FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

[jjenny]

I've never said it is against the law for GZ to follow anyone. I've said that I believe once he did that, he lost any claim to the SYG law to be applicable in his defense. He was no longer standing his ground. He was following and leaving his protected ground.

I'm definitely not alone in my belief of this as this has been the opinion stated by many legal experts. Local Florida defense attorneys have spoken to this and said it does not apply (Richard Hornsby has also spoken up and said this as well), even his own attorney has now said it does not apply.

IMO

Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.

“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.” http://patdollard.com/2012/03/flori...ould-complicate-trayvon-martin-shooting-case/

His lawyer claimed "stand your ground" applies "primarily when you are in your house." But it applies anywhere one can legally be. Here is cnn legal analyst's take on it:

"The legal question at the heart of the case involves Florida's so-called "stand your ground" law, which the legislature passed, at the behest of the National Rifle Association, in 2005. Before that time, Florida law resembled that of most other states; during confrontations, individuals had a duty to retreat rather than to respond to provocations. Under the new law, a person is allowed to use deadly force if he is in a place he has a right to be and feels reasonably threatened with serious harm."
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/...w-law-enforcement-confrontation?_s=PM:OPINION

 

[Yoda]

I've never said it is against the law for GZ to follow anyone. I've said that I believe once he did that, he lost any claim to the SYG law to be applicable in his defense. He was no longer standing his ground. He was following and leaving his protected ground.

I'm definitely not alone in my belief of this as this has been the opinion stated by many legal experts. Local Florida defense attorneys have spoken to this and said it does not apply (Richard Hornsby has also spoken up and said this as well), even his own attorney has now said it does not apply.

IMO

Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.

“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.” http://patdollard.com/2012/03/flori...ould-complicate-trayvon-martin-shooting-case/

If TM attacked GZ it was self defense. Following someone does not give that person the right to punch you in the nose or push you to the ground.

 

[rotterdam]

Here's a thought about that part of the 911 call. GZ says "yep, he's coming to check me out" - could have been that Trayvon had started walking towards GZ in his truck.

Then when GZ says "he's running" - maybe Trayvon took a very quick turn to go in between buildings or down another road so that GZ would no longer have him in sight and Trayvon either ran or "walked fast" doing that.

IIRC at the point in the 911 call is when we hear the sounds of GZ getting out of the vehicle. What I said above corresponds with that as Trayvon was now between buildings out of the line of sight GZ had in his vehicle.

JMHO but that's how I interpret that part of the call.

Tray did not recognize the guy in the vehicle who did not communicate so spooked Tray ran to an area where there was no road and continued on his way in the general direction of the condominium where a car could not follow him. Sounds logical to me when you are scared.

Have we ever seen exactly where Tray was killed? Was it between buildings on the grass or near a road?.

 

[Yoda]

I've never said it is against the law for GZ to follow anyone. I've said that I believe once he did that, he lost any claim to the SYG law to be applicable in his defense. He was no longer standing his ground. He was following and leaving his protected ground.

I'm definitely not alone in my belief of this as this has been the opinion stated by many legal experts. Local Florida defense attorneys have spoken to this and said it does not apply (Richard Hornsby has also spoken up and said this as well), even his own attorney has now said it does not apply.

IMO

Richard Hornsby, an Orlando-based criminal defense attorney, says he thinks the grand jury is likely to indict Zimmerman for manslaughter, a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Less likely is a more serious charge of second-degree murder, a crime that implies intent and that is punishable by up to life in prison, he said.

“This case isn’t even a close call to me. This is a case of a guy trying to be a vigilante,” Hornsby said. “It wasn’t like he was trying to avoid trouble. He brought a firearm to a fistfight.” http://patdollard.com/2012/03/flori...ould-complicate-trayvon-martin-shooting-case/

Opinion piece.

 

[Yoda]

Tray did not recognize the guy in the vehicle who did not communicate so spooked Tray ran to an area where there was no road and continued on his way in the general direction of the condominium where a car could not follow him. Sounds logical to me when you are scared.

Have we ever seen exactly where Tray was killed? Was it between buildings on the grass or near a road?.

