FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[Yoda]

If the kid looks suspicious then he calls 911 and lets them handle it. JMO

Exactly. I think I bypassed the GZ should have been arrested debate and went straight to trying to figure out if there is anything that could be changed so that this doesn't happen again. I agree, if you shoot someone self defense, accident, whatever, you should have to go through the same evidence collection procedures and interviews as if it was a homicide. Straight to the police station, do not go home, do not change clothes.
Are we sure that GZ didn't go in for questioning or that they didn't collect his clothes/blood samples/etc? did he go to the hospital for his injuries? If he had any.

Stlydn Just read your post that answered some of my questions. Thx

 

[Steely Dan]

Exactly. I think I bypassed the GZ should have been arrested debate and went straight to trying to figure out if there is anything that could be changed so that this doesn't happen again. I agree, if you shoot someone self defense, accident, whatever, you should have to go through the same evidence collection procedures and interviews as if it was a homicide. Straight to the police station, do not go home, do not change clothes.
Are we sure that GZ didn't go in for questioning or that they didn't collect his clothes/blood samples/etc? did he go to the hospital for his injuries? If he had any.

I haven't seen anything saying his clothes have been processed. Just questioned and released. We do know he was released before a background check was done on him.


ETA: I hope the angle of entry for the bullet can tell us something about where GZ was standing when the shot was fired.

 

[momshrink]

According to early reports, GZ was a criminal justice major in a local college. He wanted to be a police officer. I think he was trying to live his fantasy as a wanna be cop. I wonder what connection Sanford police dept has with his criminal justice program. Did he know any of the officers from seminars or trainings at his college? Did GZ get special treatment because he was training to be a cop?
I shudder to think of him as a real cop.

Thanks to those who reported on/transcribed the 911 tapes. I could not listen.

This happened too close for me in more ways than one. Scary. Any nut with a gun can say they feel threatened and claim self defense.

 

[HiHater]

I had refrained from commenting on this highly charged case until more evidence was available.

Now that the 911 calls have been released, I think the Police Chief and anyone else involved in the investigation should recuse themselves. The 911 tapes, specifically call #7 and the call with the 13 year old and his sister, directly contradict what Zimmerman is saying. There did not even have to be an altercation for Zimmerman to have grass stains and blood on him. It was raining out, he could have slipped and fell on his own while running. What would that do? Infuriate him even further.

It's a good thing the DOJ is stepping in on this one. The law is not hard to read or interpret; Zimmerman is without a doubt the attacker and is not afforded with the same protections (self defense) as a true victim. He cannot disregard his own safety and then expect the law to restore that safety after the fact. He gave up all concerns of victimization and imminent danger when he left the safety of his own vehicle. He stalked (followed) and harassed Trayvon when he had no right to do so. Trayvon was lawfully in that neighborhood, and unfortunately he encountered someone who was impersonating a police officer to a degree.

Zimmerman will be arrested. I am almost 100% sure of that. Benjamin Crump is a stellar attorney, and he represented the family of Martin Lee Anderson (7 million dollar civil judgment). It's too early to look at liability, but if no criminal charges are filed I predict that the Martin family will take that route. Really, the police are making this worse on Zimmerman. He will have to be in hiding forever, similar to Casey Anthony. Just arrest the man, and if he is innocent the evidence will speak for itself. There IS probable cause. The police have the murder weapon, the crime scene, the victim's body, witnesses, 911 calls, and to say that no probable cause exists is a d*** lie. There may not be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, but that's a different phase entirely.

All is JMO, IMO, MOO
I got kind of carried away...
Rest In Paradise Trayvon

 

[Steely Dan]

I had refrained from commenting on this highly charged case until more evidence was available.

Now that the 911 calls have been released, I think the Police Chief and anyone else involved in the investigation should recuse themselves. The 911 tapes, specifically call #7 and the call with the 13 year old and his sister, directly contradict what Zimmerman is saying. There did not even have to be an altercation for Zimmerman to have grass stains and blood on him. It was raining out, he could have slipped and fell on his own while running. What would that do? Infuriate him even further.

