FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[gitana1]

I also thought that we didn't convict people who LE have not charged or publicly declared as a POI.

There are many people on this thread who seem to think they know all the answers. There are many scenarios and things that could have happened. I do not think Trayvon did anything wrong. However, I was not there, nor do I know all the facts. Without the same facts, I cannot be SURE that GZ's intent was murder, although I do think he should have minded his own business.

Say there was a grumpy old man who lived in a neighborhood, and he was constantly calling LE and complaining about children on his lawn. He yelled at kids to stay off his lawn and threatened to "get them" if they came on his lawn again. It was widely known that this grumpy old man hated children. But if a child ends up hurt on this man's property, we cannot just peg it on the old man because he hates kids. Hating someone is not a crime. It ain't nice, but it's legal. Even if GZ did hate black people, that is his right. It does not automatically convict him of murder. Do I think he should have minded his own business? Well, yes. Do I think he should have let LE do their job? Yep. Do I think GZ singled Trayvon because he was black? I do not know, because if he had have been white and been killed, this story would have never made it past local news. There would be no million "white people clothes" march. (I know white people wear hoodies... I am just saying) Some of you will say that if he had been white, he would be alive... but we cannot prove that anymore than we can prove he is dead because he is black. Is it possible that GZ hated blacks and he in cold blood killed Trayvon simply because he was black? Yes. It is very possible. Can it be PROVEN with the facts we have been presented so far? Nope.


What bothers me about this story is that Trayvon's death is only sensationalized because he is black and GZ is.... well, whatever nationality he is. If both had been white, we would not have heard. If both had been black, same thing. If GZ had been black, and Trayvon white, it would have been small town news as well. If they both had been Hispanic, we would have wanted to know if they were "legal" when they died/shot someone.

Understand, I am not defending GZ. I do feel like his actions led to unfortunate events, and I would have acted much differently. I do not know what the law is that he should be charge with. All I am sure of is that there is no one who can definitely say that GZ murdered Trayvon intentionally because he was black unless he confesses to it. The rest is circumstantial.

The color of someone's skin will always matter negatively if we continue make it matter positively. A nation cannot be color blind on occasion and see in black and white for others. We are continuing this vicious cycle ourselves.

Here's the thing. In that county, this is not the first time justice has been denied a black victim. There is a pattern there. It would not be major news if Zimmerman shot a white kid because had Trayvon been white, there is little doubt Zimmerman would have been arrested and a more thorough investigation done to determine what the heck happened. It is major news when, yet again, one more black victim is ignored in that area.

Also, and IMO, both Zimmerman and the police made a fatal assumption that Trayvon must have been some with an unclean past. Their actions, or lack thereof, resulted from that assumption. I have no doubt they are shocked and dismayed that they were dead wrong. This case is huge because Zimmerman could not have picked a worse victim and the police could not have ignored a worse victim - a young, gentle boy, with a sparkling clean record and reputation and a sweet face that makes him look like he could be anyone of our sons. THAT is why this case is so huge. Had Trayvon been a black man with anything negative that could hint at possible aggressive tendencies on his part, this case would get some play, but not nearly as much.

It's not going to go away, as a result, until there is accountability and justice for Trayvon and his family.

 

[octobermoon]

No, but they indicate that the negative way blacks are perceived in this country is pervasive. It's not everyone but it's a majority.



Wrong. We are assuming Trayvon could not have been the aggressor or aggressive because of the following:

1. Trayvon has no history of criminal activity.
2. Trayvon has no history of aggressive behavior according to any who know him.
3. Trayvon is reported to have been a gentle, soft spoken kid.
4. Trayvon reported he was scared because a strange man was following him.
5. A strange man was following Trayvon, in a car, and then on foot, at night.
6. Trayvon was trying to get away according to both Zimmerman and Tray's girlfriend.
7. Trayvon's killer outweighed him by almost double.
8. Trayvon's killer continued following him even after being told to not do that, and after muttering, "The a$$h*les always get away".
9. Trayvon's killer has a criminal record involving violence. He was charged with assault on an officer and only had the charges dismissed once he underwent a diversion program.
10. Trayvon's killer's ex girlfriend tried to get a restraining order against him citing numerous acts of violence against her on multiple occasions.
11. Some of Zimmerman's neighbors complained about Zimmerman's aggressive tactics: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html
10. Trayvon's girlfriend heard Zimmerman confront him, heard Trayvon ask why he was following him and then heard the sound of the earbud clatter and then go silent, indicating something jarred that earbud from Trayvon's head.
11. Trayvon's mother identified her own son's voice on the 911 calls crying for help.
12. Zimmerman's friend, in an effort to defend him, stated that Zimmerman was fed up.

