FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[gracielee]

None of the witnesses described him as a little boy in 911 calls. The woman who called him a "little boy" did so in her interviews some time after the fact. Presumably at that time she found out he was 17 and decided that makes him a "little boy."

She was the last interview I listened to last night. Thanks for the explanation. I thought I heard others referring to a 'child' calling for help. I find it confusing when people don't use proper terms for the ages of people. I remember in that murder in Tortola, can't recall the woman's name right now who was murdered, but the defendants lawyers kept referring to them as *boys*. IIRC, all but one was in their mid to late thirties at the time.I'd hardly call 'em *boys*. By that age my husband and I had a child ready for middle school.

JMO, but I don't think Trayvon was a 'little boy'. I also don't think he should have been shot either. But I still would like to know what he was suspended from school for? :moo:

 

[gracielee]

There are several issues that are very concerning.
1.Sanford police department has a very bad track record in the community and has covered for those they considered their own.
2. Was GZ authorized by the HOA to carry a gun as neighborhood watch captain? This is important for civil suits.
3. How will this law of self defense be applied and will it stand the court test in this case?7
4. Was evidence preserved or collected? Did LE test GZ for drugs/alcohol?
5. What measures were this boys dad and gf taking to find him?

His suspension has nothing to do with this. Even if it was for fighting at school, this is a minor who was pursued by an armed adult who had no authority to direct or detain him.

MOO

Regardless, I'd still like to know why he was suspended from school.

If GZ has a concealed carry permit, isn't he permitted to carry regardless, except for places, depending upon ones state of residence, where it's illegal to carry?

I agree with your other points, LE's reputation for covering up deeds, and was evidence collected.

I don't know about measures to locate the son by the father, but one would *think* had he stepped outside, he'd notice all the police activity, wouldn't he? IIRC, some articles stated TM was something like a hundred feet from the residence where he was staying??? Does anyone know exactly where he was shot compared to where his destination was? Just curious, since he's not from that area, I wouldn't think his dad would assume he'd met up with some friends and went somewhere...

 

[JeannaT]

I saw part of the State statute posted, but I didn't see this part, which IMO is the most important.



Zimmerman had many options, but he abandoned his means of escape (vehicle) after being told not to do so. He could have ran away from Trayvon. If they were struggling, as soon as Zimmerman broke free he should have high-tailed it out of there. I don't see how this is up for interpretation. The operative word in subsection (a) is AND; this requirement was not satisfied by Zimmerman. So his whole claim is negated, IMO.

Also, in this case, Zimmerman is GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, so the burden of proof shifts to the defendant. That doesn't mean he can't be arrested.

This case has really upset me. It's really starting to look like a cover up, but I cannot for the life of me understand why George Zimmerman is not on the other side of that blue wall...

I can't imagine where that idea came from, but no. No one in the US is "guilty until proven innocent" of a crime. As LE Lee continues to say, LE has to have evidence that shows that he's lying that it was self-defense. And he believes they have no proof of that. And we don't know any of the evidence about the severity of the injuries to his head that GZ suffered.

 

[jjenny]

I can't imagine where that idea came from, but no. No one in the US is "guilty until proven innocent" of a crime. As LE Lee continues to say, LE has to have evidence that shows that he's lying that it was self-defense. And he believes they have no proof of that. And we don't know any of the evidence about the severity of the injuries to his head that GZ suffered.

Self-defense is an affirmative defense. That is, if he is put on trial, he would have to prove he acted in self-defense. So the burden of proof is on him, despite police claiming otherwise.

 

[JeannaT]

Self-defense is an affirmative defense. That is, if he is put on trial, he would have to prove he acted in self-defense. So the burden of proof is on him, despite police claiming otherwise.

And according to LE, they don't have the evidence to prove he's lying. No prosecutor wants to take a case they can't win, and according to them (and we don't know how they came up with this) they don't have anything to dispute GZ's claim.

 

[momshrink]

I know GZ can legally carry the gun with a permit. My question is what did the HOA authorize him to do as neighborhood watch captain? Did they authorize him to carry as part of that position? This will make a difference with civil law suits. And there will be civil law suits.
The fact that GZ got out of his vehicle against LE advice and pursued Trayvon makes Trayvon the victim. I think a victim is entitled to defend himself if necessary. We should not blame the victim.
As a mom, I teach my son to run away, use whatever means necessary to get away if an unknown adult approaches him. GZ could have intended to assault Trayvon. Trayvon had no way of knowing GZ's intentions.
I am very concerned, though, if Trayvon was not reported missing or searched for. Did his dad leave him with the gf?