It's a good thing the DOJ is stepping in on this one. The law is not hard to read or interpret; Zimmerman is without a doubt the attacker and is not afforded with the same protections (self defense) as a true victim. He cannot disregard his own safety and then expect the law to restore that safety after the fact. He gave up all concerns of victimization and imminent danger when he left the safety of his own vehicle. He stalked (followed) and harassed Trayvon when he had no right to do so. Trayvon was lawfully in that neighborhood, and unfortunately he encountered someone who was impersonating a police officer to a degree.

Zimmerman will be arrested. I am almost 100% sure of that. Benjamin Crump is a stellar attorney, and he represented the family of Martin Lee Anderson (7 million dollar civil judgment). It's too early to look at liability, but if no criminal charges are filed I predict that the Martin family will take that route. Really, the police are making this worse on Zimmerman. He will have to be in hiding forever, similar to Casey Anthony. Just arrest the man, and if he is innocent the evidence will speak for itself. There IS probable cause. The police have the murder weapon, the crime scene, the victim's body, witnesses, 911 calls, and to say that no probable cause exists is a d*** lie. There may not be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, but that's a different phase entirely.

All is JMO, IMO, MOO
I got kind of carried away...
Rest In Paradise Trayvon

BBM

Your whole post is excellent, but the bolded part is especially so. This may help in defining the limits of that law.

 

[angelmom]

I know he should not have followed him, but I can see why he might have- to keep track of him for police, and afaik there is no law about following people. And if he approached TM, he should not have, and afaik there is no law about approaching people, I am assuming from witness statements in articles that there was a physical altercation before the shot. IF there was a fight then I can see the self defense claim.
This was horrible. TM was out walking back from a store like thousands of other teens do. He should not have been killed. But what can be changed? I am honestly asking because this should never happen again. I am struggling to find, besides GZ personal choices which were all legal until possibly the altercation, anything that could be changed.

Afaik. As far as I know.

Exactly. I think I bypassed the GZ should have been arrested debate and went straight to trying to figure out if there is anything that could be changed so that this doesn't happen again. I agree, if you shoot someone self defense, accident, whatever, you should have to go through the same evidence collection procedures and interviews as if it was a homicide. Straight to the police station, do not go home, do not change clothes.
Are we sure that GZ didn't go in for questioning or that they didn't collect his clothes/blood samples/etc? did he go to the hospital for his injuries? If he had any.

Stlydn Just read your post that answered some of my questions. Thx

Here's the thing. When you look at what needs to be changed, it is all on GZ and local law enforcement. You say GZ didn't do anything wrong (and I'll get to that) but what did Tray do wrong? He is the one who is dead.

Is it wrong to go for a walk or walk to a store at 7 pm? No.
Is it wrong for a teen to buy iced tea or skittles? No.
Is it wrong for a teen to wear a hoodie, especially if it is on the chilly side and possibly drizzling? No. (I would submit that it is practically mandatory.)
Is it wrong, if you see a car following you, to look inside to see if it's someone you know or if someone needs help? No.
Is it wrong to run if you sense danger? NO!

In fact, I have three children, one of whom is a son Tray's age, and I have been telling them since they were allowed outside without me that if someone approaches them in a car to get away. Don't talk to them (it might provoke them), don't offer to help, don't get within arm's reach. Just run back to me or to a neighbor, and yell at the top of your lungs for help until someone pays attention.

So I can't find fault with one thing that Tray has done. We don't even have anyone to claim or even suggest that he fought until GZ overcame him on foot and assaulted him. NOT ONE witness has said that Tray stopped running and came towards GZ or even said anything rude to him (also, not wrong or illegal when some creep is following you).


Well if Tray didn't do anything wrong, what did GZ do wrong?

GZ saw a "suspicious" person, assumed (incorrectly, AFAIK) that Tray was definitely on drugs, and up to something. Is this wrong? Yes. On several counts. Legally he is still okay, but from what we know the only thing Tray did that was suspicious was to be born black and wear a hoodie.

GZ called the police. Since he didn't call 911, I will assume he was asking for "backup" and recognized that this was no emergency. This is not wrong or illegal.

GZ was specifically told not to get out of the car or to follow Tray. While technically not illegal, I don't see how anyone would argue that this made sense. If he had witnessed an actual crime or was intervening to protect someone else or their property, sure. But he was following a kid walking down the street. Was this illegal? No. Was it the "but for" act that set this all into motion. Yes.