Logic indicates that, when taking all of the above into consideration, it was not Trayvon who was the aggressor here. Skin color has nothing to do with it. Black people are nor more likely to be aggressive or peaceful than anyone else.

Thank you for this post. You said what I couldn't put into words.

 

[Sensei]

Here's the thing. In that county, this is not the first time justice has been denied a black victim. There is a pattern there. It would not be major news if Zimmerman shot a white kid because had Trayvon been white, there is little doubt Zimmerman would have been arrested and a more thorough investigation done to determine what the heck happened. It is major news when, yet again, one more black victim is ignored in that area.

Also, and IMO, both Zimmerman and the police made a fatal assumption that Trayvon must have been some with an unclean past. Their actions, or lack thereof, resulted from that assumption. I have no doubt they are shocked and dismayed that they were dead wrong. This case is huge because Zimmerman could not have picked a worse victim and the police could not have ignored a worse victim - a young, gentle boy, with a sparkling clean record and reputation and a sweet face that makes him look like he could be anyone of our sons. THAT is why this case is so huge. Had Trayvon been a black man with anything negative that could hint at possible aggressive tendencies on his part, this case would get some play, but not nearly as much.

It's not going to go away, as a result, until their is accountability and justice for Trayvon and his family.

I have to agree with this 1000% The history of this PD does have a great deal to do with it, and everyone needs to be afraid of any PD run amok, that makes unilateral decisions on who they want to be guilty or innocent irrespective of the evidence, since virtually anyone could be a victim of that system. How frightening to think that the people that we empower to keep us safe, the ones who have the power to deny us our freedom may be the very ones we need to be afraid of.

 

[vlpate]

2) My husband used to work in a little mom and pop grocery store in Denver. One afternoon, an elderly African-American man bought one small item. My husband just handed it to him without bagging it. The man handed the item back and asked for a bag for it. My husband gave him one but had a quizzical look on his face. The man said, "My mama always taught me to make sure you get a bag from the store so you won't be accused of stealing." How sad that decades later, as an elderly man, .he still felt he needed to do that Racial profiling continues to be an issue to this day.

Sad that we as a society and individuals haven't moved past that kind of ridiculousness. :cow:

Sorry, how was this a case of racial profiling? My elderly grandfather buried money under the floor of his garage in case the economy crashed again - he refused to believe his money was insured by the bank. Victims of traumatic events never forget or really ever feel it's safe to go back into the water, not my fault and not society's fault if they want to hang back while we move forward.

72% of the population in the US is white, 12% is African American - we have a black President, and Oprah Winfrey can make a millionaire just by recommending a book or product. To me, what we have here is reverse racism - if the rent-a-cop were black, in the same scenario, we wouldn't be talking about this case, IMO.

Does racism still go on? No doubt, but that is not what happened here IMO.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped~

Here's the thing. In that county, this is not the first time justice has been denied a black victim. There is a pattern there. It would not be major news if Zimmerman shot a white kid because had Trayvon been white, there is little doubt Zimmerman would have been arrested and a more thorough investigation done to determine what the heck happened. It is major news when, yet again, one more black victim is ignored in that area.

And there is proof of this in the many articles we have been reading. A white man took it upon himself to beat up a homeless black man. It was caught on VIDEO and yet the police failed to act. Finally, after enough citizen outrage (nothing like we are seeing here), the police arrested the white man. The police chief lost his job over it. So... who got his job? None other than the current Police Chief Lee. Now.... you would think, given these circumstance, PC Lee would be very much aware of this biased position of his staff and that PC Lee would be on the look out any future behavior that would be suspect.

You would think that PC Lee would have reviewed that 911 tape and would have locked GZ up because there is no self-defense when you are the agressor - not even under the Stand Your Ground Statute that this LE Dept. is trying to hide behind. But no... what PC Lee did was pat his officers on the back, give them permission to use the Statute as an excuse for inaction and then he stood back and waited for it all to go away.

