FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[ynotdivein]

These calls are gut-wrenching.

Blessings on the dispatcher for call #7 (and all the dispatchers who fielded these calls). What an angel he was for that woman.

I cannot begin to imagine what it was like for Tray's family to hear his last moments in this way.

 

[LolaMoon08]

GZ's 911 call doesn't appear to support his idea of self-defense. The teenager went up to the car, looked at GZ and took off running (all of that based on GZ's call). So where is self-defense here? The teenager didn't go to GZ's car to get him out of the car, instead he took of running (so he didn't appear to have been in fighting mood).

I didn't even take it as Tray walking up to the car? It seemed to me that Zimmerman was slowly trailing Tray with his car and when he got up on Tray, Tray looked at him and that is when he says, "Oh yeah. He's checking me out now." WELL DUH!! You're following him! When he sees that he does not know who this crazy man following him is, he runs. How would Tray know if he was some type of Jeffrey Dahmer sicko?

 

[jjenny]

I didn't even take it as Tray walking up to the car? It seemed to me that Zimmerman was slowly trailing Tray with his car and when he got up on Tray, Tray looked at him and that is when he says, "Oh yeah. He's checking me out now." WELL DUH!! You're following him! When he sees that he does not know who this crazy man following him is, he runs. How would Tray know if he was some type of Jeffrey Dahmer sicko?

GZ says "he is coming towards me" and "he is coming to check me out" at one time of the call. Some time later he says "he is running." (as far as I understand GZ explained to 911 operator teenager took off running toward the back entrance).

 

[LolaMoon08]

GZ says "he is coming towards me" at one time of the call.

I believe Tray may have stopped and looked at Zimmerman, as Zimmerman came up on him. Maybe taking a few steps in his direction to see who the heck was following him, but he obviously wasn't confronting Zimmerman. Like you said, the poor kid ran away. You are 100% correct that none of these calls back up Zimmerman's claims of self defense.

It's time for an arrest and let a jury decide. Maybe Zimmerman will get lucky and they'll head to Pinellas County for a jury?

 

[jjenny]

I believe Tray may have stopped and looked at Zimmerman, as Zimmerman came up on him. Maybe taking a few steps in his direction to see who the heck was following him, but he obviously wasn't confronting Zimmerman. Like you said, the poor kid ran away. You are 100% correct that none of these calls back up Zimmerman's claims of self defense.

It's time for an arrest and let a jury decide. Maybe Zimmerman will get lucky and they'll head to Pinellas County for a jury?

I think GZ was in the car for the duration of a call. It doesn't sound like he is walking or anything. He is breathing evenly which I don't think he would do if he was on foot running after the teenager at the time of the call.

 

[Reader]

OpEd piece, certainly worth a read:

The Curious Case of Trayvon Martin

(apologies if it's been posted already)

ETA: Case summary, good read to catch-up on case

Justice Department Investigation Is Sought in Florida Teenager’s Shooting Death

Thanks, shana...The 2nd link states there were 2 shots:

On the recordings, one shot, an apparent warning or miss, is heard, followed by a voice begging or pleading, and a cry. A second shot is then heard, and the pleading stops.

“It is so clear that this was a 17-year-old boy pleading for his life, and someone shot him in cold blood,” said Natalie Jackson, one of the Martin family lawyers.

and this

Florida’s self-defense law, known as Stand Your Ground, grants immunity to people who act to protect themselves if they have a reasonable fear they will be killed or seriously injured.

“Stand Your Ground is a law that has really created a Wild West type environment in Florida,” said Brian Tannebaum, a criminal defense lawyer in Florida. “It allows people to kill people outside of their homes, if they are in reasonable fear for their lives. It’s a very low standard.”

But GZ wasn't protecting his own home...he chased Trayvon down for no reason and killed him...just unbelievable...tonite I'm ashamed of Florida and will be very upset if this man is not arrested. Let him claim and prove self defense in court.

I hadn't read before (in another article) that it took the father 12 hours to find out what happened to his son. He first called police to see if he was arrested....now why would he do this first? I think we know why now....

 

[LolaMoon08]

I think GZ was in the car for the duration of a call. It doesn't sound like he is walking or anything. He is breathing evenly which I don't think he would do if he was on foot running after the teenager at the time of the call.

You can hear him walking/driving! You can hear the wind blowing into the phone as he moves.

 

[ynotdivein]

GZ 911 call transcript part one. By yours truly, and my aged ears and I welcome and embrace all edits, corrections & improvements.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/george-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

GZ: This guy looks like he's up to no good, or on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around looking about."

D: This guy, is he white black or hispanic?

GZ: He looks black.

D: Did you see what he was wearing?

