FL - 17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #5

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First of all, :seeya: WELCOME TO THE FORUM!:seeya:

Secondly, thank you for the information.

Thirdly, your last few lines makes me wonder, if GZ was indeed the one on the bottom of the altercation (which would explain the head injury and wet, grassy back), he could have shot TM and scooted out from under him, leaving TM face down.

By what measure?

I'm going to go into a little bit of gore here, so if that bothers you, you should probably discontinue reading.

Are you implying that a gunshot wound from a 9mm round starts gushing blood from the moment of impact? If Martin was shot anywhere but directly in the heart, there is a likely possibility that a pneumothorax occurred and he was bleeding into the space around the lungs. The bleeding would be majorly internal and not even look that bad externally. Martin wearing a hoodie/any other thick clothing could also keep any bleeding/blood splatter from getting on Zimmerman.

The entire premise here is that there is no reason to believe that Martin being on his stomach means anything with respect to when or how he was shot.

JMO (With experience gained from military combat lifesaver courses)
 
What's that supposed to imply? That its alright to paint another a criminal who's yet to be charged of a crime... That right there is frightening... Please, Please, Please, tell me that's not how things work here, for that's borderline slander. Something I would think we would all wish to avoid...

<modsnip>

NO THAT IS NOT OK WITH ME.
In My book GZ is now a victim, who has to live in hiding.
 
I've seen this repeated multiple times - I've been reading these threads long before I decided to join the discussion.

Out of curiosity, what "valuable evidence" do you think would be gained from Zimmerman's clothing? Keep in mind that this is not your traditional murder investigation. It's evident that he's the one that fired the shot, and has allegedly admitted such. There is no question as to whether he was the one that shot Martin. With that being said, what would his clothing provide in this scenario that is not already known?

Well, it would provide key gun powder evidence that could maybe explain how far away from his body he held the gun when he shot it? It could also determine, based on Trayvon's injury, and if it were bleeding, whether or not Trayvon fell on top of him immediately after shooting him? Also, fibers from Trayvon's clothes? Mr. Zimmerman's own blood from the wounds he had? Were his clothes ripped or stretched out? Tons and tons of evidence that could be gathered from his clothes.

If LE was doing an investigation into the claims of self-defense as they have stated, they would have collected this evidence. MOO
 
Well, it would provide key gun powder evidence that could maybe explain how far away from his body he held the gun when he shot it? It could also determine, based on Trayvon's injury, and if it were bleeding, whether or not Trayvon fell on top of him immediately after shooting him? Also, fibers from Trayvon's clothes? Mr. Zimmerman's own blood from the wounds he had? Were his clothes ripped or stretched out? Tons and tons of evidence that could be gathered from his clothes.

If LE was doing an investigation into the claims of self-defense as they have stated, they would have collected this evidence. MOO

bbm

LE should have been investigating a HOMICIDE. Period. There job is not to prove or disprove self-defense. That was mistake number 1. The biggest mistake IMO.
 
What did you infer that from? The question wasn't if Martin was running, it was if Zimmerman could catch up to a running Martin. If not, that would imply that Martin found Zimmerman.

JMO

You honestly believe, that after Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman, at some point in time Trayvon made the decision to run/walk towards Zimmerman?
 
most police or dispatchers, when they tell a caller "you don't need to do that" assume the person understands and cooperates. GZ says OK but keeps following and doesn't tell the officer that he is still following, thus being deceptive.

Seems some people say that the person on the line needs to give a direct ORDER to the caller, "I hereby ORDER you to stop following him" can't say I've ever heard a dispatcher on these calls give people instruction in that manner when they call 911. If someone calls 911 for help and assistance it's only rational to assume they will do what you tell them, they're calling you, the expert, for help. Why would think they need to ORDER you-seems ridiculous.




IMHO.. Dispatch told GZ NOT to follow him..IMHO..Thats being explicit.. JMHO
 
I thought that the entire point of this forum was to have opinions and speculation that are grounded in factual reality. Perhaps I was mistaken.



I believe calling it more lip service is based in factual reality. This report was released under the heading "Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report". When you clicked on it your got a pdf and at the top of it was Offense Report then Sanford Police Department Public Version.

It was very misleading and only a partial release of the report made by 2 officers and very self serving trying to justify no charges.



When this was pointed out to the City they changed the report to read at the top Partial Report Only and in this one they decided they better mark there was a victim in the victim box.



Here is the first report. http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf





Here is the second report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf



IMO they are both very self serving and just lip service to appease the puplic without releasing the whole report and truth.
 
There is no link. I thought I made it clear that I was speculating based on the position of his body. That was totally IMO. We need to see the autopsy.

Post #122

Belinda: "But, every time I read about how Trayvon was found laying, shot in the back"

BEM: No, you did not make it clear.
 
First of all, :seeya: WELCOME TO THE FORUM!:seeya:

Secondly, thank you for the information.

Thirdly, your last few lines makes me wonder, if GZ was indeed the one on the bottom of the altercation (which would explain the head injury and wet, grassy back), he could have shot TM and scooted out from under him, leaving TM face down.

