FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[momshrink]

I don't trust anyone in that town! I think the best thing is for the DOJ to take over the case. If they investigate and find there isn't enough evidence to charge Zimmerman, then we will have to accept it. I do not think this case should be in the hands of Sanford police, prosecutors, anything! I also think there needs to be a serious overhall in that town!

Thanks was not enough. This is so true. I do not live in Sanford, but am close enough. I think we will find lack of evidence collected at the scene, sloppy evidence collection.
JMO

 

[Reader]

To me, it matters why he was suspended. It would shed light on what to expect from his behavior - aggression, drug use, etc? It's a mystery that they won't say why he was suspended if it is something that is truly unrelated to the big picture of this incident.

That question was answered in one of the many articles I read in the last couple of days...but many of them have been updated and can't locate it right now.

However, Trayvon's mother stated the suspension was nothing to do with fighting or violence, but was due to a school policy matter.

So there is no proof that he would be expected to be aggressive or involved with drugs, etc.

 

[Steely Dan]

I wonder about this, too.


One of the articles linked in this thread said he was the "self-appointed" neighborhood watch captain. So I wonder if he even got any training.

I can understand, if there's a spate of crime in your neighborhood, the desire to catch who's responsible and the feeling of frustration that the perp hasn't been caught. I can also understand seeing someone you don't know walking around in your neighborhood in the dark and wondering if maybe they're up to something - if you saw an old lady walking around vs. a lone teenager, who would you be more suspicious of? So I could understand, in those circumstances, calling the police to check it out.

What I don't understand is following him, getting out of the car and chasing him while packing heat. Also, I'm curious how someone like GZ managed to catch up to someone like Tray, who was 10 years younger, a lot thinner and probably faster. He must have been really determined to catch him. If only he had just waited for the police. It doesn't sound like Tray was doing anything wrong. I know I'd be trying to run if someone was following me in a car and/or on foot.

What did GZ expect to accomplish, anyway? Could the police have detained Tray and run his fingerprints to see if he was the burglar - just on GZ's say so? What did GZ want to happen?

BBM

I think it's possible that Tray decided to hide because when GZ exited the truck he may have had the gun in his hand. GZ found him, and/or Tray attacked him in order to defend himself from what he thought was a gun toting mad man. JMO

 

[Reader]

It sounds like the family never even made an attempt to find him all night - how could they have missed the cop cars and crime scene tape? I don't know where this information is coming from that they didn't know until 8 a.m. the next day, so I don't know what other information is provided about that - but any ID Tray would have on him would certainly not be a local address, no one there would know who he was, and it appears the family didn't make an attempt to retrace his steps after he'd been missing awhile.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, trying to point out both sides, and I find it very odd that it appears no one looked for this boy. By 9 o'clock, I'd be driving the neighborhood or calling his cell until I found him. It doesn't appear the family thought anything unusual of him being gone.

This is not true...the father stated when Trayvon didn't come home he first called the police to see if he had been arrested, as I mentioned in a previous post. Why would he do that first? Shows what he knew to expect in this town from the police.

Then when he found there was no arrest, he called the 'missing' dept. and was asked for a description of the boy. He said that after 12 hours a detective called/then visited and told him a boy with that description had been shot and killed and it might be his son.

Even if the father had heard what was going on with GZ, there is no reason at that point for him to think it concerned his son but just somebody being arrested in the area. Trayvon had no ID and was a John Doe at the morgue so police did not know who to contact.

 

[Reader]

Trayvon Martin would be alive if Neighborhood Watch rules followed

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...olice-block-captains-zimmerman?obref=obinsite

If George Zimmerman didn't break every rule in the book when it comes to Neighborhood Watch programs, he came close.
-----

But this much isn't in dispute: Zimmerman was armed. He was alone. And while waiting for police, he somehow got into a fight with the person he thought suspicious.

All three of those actions are strongly discouraged by the National Sheriffs' Association, which oversees about 20,000 Neighborhood Watch programs.

There are practical reasons for those rules.

