access the phone from "day one", due to not having a warrant, and I think the parents have been quite clear that this girl will only speak to this lawyer, no one else.

I'm not sure why you believe she would have no problem appearing before a grand jury. Her parents have basically said no.

They would not have needed a warrant, Trayvon was not being investigated for a crime---at least he should not have been. The phone could have been used to make a notification, just like his wallet would have been.

Even IF they needed a warrant, this happened Sunday night. Are you trying to say that first thing Monday morning they could not have gotten one?

ETA: Her parents have not said no to a grand jury. They said NO to Sanford PD and the general public.

 

[LambChop]

THIS is SO COMPLETELY wrong. I don't know where people come up with information like this, porkchop. In a public place, or on private property that you have a right to be on, you can ABSOLUTELY follow someone. You think you recognize someone who stole your car and you want to see what car they are going to. You think you recognize someone you went to high school with and want to get a better look. You think you just saw someone steal a dog, and you follow them all the way across town to see if that's true.

YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY follow someone if you want to. With friendly or hostile intentions, providing those intentions are based on legal reasons, i.e., trying to make sure you know where someone is when the cops finally arrive to check them out.

But those are not the instructions from the Neighborhood Watch handbook. He was to notify police and wait for them to arrive. That's it. He was told he did not have to follow TM and he ignored that. He had no legal right to go after TM as TM was doing nothing wrong. GZ was not in a uniform, did not have a badge and was using his personal car. TM had a right to feel threatened.

I can remember when I first got my license and went to a dance with a group of my girlfriends. An unmarked car pulled along side of us and motioned for us to pull over. There were a few young guys but the driver was older. I refused and was headed for the nearest police station when they "finally" showed me their badges. I was asked why I didn't pull over. I told them I had no idea who they were and when they came up close to my bumper in the back I accelerated to get away from them. I never got a ticket and the older detective apologized for scaring us and let us go.

People just don't think sometimes. They assume the worst and don't use good judgment. It's called Neighborhood WATCH, not chase and restrain, not chase down and shoot the person. It is very specific about calling it in and stopping right there. I don't think GZ intended to shoot TM when he started out. I think he got aggravated because TM tried to get away and did not think maybe TM thought GZ was a predator. It's why we train our police so well to deal with the public. GZ clearly made a mistake that cost a family their son because he would not listen and refused to follow instructions. jmo

 

[christee]

I'm watching a live feed of the march and rally in New York for Trayvon. Things are getting tense.

http://www.ustream.tv/timcast#utm_campaign=ustreamsocials&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=timcast

 

[HiHater]

So this is a bit of an offshoot conversation, but it's bugging me. The girlfriend was on the phone with Tray, he was walking away from someone who was following him, she advised him to run, she heard what was obviously a fight and the phone went dead and then what?

This was about 7:30 at night. Tray's family didn't know where he was until 8 a.m. the next morning.

The girlfriend said she tried to call him but the phone was dead. Did she attempt any other way to contact him? Call his mother? Call LE? Tell her mother? It's so sad to me that it appears people closest to him reacted so little when he was missing.

His father didn't seem to do anything more than call the police to determine whether he'd been arrested.

His father called his phone, and has said so in numerous interviews. His father also reported him as a MISSING PERSON. What more could he have done?

 

[annalia]

Yes they did, and I posted the article where the parents said she wouldn't talk to LE, only that lawyer, upthread.

Here's the article:

Her parents have requested that only the lawyer be allowed to question her.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2pw33ZWAYZ

No, what you're saying is a misrepresentaion of what was reported. The mother never said she refuses to allow her to speak to anyone in the future, ie, the grand jury.

At that time, the mother was fearful for the girl's safety and only wanted the lawyer to ask her questions. Local LE never bothered to contact her, her mother never refused them.

They were turning everything over regarding the girl's information to the Justice Dept as they no longer trust the SPD.

 

[HiHater]

He had his cell phone on him. And his father was in a home 70 yards away. They could have tried to knock on a few doors to see if there was anyone else who heard anything that night, if anyone was missing a young teenaged boy or knew of a home close by where a teenager lived who fit Tray's description. They just assumed that Trayvon did not belong in that gated community.

Plain and simple, we know that the neighborhood was not canvassed.

 

[LambChop]

They would not have needed a warrant, Trayvon was not being investigated for a crime---at least he should not have been. The phone could have been used to make a notification, just like his wallet would have been.

Even IF they needed a warrant, this happened Sunday night. Are you trying to say that first thing Monday morning they could not have gotten one?

ETA: Her parents have not said no to a grand jury. They said NO to Sanford PD and the general public.

Oh, if they wanted that warrant bad enough they could get ahold of a judge. I've heard of them getting a judge out of bed to sign one. lol

 

[Velouria]

This is just not true. They were turning everything over to the Justice Dept. They never said that they will not allow her to ever speak to anyone.

