The teen took off running after he saw GZ and GZ was told not to follow him. Someone who is running is trying to get away.
Where is the self-defense?
FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain
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The teen took off running after he saw GZ and GZ was told not to follow him. Someone who is running is trying to get away.
Where is the self-defense?
RANCH
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I'm with you. I plan on listening to the 911 calls sometime tomorrow. And maybe not posting about them until things settle down.
LolaMoon08
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I'm also going to try to get some sleep? I don't know how much I will be able to get after listening to the tapes? I want to know why Zimmerman's shirt wasn't taken in as evidence? Tray's blood would have to be on his white shirt if he shot Tray while Tray was on top of him.
I honestly think that when Zimmerman caught up with Tray, he had that gun in his hand and confronted him with the gun. That is why Tray didn't just run like he had the first time. I believe Tray did what anyone would have done had they been followed by someone, ran away from them, and then was confronted once again by the same person. He was scared and imo, it was Tray who was trying to defend himself.
You know what, this is what I want Zimmerman to answer ---
1) Where was the gun when you were on the phone with LE?
2) When you got out of the car, was the gun in a holster, your pocket, or in your hand?
3) When you caught up with Tray, did you have the gun in your hand?
4) Did you point the gun at Tray at any time prior to any physical contact?
I also want answers to this --
1) When Tray was shot, was he on top of Zimmerman? How close was Tray when Zimmerman shot him. Why didn't Zimmerman attempt to give Tray CPR after shooting him? Why did he just stand over his body? Why didn't he run and continue screaming for help? If that was him screaming for help? You all have to admit, the screaming does stop immediately after the shot just like Mary Coucher (sp?) has stated! She is the one who told LE that night that it was Tray screaming and LE corrected her?
I don't know. I'm going to walk away for a while. I'll come back tomorrow.
I honestly think that when Zimmerman caught up with Tray, he had that gun in his hand and confronted him with the gun. That is why Tray didn't just run like he had the first time. I believe Tray did what anyone would have done had they been followed by someone, ran away from them, and then was confronted once again by the same person. He was scared and imo, it was Tray who was trying to defend himself.
You know what, this is what I want Zimmerman to answer ---
1) Where was the gun when you were on the phone with LE?
2) When you got out of the car, was the gun in a holster, your pocket, or in your hand?
3) When you caught up with Tray, did you have the gun in your hand?
4) Did you point the gun at Tray at any time prior to any physical contact?
I also want answers to this --
1) When Tray was shot, was he on top of Zimmerman? How close was Tray when Zimmerman shot him. Why didn't Zimmerman attempt to give Tray CPR after shooting him? Why did he just stand over his body? Why didn't he run and continue screaming for help? If that was him screaming for help? You all have to admit, the screaming does stop immediately after the shot just like Mary Coucher (sp?) has stated! She is the one who told LE that night that it was Tray screaming and LE corrected her?
I don't know. I'm going to walk away for a while. I'll come back tomorrow.
Steely Dan
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Wow! They didn't arrest that dude until they had to?! That guy is a psycho.
I just listened to all the 911 calls
I didn't hear anything on those tapes that make it sound like GZ was in any trouble. In fact it points to me that GZ went looking for trouble.
BBM
They say there was nothing on the 911 tapes that refuted his version, but I haven't seen them releasing his version. Any wounds that GZ may have gotten would be gone by now and the opportunity to take photographs of his wounds is long past gone. My guess is he didn't have anything worth photographing. I may be wrong about them not having photos of GZ's wounds, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
I think he ran after him, (there was no threat as far as I can tell), and then he either found him hiding or caught up to him and I'd bet dollars to donuts GZ initiated any melee. If Trayvon initiated it, it was because he felt threatened. As someone pointed out who the hell knows the intent of a non police officer, possibly brandishing a gun.
BBM
So it seems that GZ saw Trayvon walking along and thought he was on drugs. (Does anyone know what the autopsy said?) He followed him in his truck. If Trayvon is walking then he had to be moving slowly behind him. The kid turns around (I'm guessing to see if he knows this person) and steps forward (to get a better look in the rain.) Trayvon realizes he doesn't know the guy and takes off running. The Big Hero gets out of his car and starts chasing the kid. What happens next we'll never know for sure, except that GZ kills Trayvon. The obvious thing is that if Trayvon took off running then GZ was wrong to chase him. He had not witnessed him committing any crime. It seems to me that he saw the kid was black, saw he was in his neighborhood, knew there were some burglaries recently, wanted to be the Big Hero who caught the guy and took off after him. JMO
I know you're not justifying, but I just want to point out that it's that thought process that leads to killing innocent children. Unless you've been through police training you shouldn't be taking off after people just because you think you know they're up to no good.