And this absolutely heart-wrenching one: A family of a teenager is now coping with a death that probably could have been avoided.

"There is no reason in the world to carry a gun for Neighborhood Watch," said Chris Tutko, a retired police chief who now directs Neighborhood Watch for the sheriffs' association. "It gets people more into trouble than out of it."

A manual published by the association for its "USAonWatch" program makes that very clear.

"It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles," the manual states. "Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

More at link.....

GZ broke all the rules...I think he thought if he caught the person who had been breaking into homes in the area, it would score points with LE and help him get a job with them. He was a police wanna be, not a real 'watcher' but self-appointed. Why is that even legal?

 

[gracielee]

That question was answered in one of the many articles I read in the last couple of days...but many of them have been updated and can't locate it right now.

However, Trayvon's mother stated the suspension was nothing to do with fighting or violence, but was due to a school policy matter.

So there is no proof that he would be expected to be aggressive or involved with drugs, etc.

If that's the case then why not just *say* what he was suspended for?

 

[annalia]

If that's the case then why not just *say* what he was suspended for?

Because it has zero to do with him being shot and killed?

 

[Yoda]

This link is to the Orlando paper. It has a map showing 7/11, GZ's home, home TM was returning too.
It also has an interesting brief timeline that says GZ was held at gunpoint when police arrived and was handcuffed. I hadn't read that anywhere else.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...n-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic

 

[Yoda]

This link is to the Orlando paper. It has a map showing 7/11, GZ's home, home TM was returning too.
It also has an interesting brief timeline that says GZ was held at gunpoint when police arrived and was handcuffed. I hadn't read that anywhere else.

FYI if you google map Oregon ave Sanford fl it helps to get a better perspective of distance.
*off topic if you go one street south/under GZ's you will see a helicopter above a house. It is also in the map view two other times in the neighborhood.

 

[gracielee]

This link is to the Orlando paper. It has a map showing 7/11, GZ's home, home TM was returning too.
It also has an interesting brief timeline that says GZ was held at gunpoint when police arrived and was handcuffed. I hadn't read that anywhere else.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...n-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic

That looks like a long walk to the convenience store, doesn't it? I didn't realize it was that far away.

 

[momshrink]

I have wondered if Trayvon got lost going back to his dad's gf's house. I don't know how familiar he was with the neighborhood.

 

[Yoda]

That looks like a long walk to the convenience store, doesn't it? I didn't realize it was that far away.

That was what I was thinking. I thought it was a quick half time run to get snacks. And in the rain If he was going to get snacks for his brother then why not wonder where he was sooner? And from the map I would think they would have heard the sirens and commotion and gone out to see what was going on. If my kid was out and I heard sirens I would be out checking to make sure it wasn't him.

 

[gracielee]

That was what I was thinking. I thought it was a quick half time run to get snacks. And in the rain If he was going to get snacks for his brother then why not wonder where he was sooner? And from the map I would think they would have heard the sirens and commotion and gone out to see what was going on. If my kid was out and I heard sirens I would be out checking to make sure it wasn't him.

That's what I thought. When my kids were teens, every time I heard a siren, even off in the distance, my heart would miss a beat.

Sometime last winter, I heard one of our neighbors had gone outside with his shot-gun, overnight, when his dog started barking more *business like* for lack of a better term. Not the typical dog barking at wildlife type bark. Anyway, I heard he came upon a couple teenage boys, one who lived in the next house up from him. Kid had apparently climbed out the window and snuck outside to meet a friend. The story I heard was neighbor guy marched them both to the one kids house and woke up his parents.

 

[winelover]

I'm crying. This poor child. The terror he must have felt. Skittles and Ice tea. I can understand why he looked confused. He's staying with his dad and all the houses must have looked the same. I have kids the same age. They wear hoods and it was raining. I weep. Rest in peace dear child.