A couple of local stations had video. The dailymail has photos of the area.

 

[rotterdam]

If TM attacked GZ it was self defense. Following someone does not give that person the right to punch you in the nose or push you to the ground.

It would if the other person pushed or shoved you in some way and/or grabbed your arm or ordered you to come along like a lamb to the slaughter. And all for no valid reason and with no authority whatsoever..

 

[jjenny]

It would if the other person pushed or shoved you in some way and/or grabbed your arm or ordered you to come along like a lamb to the slaughter. And all for no valid reason and with no authority whatsoever..

If GZ did any of those things he would not be covered by "stand your ground." But he obviously claims he didn't.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Tray did not recognize the guy in the vehicle who did not communicate so spooked Tray ran to an area where there was no road and continued on his way in the general direction of the condominium where a car could not follow him. Sounds logical to me when you are scared.

Have we ever seen exactly where Tray was killed? Was it between buildings on the grass or near a road?.

The police report said between buildings.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

If TM attacked GZ it was self defense. Following someone does not give that person the right to punch you in the nose or push you to the ground.

But being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not give you the right to retaliate with deadly force, either.

 

[jjenny]

But being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not give you the right to retaliate with deadly force, either.

It certainly does under FL "stand your ground" law.

 

[Yoda]

It would if the other person pushed or shoved you in some way and/or grabbed your arm or ordered you to come along like a lamb to the slaughter. And all for no valid reason and with no authority whatsoever..

Link where this happens to TM please. I linked where GZ says he was attacked.

 

[Yoda]

But being punched in the nose or pushed to the ground does not give you the right to retaliate with deadly force, either.

Please respond to what we were discussing. Following is not against the law.

 

[Yoda]

This site is not msm but he has an overhead diagram of the neighborhood, truck, etc. If accurate it could be helpful. Moo

http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html

 

[rotterdam]

Link where this happens to TM please. I linked where GZ says he was attacked.

I was going by the statement of Tray's GF when she was on the phone with him.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T26_hPU9jcs

 

[vlpate]

Tray did not recognize the guy in the vehicle who did not communicate so spooked Tray ran to an area where there was no road and continued on his way in the general direction of the condominium where a car could not follow him. Sounds logical to me when you are scared.

Have we ever seen exactly where Tray was killed? Was it between buildings on the grass or near a road?.

The green astrisk is where the altercation happened. The red @ is the entrance to the community. The yellow & is where Trayvon's father's girlfriend lives. The large arrows are where GZ told the dispatcher he was. The map and the other markings are by lolamoon08. I would have to dig up her post to find out what they mean.

 

[Yoda]

Holy cow!!!!!!! This link has the 47 pages of previous 911 calls. So long I have a lot of reading to do.

http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html

 

[vlpate]

Time of the 911 call, anyone know? Or the time of the other 911 calls?

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Following is not against the law. Putting your hands on someone is. According to the gf - she heard GZ say something to the effect "what are you doing here" - so GZ was right there with Trayvon. Again - common sense and logic tells me that regardless of what Trayvon said to him, he wasn't going to let him get away and therefore reached out and grabbed him by the arm. Trayvon now, felling threatened, punched GZ in the nose is an effort to try to get away - or at least get GZ's hand off him.

What we need to know - and probably never will - is who put whose hands on the other one FIRST. Whoever that was became the aggressor.

Again, common sense and logic tells me that Trayvon did not "touch" GZ first - we know he was afraid and had relayed to his gf that "some dude was following him" so why would he touch him? Elude and evade - that's why Trayvon was probably trying to do, yet GZ caught up to him and grabbed a hold of him.

JMHO (an opinion is all we will ever have of this - GZ will never say he touched Trayvon first and Trayvon can't speak for himself)

 

[rotterdam]

Please respond to what we were discussing. Following is not against the law.

Harassment is.

 

[jjenny]

I agree that if GZ put his hands on Trayvon first he would not be covered under "stand your ground" law. He would also not be covered if he run after Trayvon after their fight. But common sense does not equal "beyond the reasonable doubt," so prosecution would need to prove it.