GZ: Yeah dark hoodie like a grey hoodie and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's (unclear) just staring. (crosstalk) at all the houses. And now he's just staring at me.

D: 1111 or one-eleven?

GZ: That's the clubhouse (crosstalk)

D: He's near the clubhouse right now?

GZ: Yeah now he's coming towards me

D: OK

GZ: He's got his hand in his waistband. Yeah he's a black male

D: OK How old would you say he looks?

GZ: He's (unclear) late teens...

D: Late teens, ok

GZ: Mm-hm. Something's wrong with him. Yup. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I dunno what his deal is.

D: OK, just lemme know if he does anything else (Crosstalk) we got someone on the way, just let me know if he does anything else (crosstalk) yeah, we got 'em on the way just let me know if he does anything else.

GZ (1:38): OK. (pause) Gah, these *advertiser censored**holes, they always get away. (unclear background noise) When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, and make a left. Actually, you go past the clubhouse.

D: OK, so it's on the left-hand side from the clubhouse?

GZ: No you go in (sigh) straight through the entrance, and then you make a left, uh yeah, don't turn and make a left, **** he's runnin'

D: He's running? Which way is he running?

GZ (2:10, sound of door opening/exiting car/seatbelt beeper going off?): Uh, down toward the uh other entrance to the neighborhood.

D: OK. Which entrance is that, that he's heading towards?

 

[jjenny]

Thanks, shana...The 2nd link states there were 2 shots:







....

I am pretty sure reporters are wrong regarding 2 shots. There was one very loud shot. Maybe in one of the calls somebody dropped something when they heard the shot and reporters are confused about there being 2 shots.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I am pretty sure reporters are wrong regarding 2 shots. There was one very loud shot. Maybe in one of the calls somebody dropped something when they heard the shot and reporters are confused about there being 2 shots.

I thought it was two shots at first too. It was the adrenaline of listening to the call for the first time. You know the shot is coming so when you hear the first pop, you think it's a gunshot, only to be horrified by the real shot and until you calm down and listen to them again, you can clearly tell the difference. There is only one shot.

I can not say for certain who was screaming and with none of the witnesses, during their 911 calls saying it was either one of them, I can only say that the screaming does end immediately after the gunshot. I could see Zimmerman being the one screaming if Tray was trying to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman... you know, in his own self-defense... real self-defense because the way I picture this happening is that when Zimmerman finally caught back up with Tray, he had the gun in his hand.

 

[jjenny]

Witnesses appear to be confused as to who was screaming, who was on top, and didn't see much. But GZ's own 911 call is pretty damning. The teen took off running after getting a look at GZ. The teen must have gotten scared after looking at GZ and tried to run away. So how is that self-defense? Can you really go after someone who is trying to run away and then claim self-defense? Apparently so.

 

[Yoda]

I thought it was two shots at first too. It was the adrenaline of listening to the call for the first time. You know the shot is coming so when you hear the first pop, you think it's a gunshot, only to be horrified by the real shot and until you calm down and listen to them again, you can clearly tell the difference. There is only one shot.

I can not say for certain who was screaming and with none of the witnesses, during their 911 calls saying it was either one of them, I can only say that the screaming does end immediately after the gunshot. I could see Zimmerman being the one screaming if Tray was trying to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman... you know, in his own self-defense... real self-defense because the way I picture this happening is that when Zimmerman finally caught back up with Tray, he had the gun in his hand.

I can see that too- either one screaming while fighting and wrestling over the gun. For either one it would be self defense. BUT Z should not have gotten out of the car! Did the dispatcher ever tell him to stop pursuit or anything like that after he left the car?

 

[LolaMoon08]

Witnesses appear to be confused as to who was screaming, who was on top, and didn't see much. But GZ's own 911 call is pretty damning. The teen took off running after getting a look at GZ. The teen must have gotten scared after looking at GZ and tried to run away. So how is that self-defense? Can you really go after someone who is trying to run away and then claim self-defense? Apparently so.

This is another reason I believe when Zimmerman finally caught up with Tray he had the gun in his hand. I would think that Tray would have just run again. The fact that he didn't run again tells me that he wasn't given a choice to run this time and instead tried to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman... and that is why the one caller says the men were "wrestling."

 

[LolaMoon08]

Witnesses appear to be confused as to who was screaming, who was on top, and didn't see much. But GZ's own 911 call is pretty damning. The teen took off running after getting a look at GZ. The teen must have gotten scared after looking at GZ and tried to run away. So how is that self-defense? Can you really go after someone who is trying to run away and then claim self-defense? Apparently so.