 

[Yoda]

This article says he was found behind 1231 Twin trees lane.


http://mysanfordherald.com/view/ful...-‘altercation’?instance=news_page

 

[gracielee]

This article says he was found behind 1231 Twin trees lane.


http://mysanfordherald.com/view/ful...-death-after-‘altercation’?instance=news_page

I'm all turned around in there, can't tell which direction TM could have been coming from nor heading towards. If he stuck to roads, that was quite a hike to the convenience store. Wonder if the home he was staying at was also on Twin Trees?

 

[SoBeCzar]

The police have this backwards. They say there is nothing to prove it wasn't self defence. Actually there is nothing which even indicates self defence.

 

[angelmom]

But somewhere I read that the reason his father brought him to this place had to do with his suspension from school. I wish I could remember the words, but the idea I got from those words, as a parent myself, was to discuss/work on/supervise, whatever, perhaps his attitude or behavior resulting in the suspension. I was reading lots of different articles, different sources, last night, in an effort to understand this whole event.

Who knows. At the school my kids go to, copying hw from someone is cheating and they could be expelled or suspended. Copying hw certainly wouldn't indicate a propensity to confront an armed gunman, but it could certainly get you a few days off school to talk about your attitude towards cheating.

I don't get it either. If it can be assumed that GZ was a vigilante and TM was fleeing in fear. Then why can't it be assumed that GZ was only thinking of keeping an eye on him until police came and TM thought I am going to have some fun with this guy, approached Gz's car and then took off running to see what he would do. All the assumptions give us scenarios but evidence and witnesses will hopefully give us the truth. *although since LE might not have collected clothing/evidence from GZ then the truth will rely heavily on witnesses and GZ.

Well, TM is dead so the burden is on GZ to prove that he was acting in self-defense.

I can't imagine where that idea came from, but no. No one in the US is "guilty until proven innocent" of a crime. As LE Lee continues to say, LE has to have evidence that shows that he's lying that it was self-defense. And he believes they have no proof of that. And we don't know any of the evidence about the severity of the injuries to his head that GZ suffered.

He is not officially guilty but, just like in the Hemy Neuman trial that just ended, he is not claiming that he didn't shoot Tray. He is claiming self-defense, just like Hemy claimed insanity. That is an affirmative defense and must be proven by the defendant. Hemy sure sat in jail while he tried to prove it, and so should GZ.

And according to LE, they don't have the evidence to prove he's lying. No prosecutor wants to take a case they can't win, and according to them (and we don't know how they came up with this) they don't have anything to dispute GZ's claim.

They don't have to prove GZ's claim since he is admitting that he shot Tray. GZ has to prove it was self-defense.

I saw part of the State statute posted, but I didn't see this part, which IMO is the most important.



Zimmerman had many options, but he abandoned his means of escape (vehicle) after being told not to do so. He could have ran away from Trayvon. If they were struggling, as soon as Zimmerman broke free he should have high-tailed it out of there. I don't see how this is up for interpretation. The operative word in subsection (a) is AND; this requirement was not satisfied by Zimmerman. So his whole claim is negated, IMO.

Also, in this case, Zimmerman is GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, so the burden of proof shifts to the defendant. That doesn't mean he can't be arrested.

This case has really upset me. It's really starting to look like a cover up, but I cannot for the life of me understand why George Zimmerman is not on the other side of that blue wall...

Thank you! The thanks button wasn't enough for this great post!

 

[JeannaT]

The police have this backwards. They say there is nothing to prove it wasn't self defence. Actually there is nothing which even indicates self defence.

The way the injuries were being described that GZ had, and the fact that GZ was on the ground and Tray was on top of him, (witness statements and twigs on GZ's back) that's enough for me to believe self-defense as it has been posted in this thread under Florida law.

About one punch to the head is all I would tolerate if I were carrying a gun.

 

[jjenny]

The way the injuries were being described that GZ had, and the fact that GZ was on the ground and Tray was on top of him, (witness statements and twigs on GZ's back) that's enough for me to believe self-defense as it has been posted in this thread under Florida law.

About one punch to the head is all I would tolerate if I were carrying a gun.

Well using your logic, if you see a guy in car following you, you take off running, the guy comes after you, if you try to fight, the guy has a perfect right to shoot you. Isn't that so?