FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3

[Sensei]

does that mean ALL 17 year olds?

at 17, I was moved out, in college and definitely an adult.

eta: and in today's day and age, kids are growing up much faster.

Yes, it means all 17 yr olds. Just as at 17 a person has not completed the physical growth and development of their bodies, and there is still bone growth that will happen among other things, the human brain has not fully developed, and the hormones that make it function to give us the ability to see long range consequences from actions and curb impulsivity have simply not developed yet.

Check it out on Web MD if you like, it is a physical and psychological fact that the law and the Courts recognize.

 

[ynotdivein]

Stop sniping at one another. Stop it now.

Whatever "side" you are on (and I'm sad that "sides" have been drawn up), there is plenty to be learned from just listening to each other.

If we can't find middle ground then at least we can agree to disagree respectfully. And to observe WS Rules.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I heard some legal expert stating that ballistics will tell us if the gun was close to Trayvon's skin or clothing when fired and that could tell us a lot about what happened when he was shot. Might be important.

But for me, it would not change things much. If Zimmerman accosted this teenager at night and pushed him and Trayvon fought back, he still can't claim self defense. And how does a 140 pound kid get the best of a 240 pound man anyhow?

I keep looking at that police report and the few things that are in it and all the things that are left out.

Martin was laying on his stomach with his hands under him and his face in the grass. Did that mean his face was pointing straight down or was his head turned to the left or right? How were his legs? were they spread or together or one splayed and one straight or bent? Why in the description was it important to say his hands were under him?

So much was left out, could he see blood on Martin?

I think that cop put that in the record that his hands were under him because Zimmerman said he thought he had a gun and that is why he had his hand in his waistband at the beginning and Zimmerman had him down on the ground and the kid would not bring his hands out and Zimmerman shot him in the back.

That report was written to back up Zimmerman's story and that is why I think the hands under the body was so important for this cop to put in the report just like it was important to put the statement about yelling for help.

 

[vlpate]

I don't understand why you are bringing up President Obama and Oprah. Their enormous success does mean that there aren't racial problems in the US. Madam C. J. Walker was a black woman who became a millionaire in 1911. Does that mean black people had it easy back then too?

And if Zimmerman had been black, and Trayvon white, he would've been arrested ASAP. The national media took weeks to pick up the case, so they weren't automatically jumping on a "white on black" crime. One reason it's getting coverage is because LE is not doing a thing about it.

In my opinion, a big reason why we don't see coverage of "white on black" crime (except for oh yeah, OJ SIMPSON) is because the type of victim the media focuses on (young, white, middle-class, pretty) are more likely to be killed by someone close to them, who is more likely to be white.

BEM: OJ was black

So your opinion is this is a racially motivated miscarriage of justice?

 

[lillygator]

really - the "courts recognize"?? then no 17 yr old should be tried as an adult correct?? since they are children....

 

[HiHater]

That was another thing that was mentioned by several people tonight, the Officer who responded to the scene after the police made the initial discovery was NOT a homicide detective he was a narcotics officer....which may explain why the deceased was so immediately tested for drugs and alcohol, you know when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail, except that they didn't test GZ which considering the circumstances I find to be extremely odd.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/ResponsetoABCNews.pdf

The Sanford Police Department is receiving requests to respond to an ABC News
story that reported “a source inside the police department” told them a narcotics detective participated in interviews of Zimmerman. It is true that a narcotics investigator conducted the initial interview with Zimmerman.

I also find it odd that a narcotic investigator wouldn't test for drugs/alcohol. Also, with regard to the "source" inside the police department who revealed that information---I hope he or she would be willing to reveal any other inconsistencies that he or she is aware of...

 

[IzzyBlanche]

And how does a 140 pound kid get the best of a 240 pound man anyhow?

My theory: Somehow he's had enough spare time despite being an honor student and playing on the football team to learn how to use a can of iced tea and a bag of Skittles as ninja weapons.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I don't understand why you are bringing up President Obama and Oprah. Their enormous success does mean that there aren't racial problems in the US. Madam C. J. Walker was a black woman who became a millionaire in 1911. Does that mean black people had it easy back then too?

And if Zimmerman had been black, and Trayvon white, he would've been arrested ASAP. The national media took weeks to pick up the case, so they weren't automatically jumping on a "white on black" crime. One reason it's getting coverage is because LE is not doing a thing about it.

In my opinion, a big reason why we don't see coverage of "white on black" crime (except for oh yeah, OJ SIMPSON) is because the type of victim the media focuses on (young, white, middle-class, pretty) are more likely to be killed by someone close to them, who is more likely to be white.

But how do you know that?

 

[Sensei]

really - the "courts recognize"?? then no 17 yr old should be tried as an adult correct?? since they are children....