So who is going to lose their job now? PC Lee - they are already asking him to step down.

I think maybe PC Lee just didn't get it... just didn't understand how his predecessor lost his job. It just wasn't a wake up call for him. And that is sad... on all kinds of levels.

Salem

 

[CathyinTexas]

The findings were that he had blood coming from the back of his head and from his nose. We don't know what further treatment he required, if any, because that hasn't been discussed.

I don't think a cop would put that he had a wound on the back of his head and to his nose, and grass and twigs and moisture on his back as if he had been on his back on the ground, if an EMT had said he's got blood splashed on him from the victim.

We wouldn't think that no investigation would be done when someone is shot to death either, but it was done or not done in this case. I too believe it was Trayvon's blood on him. I can see Trayvon's hand bumping his nose when he was trying to keep him from shooting him. I don't care that this murderer had a bloody nose.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Think about it. If Tray would have had a knife and fatally stabbed GZ out of fear, that absurd SYG statute would also have applied to him technically.
When two folks fight, they are both standing their ground. Whomever is the survivor can claim the other one attacked first. What is even more absurd is that this law also gives immunity from civil prosecution.
Sounds more like a law that would have applied to good old Tombstone AZ many decades ago. I just can not get over the insanity of it all.

The reason the whole country is outraged is because the teenager/child did not have a knife. He had nothing and did nothing wrong. Also, this was not a police officer. He had no authority, and nothing to indicate to Trayvon he was even the neighborhood "watch". I do not believe GZ's story that he walked away and Trayvon jumped him from behind. Why would the vigilante aggressor walk away from him since he hunted him down and was determined he wouldn't get away.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

On the first page here it says there was no victim. It has offenses then 01 then victims 00



http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

 

[Isabelle]

Why is it we still do not know what the point of entry of the bullet was that killed Trayvon. We should know that by now! I am suspicious that this information is being withheld for obvious reasons!

 

[Adrienne37]

The reason the whole country is outraged is because the teenager/child did not have a knife. He had nothing and did nothing wrong. Also, this was not a police officer. He had no authority, and nothing to indicate to Trayvon he was even the neighborhood "watch". I do not believe GZ's story that he walked away and Trayvon jumped him from behind. Why would the vigilante aggressor walk away from him since he hunted him down and was determined he wouldn't get away.

Especially considering he had a loaded 9 mm semi-automatic gun on him when he approached Trayvon.

 

[CathyinTexas]

He wouldn't have had any way to know GZ was armed at that time. It was a concealed gun.

My guess is that he took it out of the glove compartment (heard on tape) and had it in his hand, not concealed.

 

[annalia]

~Respectfully snipped~

And there is proof of this in the many articles we have been reading. A white man took it upon himself to beat up a homeless black man. It was caught on VIDEO and yet the police failed to act. Finally, after enough citizen outrage (nothing like we are seeing here), the police arrested the white man. The police chief lost his job over it. So... who got his job? None other than the current Police Chief Lee. Now.... you would think, given these circumstance, PC Lee would be very much aware of this biased position of his staff and that PC Lee would be on the look out any future behavior that would be suspect.

You would think that PC Lee would have reviewed that 911 tape and would have locked GZ up because there is no self-defense when you are the agressor - not even under the Stand Your Ground Statute that this LE Dept. is trying to hide behind. But no... what PC Lee did was pat his officers on the back, give them permission to use the Statute as an excuse for inaction and then he stood back and waited for it all to go away.

So who is going to lose their job now? PC Lee - they are already asking him to step down.

I think maybe PC Lee just didn't get it... just didn't understand how his predecessor lost his job. It just wasn't a wake up call for him. And that is sad... on all kinds of levels.

Salem

my bolding

And the officer in that case is the same officer there that night in Tray's case.

It would be interesting to know if he was the one that tried to change the witnesses statements.

JMHO

 

[lillygator]

Oh well then by all means let me restate: Then perhaps he should have stayed in his car and not started an altercation.

I have both Bachelor and Master degrees in child development. Your agreeing or disagreeing doesn't mean what I said isn't true.

so that makes your statement true??