Once he came upon Tray, he obviously confronted him. Tray was trying to get away, and I don't see any scenario where he turns to fight UNLESS he were cornered, which still makes GZ the aggressor. Is this wrong? YES! Is it illegal? I believe it is.

At some point, Tray is laying FACE DOWN on the ground and GZ is standing over him with a gun. GZ could have held the gun on him until LE arrived. GZ was not wrestling with Tray and the gun accidentally went off. GZ murdered Tray in cold blood for absolutely no reason. Is this wrong? Yes. Is it illegal? Yes.

I can't even go through what LE did that was wrong because it was all wrong. I think the only thing they did right was actually show up at the scene. This is all on GZ, and there is nothing to change this outcome except to arrest GZ and make it very clear that this is not self-defense.

Right now GZ reminds me of my two stupid dogs who bark exactly the same at the kids who tp'ed our house and a leaf blowing across the yard. If you are that dumb, you shouldn't be allowed to carry a weapon...or really, go outside alone. The dogs sure aren't.



***PS...one thing no one has pointed out yet is that GZ was a neighborhood watch captain. In at least two neighborhoods where I have lived, they have been "trained" by local LE. And maybe that's the problem.

 

[HiHater]

Does anyone know how far away Zimmerman's car was from where Trayvon was shot? I think it's important to know just how far Zimmerman had chased him on foot. Or if Zimmerman literally jumped out of his car and ambused Trayvon.

Was Trayvon far enough away that he had slowed down, and then perhaps he was caught off guard by Zimmerman who was trying to "detain" him? Were there any witnesses who saw that part (the chase)?

I think the length of the chase could show a little bit about Zimmerman's mindset. Was he upset to be running in the ran? I don't know about pseudo-cops, but real cops get a bit upset when they have to chase ya!

JMO/IMO/MOO

 

[Talina]

I've just spent a couple of hours reading all the posts in this thread. Thank you all for the very helpful, informative posts.

I am wondering if the reason Tray ran is because he saw the gun. I know pure speculation on my part but on the 911 call, Zimmerman says something like he is approaching, checking me out, etc, then he says he is running.

I'm wondering if Zimmerman had his gun visible at that time and that could be why TM was running and yelling for help once Zimmerman started chasing him.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Zimmerman made sure his gun was out and visible when Tray started approaching the vehicle.

Something spooked Tray enough to make him run after he approached the vehicle.

IMO

 

[Yoda]

Here's the thing. When you look at what needs to be changed, it is all on GZ and local law enforcement. You say GZ didn't do anything wrong (and I'll get to that) but what did Tray do wrong? He is the one who is dead.

Is it wrong to go for a walk or walk to a store at 7 pm? No.
Is it wrong for a teen to buy iced tea or skittles? No.
Is it wrong for a teen to wear a hoodie, especially if it is on the chilly side and possibly drizzling? No. (I would submit that it is practically mandatory.)
Is it wrong, if you see a car following you, to look inside to see if it's someone you know or if someone needs help? No.
Is it wrong to run if you sense danger? NO!

In fact, I have three children, one of whom is a son Tray's age, and I have been telling them since they were allowed outside without me that if someone approaches them in a car to get away. Don't talk to them (it might provoke them), don't offer to help, don't get within arm's reach. Just run back to me or to a neighbor, and yell at the top of your lungs for help until someone pays attention.

So I can't find fault with one thing that Tray has done. We don't even have anyone to claim or even suggest that he fought until GZ overcame him on foot and assaulted him. NOT ONE witness has said that Tray stopped running and came towards GZ or even said anything rude to him (also, not wrong or illegal when some creep is following you).


Well if Tray didn't do anything wrong, what did GZ do wrong?

GZ saw a "suspicious" person, assumed (incorrectly, AFAIK) that Tray was definitely on drugs, and up to something. Is this wrong? Yes. On several counts. Legally he is still okay, but from what we know the only thing Tray did that was suspicious was to be born black and wear a hoodie.

GZ called the police. Since he didn't call 911, I will assume he was asking for "backup" and recognized that this was no emergency. This is not wrong or illegal.

GZ was specifically told not to get out of the car or to follow Tray. While technically not illegal, I don't see how anyone would argue that this made sense. If he had witnessed an actual crime or was intervening to protect someone else or their property, sure. But he was following a kid walking down the street. Was this illegal? No. Was it the "but for" act that set this all into motion. Yes.