BBM
I don't understand what you mean. If someone is chasing me with a gun for no good reason and I turn around and start struggling with them and they shoot me, how is it that they're just using self defense? If that's the case then every serial killer could argue self defense if a victim fights back I'd think. JMO
ETA: I'm not saying GZ is a serial killer. I'm just making a general point.
LolaMoon08
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All of this!! Thanks wasn't enough!
Yoda
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I know he should not have followed him, but I can see why he might have- to keep track of him for police, and afaik there is no law about following people. And if he approached TM, he should not have, and afaik there is no law about approaching people, I am assuming from witness statements in articles that there was a physical altercation before the shot. IF there was a fight then I can see the self defense claim.
This was horrible. TM was out walking back from a store like thousands of other teens do. He should not have been killed. But what can be changed? I am honestly asking because this should never happen again. I am struggling to find, besides GZ personal choices which were all legal until possibly the altercation, anything that could be changed.
Afaik. As far as I know.
Why did he need to "keep track of him for police," especially considering 911 operator told him not to do it? This teenager was not doing anything illegal when GZ observed him and decided for no apparent reason he was "suspicious."
Steely Dan
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There is approaching people, there is approaching people in a menacing way, there is approaching people in a menacing way while holding a gun. They all have degrees of threat. The final one being the worst.
What can change is making permits for carrying guns a lot harder to get, or immediately arresting the person and bringing them in for extensive questioning to make sure their story doesn't change.
I'd bet my soul that if this was reversed Trayvon would be in jail awaiting trial.
LolaMoon08
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I wonder if when Zimmerman went in for medical care if there was blood taken? I think we would already know if Tray had drugs in his system because you know LE would have been screaming from the rooftops had there been illegal drugs in his system. So, I think it's fair to ask, could it have been Zimmerman on drugs and acting like a paranoid, drugged up psycho?
Maybe had LE treated this case as a possible homicide from the beginning instead of automatically calling it self defense, we would have these answers?
Maybe had LE treated this case as a possible homicide from the beginning instead of automatically calling it self defense, we would have these answers?
Yoda
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Snipped for space
"I know you're not justifying, but I just want to point out that it's that thought process that leads to killing innocent children. Unless you've been through police training you shouldn't be taking off after people just because you think you know they're up to no good."
Totally agree!!! He should not have followed him he should have waited for LE!
"I don't understand what you mean. If someone is chasing me with a gun for no good reason and I turn around and start struggling with them and they shoot me, how is it that they're just using self defense? If that's the case then every serial killer could argue self defense if a victim fights back I'd think. JMO
ETA: I'm not saying GZ is a serial killer. I'm just making a general point."
I wasn't thinking he was running with the gun in his hand :doh: but it would make sense and then self defense goes right out the window. In my mid I pictured it still in his waistband and he pulled it out during the struggle. Now that you pointed it out, with his actions of following him in the car and then on foot it, it seems he would be more likely to have it out then still in his waistband.
"I know you're not justifying, but I just want to point out that it's that thought process that leads to killing innocent children. Unless you've been through police training you shouldn't be taking off after people just because you think you know they're up to no good."
Totally agree!!! He should not have followed him he should have waited for LE!
"I don't understand what you mean. If someone is chasing me with a gun for no good reason and I turn around and start struggling with them and they shoot me, how is it that they're just using self defense? If that's the case then every serial killer could argue self defense if a victim fights back I'd think. JMO
ETA: I'm not saying GZ is a serial killer. I'm just making a general point."
I wasn't thinking he was running with the gun in his hand :doh: but it would make sense and then self defense goes right out the window. In my mid I pictured it still in his waistband and he pulled it out during the struggle. Now that you pointed it out, with his actions of following him in the car and then on foot it, it seems he would be more likely to have it out then still in his waistband.
Steely Dan
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I just think this guy had visions of being handed the keys to the city by the mayor for capturing the neighborhood serial burglar, women throwing themselves at him and men patting him on the back and buying him beers while news channels do stories on his bravery and smarts.
I see him running after the guy with gun in hand like a 70's cop show. JMO
LolaMoon08
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I just want to point one more thing out... even Zimmerman was easily able to see that Tray was just a teenager. He says so on the call. I know we have a conversation earlier, before the release of the calls, about Tray's height, etc... clearly even Zimmerman knew this was just a boy.
Steely Dan
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I hate to defend this guy in any way, but teenagers to late twenties seem to be the most violent. JMO
We're not talking about an eight year old kid.
Well this teen tried to run away from GZ (based on GZ's own words). Doesn't sound like this teen was in a fighting mood.
LolaMoon08
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That or he didn't feel like being chopped up in pieces and stashed in a freezer to have his internal organs eaten by some sick perv. Who knows what was going through Tray's mind? He had to be so scared.