All JMO

 

[jjenny]

And according to LE, they don't have the evidence to prove he's lying. No prosecutor wants to take a case they can't win, and according to them (and we don't know how they came up with this) they don't have anything to dispute GZ's claim.

I don't believe this is the case a prosecutor can not win. There is a 911 call from GZ himself stating teenager was running away. GZ is the one who followed the teenager. In my view that makes GZ an aggressor. Looking at it that way, his self-defense claims are not all that convincing.

 

[annalia]

I'm really confused as to what him being suspended from school has anything to do with him being shot and killed?

It's pretty clear he wasn't the one picking a fight, that he didn't initate a fight.

The family's reaction afterwards doesn't have any bearing on him being murdered so I'm confused about the importance of that too.

JMHO

 

[jjenny]

I'm really confused as to what him being suspended from school has anything to do with him being shot and killed?

It's pretty clear he wasn't the one picking a fight, that he didn't initate a fight.

The family's reaction afterwards doesn't have any bearing on him being murdered so I'm confused about the importance of that too.

JMHO

I agree. From what I understand the body was taken to the morgue as that of an unknown person (so the family was not informed he was killed). He is also 17 so its not like he had to be supervised by his family at all times.

 

[Talina]

And according to LE, they don't have the evidence to prove he's lying. No prosecutor wants to take a case they can't win, and according to them (and we don't know how they came up with this) they don't have anything to dispute GZ's claim.

Have we heard from prosecutors yet? I thought, so far, that we've only heard from LE and that they have now turned over their files to SA office for a decision to be made by them for further action if they see fit that further investigation or charges are warranted.

I've also seen calls for outside investigation authorities to get involved and, honestly, I think that would be a very good idea.

IMO

 

[annalia]

I think I keep not making myself clear.

If he was suspended for picking fights unnecessarily, that would shed light on how he might have behaved the night of his death.

There is SO much here that isn't clear - the demeanors of both GZ and Trayvon, who threw the first punch (and that matters 100% to me). Who punched first.

Again, we don't know of any injuries to Tray before he was shot, but we do know that GZ sustained head injuries.

Given what we know, him throwing the first punch doesn't matter to me at all. A kid is being followed by a stranger who comes up upon him, he has no idea who this adult is and it's sounds like Tray was the one trying to defend himself not the other way around.

JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

Have we heard from prosecutors yet? I thought, so far, that we've only heard from LE and that they have now turned over their files to SA office for a decision to be made by them for further action if they see fit that further investigation or charges are warranted.

I've also seen calls for outside investigation authorities to get involved and, honestly, I think that would be a very good idea.

IMO

In one of the articles posted very recently, there was a quote from LE that they had been working with the prosecutor closely as evidence was gathered and were told by the prosecutor that there wasn't sufficient evidence to win in court.

 

[LolaMoon08]

In one of the articles posted very recently, there was a quote from LE that they had been working with the prosecutor closely as evidence was gathered and were told by the prosecutor that there wasn't sufficient evidence to win in court.

I don't trust anyone in that town! I think the best thing is for the DOJ to take over the case. If they investigate and find there isn't enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, then we will have to accept it. I do not think this case should be in the hands of Sanford police, prosecutors, anything! I also think there needs to be a serious overhall in that town!

 

[Yoda]

I'm really confused as to what him being suspended from school has anything to do with him being shot and killed?

It's pretty clear he wasn't the one picking a fight, that he didn't initate a fight.

The family's reaction afterwards doesn't have any bearing on him being murdered so I'm confused about the importance of that too.

JMHO

I don't think it is clear he did not initiate a fight. Take a step back for a second. 911 call says GZ was in car TM walked back towards the car. TM takes off running. GZ follows him. How do we know GZ wasn't following him to keep an eye on where he was going, in his mind, to protect the neighborhood? Yes the dispatcher told him he didn't need to be doing that, but legally there are no laws that say he can not follow another person. How do we know that TM didn't hide somewhere then step out to confront GZ? How did GZ a 28 year old man catch up so fast to a 17 year old teen athlete? How do we know TM didn't stop and wait for him? We don't yet. From released witness statements at one point TM was on top of GZ.
I think what TM was suspended for could offer insite to how TM respond to being chased, authority, etc. Then again it might not.
This was a horrible tragedy but I still have a hundred questions on the series of events. It could just boil down to a series of dumb decisions in GZ's part, it could be he had ideas of being the hero and capturing the assumed bad guy, it could be that TM attacked GZ when GZ followed him and tried to grab his gun. I don't know. I do know that TM should not have been shot.
I have not listened to the tapes but i asked earlier if anyone could distinguish two voices, that was to try to determine who was yelling. From articles the parents and some of the witnesses say TM, from articles GZ says it was him, from the 911 a witness says it was a man??? That could be TM or GZ. I hope LE makes a statement on who they thought was yelling for help on the 911 calls and how they determined that.