Once he came upon Tray, he obviously confronted him. Tray was trying to get away, and I don't see any scenario where he turns to fight UNLESS he were cornered, which still makes GZ the aggressor. Is this wrong? YES! Is it illegal? I believe it is.

No witnesses statements released yet tell how they ended up together. I can see a few different scenarios.

At some point, Tray is laying FACE DOWN on the ground and GZ is standing over him with a gun. GZ could have held the gun on him until LE arrived. GZ was not wrestling with Tray and the gun accidentally went off. GZ murdered Tray in cold blood for absolutely no reason. Is this wrong? Yes. Is it illegal? Yes.

No witness statements released say they saw when/how the trigger was pulled. "Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top."



I can't even go through what LE did that was wrong because it was all wrong. I think the only thing they did right was actually show up at the scene. This is all on GZ, and there is nothing to change this outcome except to arrest GZ and make it very clear that this is not self-defense.

Right now GZ reminds me of my two stupid dogs who bark exactly the same at the kids who tp'ed our house and a leaf blowing across the yard. If you are that dumb, you shouldn't be allowed to carry a weapon...or really, go outside alone. The dogs sure aren't.



***PS...one thing no one has pointed out yet is that GZ was a neighborhood watch captain. In at least two neighborhoods where I have lived, they have been "trained" by local LE. And maybe that's the problem

.

I am analyzing witness statements and information released trying to put together scenarios of what happened. I don't think the bold is working from my iPad, but I commented on two sections above.
:sigh: If this entire post was in response to mine please read my previous posts. I agree with almost everything you stated.

 

[Velouria]

I believe Tray may have stopped and looked at Zimmerman, as Zimmerman came up on him. Maybe taking a few steps in his direction to see who the heck was following him, but he obviously wasn't confronting Zimmerman. Like you said, the poor kid ran away. You are 100% correct that none of these calls back up Zimmerman's claims of self defense.

It's time for an arrest and let a jury decide. Maybe Zimmerman will get lucky and they'll head to Pinellas County for a jury?

THIS. So much.

I'm so angry this morning I can hardly get my coffee down. I don't know which 911 tapes the SPD listened to, but I heard nothing that supported GZ's claims of self defense.

Easy to see now why they took their sweet time in releasing the tapes, isn't it?

IMO, it's time to clean house in Sanford. :maddening:

 

[Rob774]

Just listened to the tapes... wow!!! Like i said first day.. first degree murder!!! What makes GZ think he was going to get away from this??? Cries for help? If i'm strapped, i'm not wasting my energy crying for help, i'm shooting. This was the kid pleading for assistance here. GZ orchestrated this entire event, arrest this monster right now.

And also, you better believe some heads will roll at the PD too over their handling of this case.

 

[angelmom]

Does anyone know how far away Zimmerman's car was from where Trayvon was shot? I think it's important to know just how far Zimmerman had chased him on foot. Or if Zimmerman literally jumped out of his car and ambused Trayvon.

Was Trayvon far enough away that he had slowed down, and then perhaps he was caught off guard by Zimmerman who was trying to "detain" him? Were there any witnesses who saw that part (the chase)?

I think the length of the chase could show a little bit about Zimmerman's mindset. Was he upset to be running in the ran? I don't know about pseudo-cops, but real cops get a bit upset when they have to chase ya!

JMO/IMO/MOO

But why did he HAVE to chase Tray? Did Tray have something that GZ needed to get back/away from him (stolen items, drugs, a weapon)? No.

Did Tray have someone hostage? NO.

Did Tray do something wrong and GZ needed to detain him until police arrived. NO!

GZ is the only one who did anything wrong here. Well, except the police.

.

I am analyzing witness statements and information released trying to put together scenarios of what happened. I don't think the bold is working from my iPad, but I commented on two sections above.
:sigh: If this entire post was in response to mine please read my previous posts. I agree with almost everything you stated.

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound like I was arguing with you. I was trying to think through the process with you. Partly out of interest in justice but also a LOT because I have teenaged sons and I wonder how to teach them to avoid a scenario like this one. The thing is, even if I could go back in time and warn Tray, I don't know what to tell him that he did wrong. He did nothing wrong, and the only thing that would have saved him is to never be anywhere near GZ that night.