He scooted out from under a person who is 6'0-6'3 and 160 pounds of possibly dead weight? IMO it would make more sense to roll the person off, instead of scooting. Secondly, if Trayvon was on top, at what point did Zimmerman retrieve his firearm from the holster in his waistband?
 
most police or dispatchers, when they tell a caller "you don't need to do that" assume the person understands and cooperates. GZ says OK but keeps following and doesn't tell the officer that he is still following, thus being deceptive.

Seems some people say that the person on the line needs to give a direct ORDER to the caller, "I hereby ORDER you to stop following him" can't say I've ever heard a dispatcher on these calls give people instruction in that manner when they call 911. If someone calls 911 for help and assistance it's only rational to assume they will do what you tell them, they're calling you, the expert, for help. Why would think they need to ORDER you-seems ridiculous.

I would also like to know why, if Trayvon was so suspicious, Zimmerman didn't want to stay on the line with LE while he was following him? Why hang up the phone? Why tell them to call him back? Makes very little sense?
 
I hope that I am wrong about what I think the autopsy information holds. But, every time I read about how Trayvon was found laying, shot in the back is the only thing that comes to mind. I think they need to release the autopsy ASAP even if withholding other information. I just have a very bad feeling about this. Again, I hope I am wrong. That would just be that much more awful.

Can we please bold the entire sentence from Belinda's post before accusing her of doing something she didn't?
 
Well, it would provide key gun powder evidence that could maybe explain how far away from his body he held the gun when he shot it?
And what relevance would this have to the investigation? I would say that gunpowder on Martin's clothing would be the more desired evidence to have here. And they have that.

It could also determine, based on Trayvon's injury, and if it were bleeding, whether or not Trayvon fell on top of him immediately after shooting him?
This is the only valid reasoning I see, IMO.

And Also, fibers from Trayvon's clothes? Mr. Zimmerman's own blood from the wounds he had? Were his clothes ripped or stretched out? Tons and tons of evidence that could be gathered from his clothes.
All of this seems circumstantial and not of any use at face value. You couldn't prove with any reasonable reliability that Trayvon stretched out the clothes. Witness reports already establish they were fighting; fiber analysis would be fairly extraneous, as would the stretched clothes. What bearing would Zimmerman's own blood have on anything?

If LE was doing an investigation into the claims of self-defense as they have stated, they would have collected this evidence. MOO
In any case, is there reason to believe that they did not collect this evidence?

All of this is JMO.
 
You honestly believe, that after Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman, at some point in time Trayvon made the decision to run/walk towards Zimmerman?

Trayvon had walked toward him in the beginning, let's not forget that.
 
I believe calling it more lip service is based in factual reality. This report was released under the heading "Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report". When you clicked on it your got a pdf and at the top of it was Offense Report then Sanford Police Department Public Version.

It was very misleading and only a partial release of the report made by 2 officers and very self serving trying to justify no charges.



When this was pointed out to the City they changed the report to read at the top Partial Report Only and in this one they decided they better mark there was a victim in the victim box.



Here is the first report. http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf





Here is the second report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf



IMO they are both very self serving and just lip service to appease the puplic without releasing the whole report and truth.
And this is the factual basis I was asking for. Thank you for answering my question. :)
 
Does anyone find it odd that the police report lists the weight of every single witness and the victim, but not Zimmerman's?

That info could have been obtained by asking him or looking at his driver's license.
 
I haven't "hung" anyone, nor have I advocated hanging anyone, or posted rewards for their capture, or ranted, or marched or railed, or burned anyone in effigy. I feel that George Zimmerman made lousy choices, probably rooted in bigotry, that exceeded any reasonable authority he could be assumed to have had. I feel that those choices led directly to the death at Zimmerman's hands of a child who was minding his own business. I feel that if George Zimmerman had just called LE and finished his drive home from the store then Trayvon Martin would still be alive. I am extremely dubious that George Zimmerman suffered or was about to suffer grievous injury of the type that would justify lethal force. These are the things that I have come to believe after careful examination of the paltry amount of evidence available so far, and judicious application of myown common sense, as well as application of my training in sociology.

I have not, to date, slung any mud, used any slurs, or advocated for anything, accusations to the contrary. I will, however, go on record as advocating for something now. I am advocating or, and desirous of, full and exhaustive investigation of this incident by all applicable parties and by all means available. I would like to see all witness testimony, full forensic investigation, disclosure of autopsy results, the contents of the police reports, documentation by professionals of Zimmerman's injuries and full accountability by all investigating parties. I want justice.

I hope i have been as clear as possible about what I believe, what I want, and what I am advocating for. I hope this will put to lie any accusations of my seeking to see anyone "hung". Also, insofar as hanging goes, I am firmly anti-death penalty.


I feel that we do not know enough to say most of what you are saying.
I know GZ followed him, I know GZ made a call. I know TM called his GF
and sadly :( I know he is now dead.
All the BBM are your assessments not fact.
I would like to see all the facts including everything about TM and his character, why he was expelled.
I do not know if he did or did not jump GZ but that would help me decide.
I don’t like Al Sharpton on the case, but I said enough about that.
IMHO it is more then justice that this case will turn into now.
It will be a money machine for Florida, tabloids, magazines, talk shows and whatever.
It will not bring the divide closer - AS creates more of a divide IMHO
This case will be here for a while so we may as well get the fact right if we can…
Stupid police messed up with record keeping already.
 
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