You can hear Zimmerman getting out of the car and walking! The police officer must have heard it to because he asked Zimmerman "Are you following him?" And Zimmerman confirms he is following Tray and the police tell Zimmerman, "We don't need you to be doing that, okay?" Zimmerman says "okay" but you can hear him still following Tray.

Something close to that.

ETA: Sorry, I quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote the other post. This was in response to Yoda's post.

 

[ynotdivein]

GZ 911 call transcript part two.

D: OK, which entrance is that, that he's heading towards?

GZ: The back entrance. (wind interference? begins to sound as if GZ is out of his vehicle IMO)

D: Are you following him?

GZ: Yep.

D (immediate on heels of "yep"): OK, we don't need you to do that.

GZ: OK

(wind)

D: Alright sir, what is your name?

GZ: George. (pause) (unclear--"he ran"?)

D: And George, what is your last name?

GZ: Zimmerman.

D: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?

GZ: (gives phone number)

D: Alright George, we do have 'em on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

GZ: Yeah.

D: Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?

GZ: If they... come in through the uh gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and uh... straight past the clubhouse and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they'll see my truck...

(crosstalk)

D: OK, what address are you parked in front of?

GZ: Um, I don't know... it's a cut-through so I don't know the address.

D: OK, do you live in the area?

GZ: Yeah, yeah.

D: What's your apartment number?

GZ: It's a home, it's (gives number of address) oh cr@p I don't wanna give it all out (unclear)

D: Ok do you wanna just meet with them right by the mailboxes then?

GZ: Yeah, that's fine.

D: Alright George I'll let them know they're meeting with you out there then.

GZ: Could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

D: OK. Yeah, that's no problem.

GZ: You need my number or you got it?

D: Yeah I got it (repeats number).

GZ: Yeah you got it.

D: OK no problem. I'll let 'em know to call you when they're in the area.

GZ: Thanks.

D: You're welcome.

[recording ends]

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/george-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

 

[Yoda]

:t:

Witnesses appear to be confused as to who was screaming, who was on top, and didn't see much. But GZ's own 911 call is pretty damning. The teen took off running after getting a look at GZ. The teen must have gotten scared after looking at GZ and tried to run away. So how is that self-defense? Can you really go after someone who is trying to run away and then claim self-defense? Apparently so.

I can see him following him to see where he went, not chasing him planning on having an altercation. It would make sense since he believed he was protecting his neighbors. *not justifying anything but a possibility of his thought process.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I want to know what would have been so hard for Zimmerman to have said, when he was close enough to Tray, from inside his car... "Hey! How's it going?" Maybe... just maybe, Tray would have simply said... "Walking back to my dad's house."

 

[Yoda]

Hmmmm. If the cries for help, screams, etc end up all being from GZ and witnesses saw them wrestling, that would support the self defense claim. Zimmerman could also have said his intention was to follow TM as to let LE know where the suspicious person was. I don't think from what has been released so far it could be proven that he was following him to shoot him. If so GZ could have shot him from farther away instead of during or after a struggle. IF that was all the evidence I can see why he was not arrested.
So the big question would be how can we ensure that a tragic thing like this doesn't happen again? How can you tell someone not to pursue a suspicious person?

 

[mrsu]

Wow! Those 911 tapes are absolutely gut wrenching. Especially where you can hear the wails. If there is any one who can confirm that it was Tray that was yelling for help, GZ should be immediately arrested for murder. If someone is wailing for help, then CLEARLY it is not a matter of self defense. If it was, Tray would have been too busy beating the crap out of GZ to yell. People say they saw GZ STANDING OVER Tray right after he shot him. That tells me right there that GZ was the one in control of the situation and I am 99% sure Tray was calling out for help. I'm sure his family recognizes his voice on the tapes.

I'm not sure who mentioned it above, but you can hear that GZ gets out of his car while on his 911 call. And if he's so concerned, why call the non emergency number?? I believe it's after he says that Tray starts running, you can hear some shuffling and some wind in the phone which is why the operator asks "Are you following him?" A bit later you can tell that he must return to his vehicle and is then driving trying to locate him, which is why he doesn't give an exact location of where he is and wants police to call him.

OMG...makes me FURIOUS! Serious injustice here!

 

[Yoda]

I really, really don't want to listen to the tapes. And I've read they were both on the ground, T was on top of Z at one point and Z was over T at one point. It is all very raw right now-information and emotions. Sooo I am going to slowly back out and wait to post possible scenarios until more concrete evidence is presented.

I just realized rereading this thread that my posts sound like I support LE not arresting GZ. I don't. I think he should have been arrested. My posts are how I am trying to figure out how LE came to their conclusion, and if LE was legally supported in not arresting GZ, i'd like to figure out where in the chain of events something can be changed to make sure that an innocent person is not killed again.