Steely, yes, I do understand they are the most violent. I was just pointing out that Tray obviously didn't look like a man/adult. He looked his age.
Yoda
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We have over 150 homes in our neighborhood and I live on the main road. Even if we don't all know each other many of us get to know the pattern of behavior of our neighbors. Actually sounds creepy now that I think about it. But when there is someone walking around at an odd time (teens, kids, adults all have patterns of when returning home, where they usually walk and hang out etc) we check it out and omg just realized that yes we have got into the car to figure out who they were and what they were up to. But we have never taken a gun and my husband does pull up and talk to them. And if they disappeared (happened with my husband once) out of site he didn't follow he called the police. The handful of times a suspicious person was in our neighborhood there was always at least one other neighbor out checking it out or had called the police. I am proud to say that our neighborhood is not a mind your own business neighborhood. With all of that said I have no idea if GZ was thinking "I haven't seen this kid, this is unusual for someone to be out at this time etc" but since writing this I can easily see why he was suspicious-no matter what race, sex, age. And again, TM did nothing to deserve being shot! Even if he didn't know anyone that lived there and had a criminal record that still doesn't give anyone the right to shoot him!
Steely Dan
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Somebody linked the following story above. I just want to point some things out that seem really hinky to me.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/u...-florida-teenagers-shooting-death.html?src=tp
...Frustration also grew after the parents said they had been told by detectives that Mr. Zimmerman had a squeaky clean record. They knew this, the detectives said, because Mr. Zimmerman told them. But Mr. Zimmerman had been arrested in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a police officer. The charges were later dropped.
The police said it took them some time to run the check.
A criminal background check was conducted within 12 to 24 hours after we got the call, Sgt. David Morgenstern said....
Seriously, I had to read that three times before I was sure I wasn't having a reading comprehension problem.
Just to reiterate one line; "They knew this, the detectives said, because Mr. Zimmerman told them."
So the cops will now just take your word for it and let you go on your way after shooting someone? Howabout having someone run his record while he's in an interrogation room being asked questions and then confronted with that lie when the results come in. All while being videotaped.
IIRC, in most jurisdictions when a cop fires his weapon he fills out an extensive report, is questioned and put on desk duty until a full investigation is done. In this case a civilian shoots someone and they don't even take him in?
That article makes me think even moreso that he was acting on visions of heroism dancing in his head.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/u...-florida-teenagers-shooting-death.html?src=tp
...Frustration also grew after the parents said they had been told by detectives that Mr. Zimmerman had a squeaky clean record. They knew this, the detectives said, because Mr. Zimmerman told them. But Mr. Zimmerman had been arrested in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a police officer. The charges were later dropped.
The police said it took them some time to run the check.
A criminal background check was conducted within 12 to 24 hours after we got the call, Sgt. David Morgenstern said....
Seriously, I had to read that three times before I was sure I wasn't having a reading comprehension problem.
Just to reiterate one line; "They knew this, the detectives said, because Mr. Zimmerman told them."
So the cops will now just take your word for it and let you go on your way after shooting someone? Howabout having someone run his record while he's in an interrogation room being asked questions and then confronted with that lie when the results come in. All while being videotaped.
IIRC, in most jurisdictions when a cop fires his weapon he fills out an extensive report, is questioned and put on desk duty until a full investigation is done. In this case a civilian shoots someone and they don't even take him in?
That article makes me think even moreso that he was acting on visions of heroism dancing in his head.
Steely Dan
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If the kid looks suspicious then he calls 911 and lets them handle it. JMO
Steely Dan
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According to this article GZ was taken into custody and questioned; http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/opinion/blow-the-curious-case-of-trayvon-martin.html?_r=2
...When police arrived, Trayvon was face down in the grass with a fatal bullet wound to the chest. Zimmerman was standing with blood on his face and the back of his head and grass stains on his back, according to The Orlando Sentinel.
Trayvons lifeless body was taken away, tagged and held. Zimmerman was taken into custody, questioned and released. Zimmerman said he was the one yelling for help. He said that he acted in self-defense. The police say that they have found no evidence to dispute Zimmermans claim....
Now I'd like to see the questioning video and know how long it took to question him.
...When police arrived, Trayvon was face down in the grass with a fatal bullet wound to the chest. Zimmerman was standing with blood on his face and the back of his head and grass stains on his back, according to The Orlando Sentinel.
Trayvons lifeless body was taken away, tagged and held. Zimmerman was taken into custody, questioned and released. Zimmerman said he was the one yelling for help. He said that he acted in self-defense. The police say that they have found no evidence to dispute Zimmermans claim....
Now I'd like to see the questioning video and know how long it took to question him.
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