Normally I am a "benefit of the doubt" kind of girl, especially when LE is involved. But this case seems so egregious and so obvious that I do not understand why GZ wasn't immediately arrested for murder.

 

[HiHater]

I saw part of the State statute posted, but I didn't see this part, which IMO is the most important.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Zimmerman had many options, but he abandoned his means of escape (vehicle) after being told not to do so. He could have ran away from Trayvon. If they were struggling, as soon as Zimmerman broke free he should have high-tailed it out of there. I don't see how this is up for interpretation. The operative word in subsection (a) is AND; this requirement was not satisfied by Zimmerman. So his whole claim is negated, IMO.

Also, in this case, Zimmerman is GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, so the burden of proof shifts to the defendant. That doesn't mean he can't be arrested.

This case has really upset me. It's really starting to look like a cover up, but I cannot for the life of me understand why George Zimmerman is not on the other side of that blue wall...

 

[HiHater]

“The media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin,” Robert Zimmerman wrote. “When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...-martin-case.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy


I think it’s safe to call Robert Zimmerman a liar, since the 911 tapes clearly show that his son both confronted and followed Trayvon. Why would he issue a statement like that, knowing that what he said would be contrary to evidence? I have a real problem with people "imagining" murderers as victims.

 

[Belinda]

This whole situation is just unbelievable. The actions of GZ and the Sanford PD are incredible. I am at a complete loss to explain the behavior of the PD. Does GZ have a relative on the force? Something is very, very hinky here.

 

[Velouria]

According to early reports, GZ was a criminal justice major in a local college. He wanted to be a police officer. I think he was trying to live his fantasy as a wanna be cop. I wonder what connection Sanford police dept has with his criminal justice program. Did he know any of the officers from seminars or trainings at his college? Did GZ get special treatment because he was training to be a cop?
I shudder to think of him as a real cop.

Thanks to those who reported on/transcribed the 911 tapes. I could not listen.

This happened too close for me in more ways than one. Scary. Any nut with a gun can say they feel threatened and claim self defense.

BBM

I think you may really be onto something here, momshrink...

Wonder if GZ's instructors have put in a few good words him over at the SPD?

 

[belle3]

According to early reports, GZ was a criminal justice major in a local college. He wanted to be a police officer. I think he was trying to live his fantasy as a wanna be cop. I wonder what connection Sanford police dept has with his criminal justice program. Did he know any of the officers from seminars or trainings at his college? Did GZ get special treatment because he was training to be a cop?
I shudder to think of him as a real cop.

Thanks to those who reported on/transcribed the 911 tapes. I could not listen.

This happened too close for me in more ways than one. Scary. Any nut with a gun can say they feel threatened and claim self defense.

http://www.americantowns.com/fl/san...rector-of-the-center-for-public-safety-229127

Seminole State College of Florida Names Bill Lee Director of the Center for Public Safety

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/index.html
Bill Lee
Chief of Police

Isnt that where GZ was getting his criminal justice degree?

 

[daisy7]

Officials released the calls after meeting with U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, D-Jacksonville, and local officials. Brown also penned a two-page letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder asking that his department investigate the shooting.

“Given the history of racial tension in the Sanford community, I believe it would be wise for the Department of Justice to become involved and I request an emergency meeting with you or a senior DOJ official on Tuesday, March 20,” wrote Brown. Her letter was accompanied by one from Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett, who said he wished to attend the meeting.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/16/2697604_p2/trayvon-martins-parents-criss.html#storylink=cpy

 

[HiHater]

http://www.americantowns.com/fl/san...rector-of-the-center-for-public-safety-229127

Seminole State College of Florida Names Bill Lee Director of the Center for Public Safety

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/index.html
Bill Lee
Chief of Police

Isnt that where GZ was getting his criminal justice degree?

I'm impressed. Great sleuthing!

 

[belle3]

I'm impressed. Great sleuthing!

Thank you. I believe there is something very wrong and it begins with the connections and the reasons they had for keeping the 911 tapes. I believe that if this had not gone national they wouldve swept this under the table like the other incident in sanford that was mentioned upthread, by another amazing sleuther on this board.