They can be, but that call as always is up to the Prosecutor and is based on far more than just the age of the perpetrator, it is also based on history of various acts and the heinousness of the crime, or severity of what the offense is and psychological evaluations.

most often it is youthful offender or Juvenile court, which can be up to age 18 and if they are a first time offender or no older than 19 there is the option of pretrial intervention programs which will expunge your record contingent on good behavior for a specified amount of time.

 

[HiHater]

really - the "courts recognize"?? then no 17 yr old should be tried as an adult correct?? since they are children....

The courts recognize that people under 18 do not have the same capacity/functionality/maturity as adults...this was a major part of the reason the court decided that no one under the age of 18 can be given the death penalty. So while a 17 year old can be tried as an adult, he or she cannot be sentenced to death.

That's my summary, but the actual case opinion in Roper v. Simmons gives far more details.

 

[Sensei]

The courts recognize that people under 18 do not have the same capacity/functionality/maturity as adults...this was a major part of the reason the court decided that no one under the age of 18 can be given the death penalty. So while a 17 year old can be tried as an adult, he or she cannot be sentenced to death.

That's my summary, but the actual case opinion in Roper v. Simmons gives far more details.

Thank you your answer is far more simplified, under age 18 they can still be tried as an adult but the penalties are modified in that they don't face the ultimate penalty.

 

[lillygator]

still is contradictory. if they are a CHILD as all is saying ------- be tried as a child...not modified adult versions......



and go gators!!!

 

[Horace Finklestein]

*snipped for emphasis*

I'm saying that I have the appropriate education in the appropriate field of study to state with certainty that a 17-year old is not considered developmentally to be adult. Disagreeing with that doesn't make it become false.

For pete's sake. I really don't think I've been unclear.

Could you back that claim up with some peer reviewed research? I think there is debate on this issue.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

He slurred words while talking to the dispatcher. I bet is he was still slurring his words.

Funny how the cop mentions in that report done that night that he remembers the guy saying he was yelling asking people for help and nobody would help him. All the words zimmerman probably said that night and the cop knows that quote is important and puts it in his report.

What are you basing this on?

 

[lillygator]

if this situation reversed --- are you trying TV as a CHILD or ADULT?

 

[Horace Finklestein]

*Sigh*

You were still legally and developmentally considered a child. That is not a slight on your level of responsibility and maturity. I'm done arguing about this. Google is your friend and could give you plenty of information on the subject (try "late adolescence").

There is plenty to dispute the claim that 17 is still a child. Conversely, some peer reviewed sources say late adolescence goes to age 21. There is certainly debate on the issue.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I heard some legal expert stating that ballistics will tell us if the gun was close to Trayvon's skin or clothing when fired and that could tell us a lot about what happened when he was shot. Might be important.

But for me, it would not change things much. If Zimmerman accosted this teenager at night and pushed him and Trayvon fought back, he still can't claim self defense. And how does a 140 pound kid get the best of a 240 pound man anyhow?

Nothing is certain in physical confrontations. Anything could have happened.

 

[SuziQ]

Even IF he was dressed like a , he was not doing anything "thuggish" by walking home talking to his girlfriend while carrying a bag of skittles and an iced tea.

You want to see how Zimmerman saw him? Then stop ignoring the fact that Zimmerman said he was in his late teens. He looked suspicious because of the hoodie. Zimmerman described a "button" on Trayvon's shirt. How many "thugs" wear buttons on their shirts?

I think some people in this thread are going WAY too far, especially on a victim friendly forum.

ITA. This is getting rediculous, offensive, and an embarrassment to see on a victim friendly forum. Good god my 17 year old son and his Mormon friends dress and look like Trayvon. And you know what? They walk with a swagger too. Gasp!

 

[Inabsentia]

When peer reviewed research has been presented on this, and other topics, on this thread already, that research has been utterly dismissed by some people who have declared that they just don't wish to believe it. Expending any further significant effort linking more seems like a futile waste of time. If a person's interest is genuine, google can be your friend. Jmho

 

[flourish]

There is plenty to dispute the claim that 17 is still a child. Conversely, some peer reviewed sources say late adolescence goes to age 21. There is certainly debate on the issue.

When peer reviewed research has been presented on this, and other topics, on this thread already, they have been utterly dismissed by some people who have declared that they just don't wish to believe them. Expending any further significant effort linking more seems like a futile waste of time. If a person's interest is genuine, google can be your friend. Jmho

Thank you, Inabsentia. I was all ready to go finding articles and then realized that there was no point. Websleuth members know how to do research.

And no one ever said that having the legal ages of adulthood be 18 (and 21) are developmentally appropriate or fair, just reality.