Exactly. The parents were not refusing to turn information over to authorities, just NOT the Sanford PD. And I don't blame them one bit.

Furthermore, the girl's parents wanted the girl questioned and speaking through the attorney for the purpose of the interview (ABC). No where in the article did it state she would not be allowed to speak to other LE agencies.

 

[chefmom]

He had his cell phone on him. And his father was in a home 70 yards away. They could have tried to knock on a few doors to see if there was anyone else who heard anything that night, if anyone was missing a young teenaged boy or knew of a home close by where a teenager lived who fit Tray's description. They just assumed that Trayvon did not belong in that gated community.

Ok. Here's where I am confused about this, so if anyone can direct me to something I've missed, please do. If TM was shot 70 yards from his fathers home, why didn't anyone from the home hear the commotion going on down the street? Were there sirens from the police cars or ambulance? How many response vehicles would have shown up? LE, Fire, Coronor? Why didn't someone say, "Hey! Is that the kid staying in that unit there with Mr. Martin?" Or why didn't anyone from the Martin home know about all of the commotion going on down the street? Did the little brother not think it odd that Trayvon hadn't made it back from the store? Did he look out and see all of the cars and people coming and going? I just don't understand how all of this was going on so close to TM's house and no one from the home bothered to come down and check it out. I'd like to understand this because I have trouble understanding that. TIA!

 

[SuziQ]

Maybe he did not have any ID on him,being 17 isn't that also a possibility?Without ID how would they know who to notify?

By going through Trayvon's phone and calling someone. And I don't think LE needed a warrant to do that either. Cops go through phones all the time to make ID's and notify someone.

 

[HiHater]

I'm watching a live feed of the march and rally in New York for Trayvon. Things are getting tense.

http://www.ustream.tv/timcast#utm_campaign=ustreamsocials&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=timcast

Yes, they do seem peaceful though. Just loud

 

[CathyinTexas]

Unless you are a cop or a licensed PI it is illegal to follow anybody in public places at all. It is called stalking. Further more once somebody starts running from you, it can be considered assault in certain cases if you chase them.

That is why Cathy I don't understand the people in here that say Zimmerman shot Tray in self defense. He was following, then chasing somebody who clearly was in fear of him. Even if Tray stopped running to fight him, by law Tray was the one who was standing his ground. And it is nonsense to think anything else.

On another note, I have a feeling that they will charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder and then cut a deal with him for manslaughter in exchange for his testimony against the Sanford PD. I think the Justice Department is going to go after some of the Sanford PD for their role in the coverup of Tray's death.

I totally agree with you, and hope he will be charged with something and have to pay the price. Same with any LE who did not follow the law.

 

[JeannaT]

I'm watching a live feed of the march and rally in New York for Trayvon. Things are getting tense.

http://www.ustream.tv/timcast#utm_campaign=ustreamsocials&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=timcast

LE needs to hasten this procedure so that this whole country doesn't blow up in rage.

I would think a grand jury could be convened in an emergency situation, so that this doesn't turn into extreme violence.

I fully do understand there's an old history of LE not reacting to violence against Blacks in the US, including the horrific story of Emmett Till, but this is a different day and age and I guess I'm still smarting from the mainstream media's refusal to cover the Christian/Newsome murders. Those crimes were so horrific that you can't even google that house where they occurred - Google has removed that property.

I just want the truth to come out, whatever the truth is, before the streets erupt in violence.

None of us - NONE OF US - know what happened that night. Until we do it would be nice to have patience to wait and hear the outcome without further bloodshed.

 

[mikeysmommom]

He had his cell phone on him. And his father was in a home 70 yards away. They could have tried to knock on a few doors to see if there was anyone else who heard anything that night, if anyone was missing a young teenaged boy or knew of a home close by where a teenager lived who fit Tray's description. They just assumed that Trayvon did not belong in that gated community.

Did his dad hear a gunshot?Does not seem like he was far enough away
Not to hear the gunshot.If my son was out of the house and someone was shot in my gated community and he did not come home I sure as heck would have been trying to find out what happened.

 

[HiHater]

Did his dad hear a gunshot?Does not seem like he was far enough away
Not to hear the gunshot.If my son was out of the house and someone was shot in my gated community and he did not come home I sure as heck would have been trying to find out what happened.

Most of the people on the 911 tape wouldn't even go outside. Why would Trayvon's family have done so? They had no reason to believe it was him out there. Also, we don't know that his father was home, do we?

 

[CathyinTexas]

I agree completely. This has come as a major shock to them that they were not prepared to handle. Thank heavens that Trayvon's mother and father haven't backed down else it would have been swept neatly under the rug.

I am very impressed with the way they present themselves, such reserve. You can hear and see the pain and grief but they are not angry or attempting to incite others, just the opposite. They just want justice for their dear son.

 

[HiHater]

Seems like NYPD should have been prepared for this rally...