GUILTY FL - Dan Markel, 41, FSU Law Professor, Tallahassee, 18 July 2014 *arrests* #11

[Blue Shakehead]

thanks everyone for talking me down. But I still think that the reason they need to listen to the tapes and phone calls is because at least one of them is arguing that they don’t prove that Katie was involved. And the others have to argue that she was, and so they have to listen to everything. It’s a holiday weekend! They want to go home! I’m sure the first thing they did was take a vote. If it was all guilty, no way they would need to waste their afternoon on hearing anything else.

Maybe I am just talking myself down, but I do believe that jury duty is a significant burden and there will be at least some that want to do their due diligence and make absolutely sure before voting to convict. That is not the same as voting "Not Guilty".

This Dolce video is really tough to hear, but there is no innocent explanation for Katie. "Just listening to Charlie run through scenarios" about how to get away with murder or trying to determine if the cops are listening for evidence of the crime they commtited or if its a gang member extorting them for the crimes they committed.....none of this is exculpatory or even provides any innocent explanation for Katie. Its true that you can't hear her.....but the fact that shes participating in this calmly and then her very next step is to try to get the actual shooter to call the FBI/extorting gang member is not really a point in her favor.

 

[TTF14]

Do they have to stay all weekend or can they stop and come back on Tuesday?

Tuesday I believe.

 

[trialfan]

I think that the state could’ve done a better job in closing. They’ve had this case for too long, they’re forgetting what it looks like to people who haven’t seen it before. And she shouldn’t have mentioned bullet bourbon, that’s obviously pure coincidence, Wendi was invited to this weird stock the bar party, and she was asked to bring that particular kind of bourbon. She had no control of that. And it can be confirmed easily. And I agree that TV was their code. But her TV was repaired that morning. Unless she broke it on purpose to create an alibi. But why break the TV, especially when you then tell everyone, including the repairman, that it was cheaper than a hitman? And I don’t think she was trying to frame Lacasse, she had no idea what color car the hit men were driving. At most she was trying to divert attention from Charlie, perhaps. But either way, I dont think any of this Wendi stuff needed to be brought up in closing. The fact is, Charlie wanted the hit, Siggy did the hit, and there’s no connection between the two except Katie. That’s all you need. I don’t understand the strategy, from defense or prosecution, of focusing on Wendi.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Defendants hardly ever take the stand. Maybe the fact that she has, makes the jury think she must not be guilty? It almost makes me think she isn’t. (That and the fact that she didn’t take a deal and has chosen to sit in jail). Every criminal defendant should try this! It seems to work!

Thats one problem. Another one is that murder-for-hire schemes are incredibly difficult to prove and often end up with ridiculously lenient plea deals for people involved to turn into witnesses. And make no mistake, this Donna Adelson> Charlie Adelson > Katie Magbanua > Garcia > Rivera plot is as complex as they get. The people with the actual motive are completely isolated from the actual killers. I've seen murder for hire plots where people as involved or more than Katie get away with full immunity to testify against the co-conspirators because without them, there is no case.

This case is special because of the FBI sting/wiretaps. That evidence is not normal. But even with that, the Adelsons have demonstrated to be extremely smart as far as murderers usually go. They got tripped up a couple times. But without Garica phoning Harvey Adelson once by accident, theres a really good chance this never gets solved. And if Charlie had bought everyone burners before the murder, there is a zero percent chance.

There is a lot of doubt as to whether Harvey and Wendi Adelson are involved. Why? Because they are not caught on the wires saying something dumb. But Harvey Adelson was having just as much difficulty sleeping after the bump. He hired undercover cops to escort him to Markel's funeral and refused to talk to police. Wendi Adelson moved her kids one day after the funeral, changed the kid's names and then completely separated herself from her oldest brother because he dared to ask some questions about who might have done this. So there is no wire evidence that they are involved, but that doesn't mean we know their involvement. And they are obviously all on board with the cover-up. This is not a family where a couple bad apples spoiled the whole batch. They are all rotten, except for Robert.

 

[Snoop Sister]

It is good to see the jury are not making a rush decision and are being prudent. I don’t think it is a sign of leaning one way or another regarding KM’s guilt. They are being very careful imo.
Although, personally I believe she is a manipulator and guilty of all counts!

 

[TTF14]

I think that the state could’ve done a better job in closing. They’ve had this case for too long, they’re forgetting what it looks like to people who haven’t seen it before. And she shouldn’t have mentioned bullet bourbon, that’s obviously pure coincidence, Wendi was invited to this weird stock the bar party, and she was asked to bring that particular kind of bourbon. She had no control of that. And it can be confirmed easily. And I agree that TV was their code. But her TV was repaired that morning. Unless she broke it on purpose to create an alibi. But why break the TV, especially when you then tell everyone, including the repairman, that it was cheaper than a hitman? And I don’t think she was trying to frame Lacasse, she had no idea what color car the hit men were driving. At most she was trying to divert attention from Charlie, perhaps. But either way, I dont think any of this Wendi stuff needed to be brought up in closing. The fact is, Charlie wanted the hit, Siggy did the hit, and there’s no connection between the two except Katie. That’s all you need. I don’t understand the strategy, from defense or prosecution, of focusing on Wendi.