He was a 17 year old black kid who just hit 17, followed by an older and much bigger white guy for apparently no reason whatsoever. He was scared and was in an unfamiliar neighborhood. He reacted like many a 17 year old BLACK kid would, stalked by a white guy in regular street clothes.
ZG was the one not civil.

white guy?

 

[CathyinTexas]

Because if his gun was out, he wouldn't have been on the ground with blood coming out of his head and nose. And the other poster is right, no one would physically attack a person who had a gun pointed at him.

Nor would anyone pointing a gun engage in a physical assault.

So I don't see any other way around this, but to realize the gun was concealed at this point.

Maybe when Trayvon was struggling and screaming, trying to save his own life the gun butt hit GZ in the nose. I still think the blood on the back of his head was Trayvon's because 2 witnesses saw him straddling Trayvon's body with his hands on him. Then after that he got up and put his hands on the back of his head. That is according to two eye witnesses.

 

[Sensei]

respectfully snipped

Originally Posted by JeannaT
The findings were that he had blood coming from the back of his head and from his nose. We don't know what further treatment he required, if any, because that hasn't been discussed.

This is the reason that I am suspicious, Lee had no problem stating that his injuries were indicative, and once the 911 tapes were released and he came under the firestorm of criticism, I do not see him having the evidence of horrific injuries that would have indicated a true fight for your life struggle, injuries that would have indicated that GZ had a real reason to fear for his life, and just remaining mute about it.

I still find it difficult to understand that the police did not thoroughly document those injuries with photographs, medical reports, as well as blood on GZ's hands, the condition of his hands, bruised knuckles, skin under fingernails, blood on clothes ect. If they had done that, and released it so that the people who are protesting could see that there was actual evidence then the protesting would stop....we would understand.

Trayvon's family would understand, would still not like it, would still be grieving for their son but they would at least understand where the decision that this was self defense came from. IMO, JMHO and stuff.

 

[Talina]

~Respectfully Snipped~

I just want to go on the record here that for me, this is not about race. For me, this about being able to stalk someone, chase them down, against LE advise, and shoot them and then claim self-defense. AND have LE sign you off on that claim of self-defense, when LE is holding the 911 tape that clearly shows who the aggressor was in the whole situation.

I would hope that if this was about people of other colors - the same outrage would be apparent.

Salem

Well said and exactly the problem I have with it as well.

I'll just add that I'd hope that the same outrage regarding of color as you said but also age as well. I don't care what age, race or sex the victim would have been in this situation, I'd still have the same outrage.

 

[Isabelle]

Just when you think you've heard and seen it all! What next, God?

 

[iluvmua]

Is GZ Caucasian or Hispanic? He looks like he could be Hispanic to me.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

we have a black President


Does racism still go on?

[Snipped with all due respect to highlight points I am addressing]

Our President's mother was white. Therefore he is not a black president, he is a (for lack of a better term) half-black president. That means he is also half-white.

So he is just as much white as black, no? Yet he's always referred to as black. Never white. Never even multiracial, insofar as I can recall.

Yes, racism still goes on.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Sorry, how was this a case of racial profiling? My elderly grandfather buried money under the floor of his garage in case the economy crashed again - he refused to believe his money was insured by the bank. Victims of traumatic events never forget or really ever feel it's safe to go back into the water, not my fault and not society's fault if they want to hang back while we move forward.

72% of the population in the US is white, 12% is African American - we have a black President, and Oprah Winfrey can make a millionaire just by recommending a book or product. To me, what we have here is reverse racism - if the rent-a-cop were black, in the same scenario, we wouldn't be talking about this case, IMO.

Does racism still go on? No doubt, but that is not what happened here IMO.

I don't understand why you are bringing up President Obama and Oprah. Their enormous success does mean that there aren't racial problems in the US. Madam C. J. Walker was a black woman who became a millionaire in 1911. Does that mean black people had it easy back then too?

And if Zimmerman had been black, and Trayvon white, he would've been arrested ASAP. The national media took weeks to pick up the case, so they weren't automatically jumping on a "white on black" crime. One reason it's getting coverage is because LE is not doing a thing about it.

In my opinion, a big reason why we don't see coverage of "black on white" crime (except for oh yeah, OJ SIMPSON) is because the type of victim the media focuses on (young, white, middle-class, pretty) are more likely to be killed by someone close to them, who is more likely to be white.