 

[Rob774]

I don't care if Trayvon was suspended for beating up 10 kids at once.... all that is irrelevant once he tries to flee the area... and still gets killed, he becomes the victim, an unarmed victim. He didn't start the fight, he tried to avoid the confrontation, and we are here discussing the background of the victim???

I just don't get it.

 

[annalia]

I don't care if Trayvon was suspended for beating up 10 kids at once.... all that is irrelevant once he tries to flee the area... and still gets killed, he becomes the victim, an unarmed victim. He didn't start the fight, he tried to avoid the confrontation, and we are here discussing the background of the victim???

I just don't get it.

I agree with you.

There was only one aggressor, that's the one who decided to get out of his car and go after Trayvon, after being told not to.

 

[gracielee]

I agree. From what I understand the body was taken to the morgue as that of an unknown person (so the family was not informed he was killed). He is also 17 so its not like he had to be supervised by his family at all times.

But somewhere I read that the reason his father brought him to this place had to do with his suspension from school. I wish I could remember the words, but the idea I got from those words, as a parent myself, was to discuss/work on/supervise, whatever, perhaps his attitude or behavior resulting in the suspension. I was reading lots of different articles, different sources, last night, in an effort to understand this whole event.

 

[Yoda]

I don't care if Trayvon was suspended for beating up 10 kids at once.... all that is irrelevant once he tries to flee the area... and still gets killed, he becomes the victim, an unarmed victim. He didn't start the fight, he tried to avoid the confrontation, and we are here discussing the background of the victim???

I just don't get it.

I don't get it either. If it can be assumed that GZ was a vigilante and TM was fleeing in fear. Then why can't it be assumed that GZ was only thinking of keeping an eye on him until police came and TM thought I am going to have some fun with this guy, approached Gz's car and then took off running to see what he would do. All the assumptions give us scenarios but evidence and witnesses will hopefully give us the truth. *although since LE might not have collected clothing/evidence from GZ then the truth will rely heavily on witnesses and GZ.

 

[gracielee]

I don't think it is clear he did not initiate a fight. Take a step back for a second. 911 call says GZ was in car TM walked back towards the car. TM takes off running. GZ follows him. How do we know GZ wasn't following him to keep an eye on where he was going, in his mind, to protect the neighborhood? Yes the dispatcher told him he didn't need to be doing that, but legally there are no laws that say he can not follow another person. How do we know that TM didn't hide somewhere then step out to confront GZ? How did GZ a 28 year old man catch up so fast to a 17 year old teen athlete? How do we know TM didn't stop and wait for him? We don't yet. From released witness statements at one point TM was on top of GZ.
I think what TM was suspended for could offer insite to how TM respond to being chased, authority, etc. Then again it might not.
This was a horrible tragedy but I still have a hundred questions on the series of events. It could just boil down to a series of dumb decisions in GZ's part, it could be he had ideas of being the hero and capturing the assumed bad guy, it could be that TM attacked GZ when GZ followed him and tried to grab his gun. I don't know. I do know that TM should not have been shot.
I have not listened to the tapes but i asked earlier if anyone could distinguish two voices, that was to try to determine who was yelling. From articles the parents and some of the witnesses say TM, from articles GZ says it was him, from the 911 a witness says it was a man??? That could be TM or GZ. I hope LE makes a statement on who they thought was yelling for help on the 911 calls and how they determined that.

Again, from reading articles this community had problems with burglaries and possibly vandalism. We live way out in the country, on a dead end road, approx. a dozen houses along our road. We had a problem some months ago with someone breaking into cars, and in one case vandalism to someone's vehicle. Word gets around on our road as to problems such as this, and everyone was on high alert afterwards. Watching outside, checking when our dogs barked late at night, keeping outside lights on all night long, etc. If anyone on our road had seen suspicous looking kid/s, I'm certain they would have followed them, and most likely been armed when doing so. Because we live so far out in the country, it could take the sheriff's office 20 or 30 minutes to get here, especially at night, and if the deputies were all the way at the other end of the county when we called them.

That's why I don't find it as unusual as others, that GZ would have followed TM. I got the impression the prior burglaries had not been solved yet.

 

[momshrink]

I think even if we witnessed someone breaking into a neighbor's house, most if us would call 911, not take the law into our own hands. I think GZ preferred to take the law into his own hands rather than wait for LE. Vigilante on the loose.
JMO