I agree, although they did have to prove that it was a hit, for a reason, so as to not leave any room for it just being a robbery gone bad and them making up something about the Adelsons (devil's advocate).

I hope this jury knows that circumstantial evidence relies on their common sense. It is completely illogical that CA would pay his ex he was ghosting thousands and thousands of dollars for making one appointment with a web designer. C'mon now! And all her not remembering what she did for him as a personal assistant. I really hope these jurors are using their brains.

 

[trialfan]

Thats one problem. Another one is that murder-for-hire schemes are incredibly difficult to prove and often end up with ridiculously lenient plea deals for people involved to turn into witnesses. And make no mistake, this Donna Adelson> Charlie Adelson > Katie Magbanua > Garcia > Rivera plot is as complex as they get. The people with the actual motive are completely isolated from the actual killers. I've seen murder for hire plots where people as involved or more than Katie get away with full immunity to testify against the co-conspirators because without them, there is no case.

This case is special because of the FBI sting/wiretaps. That evidence is not normal. But even with that, the Adelsons have demonstrated to be extremely smart as far as murderers usually go. They got tripped up a couple times. But without Garica phoning Harvey Adelson once by accident, theres a really good chance this never gets solved. And if Charlie had bought everyone burners before the murder, there is a zero percent chance.

It’s so true, it was that one call to Harvey that made the connection for them. They found the phone number on the rental car form and at the cell tower by Premier, and then they cross-referenced it with the phone numbers of the Adelsons and found only one connection, that one phone call to Harvey. Otherwise they would’ve had nothing, just a random guy named Sigfredo, unless someone came forward. Or unless they spoke to Charlie and asked him about ex girlfriends and somehow were smart enough to make the connection that way. The police never interviewed Charlie, even though both Wendi and Lacasse implicated him. Any reason why? I know he wasn’t there for the funeral, and they all lawyered up pretty quickly, but they should’ve had someone go down to where he was and talk to him. These people could write a textbook on how to get away with murder. Get an intermediary. Don’t talk about it on the phone. Don’t let the intermediary tell you anything about the job or who is doing it. Give the money to the intermediary in cash late at night. Lawyer up immediately and never talk to police. Tell the intermediary to lawyer up and not talk to them either. You just have to live with the guilt. He did do something stupid by calling Katie and Donna all morning when the murder was taking place.

 

[rgrene]

Defendants hardly ever take the stand. Maybe the fact that she has, makes the jury think she must not be guilty? It almost makes me think she isn’t. (That and the fact that she didn’t take a deal and has chosen to sit in jail). Every criminal defendant should try this! It seems to work!

I think i'm going to vomit! I didn't think there could be even one person on the planet who could think she was not guilty.

 

[trialfan]

Also, the jury would have to conclude that Rivera was not credible at all. And he is. He took a deal, but he’s credible. Except he doesn’t know the difference between a lion and an owl. I think the state was counting on Katie flipping as well, and had no plan for if she didn’t. I think they should’ve arrested Charlie at the same time as Katie. Let them all turn on each other. He wouldve implicated her, and then she would’ve implicated him.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

It’s so true, it was that one call to Harvey that made the connection for them. They found the phone number on the rental car form and at the cell tower by Premier, and then they cross-referenced it with the phone numbers of the Adelsons and found only one connection, that one phone call to Harvey. Otherwise they would’ve had nothing, just a random guy named Sigfredo, unless someone came forward. Or unless they spoke to Charlie and asked him about ex girlfriends and somehow were smart enough to make the connection that way. The police never interviewed Charlie, even though both Wendi and Lacasse implicated him. Any reason why? I know he wasn’t there for the funeral, and they all lawyered up pretty quickly, but they should’ve had someone go down to where he was and talk to him.

I'm usually hard on the cops, but the police did a magnificent job on this case, regardless of the verdict. They did not interview Charlie because they fully understood that doing so would make him completely change his behaviour and take extra precautions. Instead they let him believe he wasnt even a suspect. No calls, no interviews. Nothing. For almost 2 years. And he got comfortable. In fact, they interviewed nobody with the exception of Rivera and only because he was already in federal custody serving out a 12 year sentence and staring a life in jail or the death penalty. Rivera was not out in the free world to talk freely with any other co-conspirators.

If you look at the bump strategy...to plant a few breadcrumbs with the completely irrational and insane Donna Adelson, the cops knew from how she was plotting the divorce and controlling Rob Adelson's previous marriage/life that she would go nuts and set off a chain reaction where all the real players would start talking.

They could have gone to the mostly low IQ Garcia (who is the only one with enough sense to not want to talk on phones). They could have gone to Magbanua, who is a mother of 2 kids...one with special needs...a prime candidate to just flip and turn everyone in. They could have gone to Charlie....but he's always suspected that the FBI or IRS were following him and he would have lawyered up immediately. Go to anyone but Donna Adelson, and everyone is throwing out their phones, and the wiretap is dead. But they went to Donna. And that's Charlie's weakness....his mom/sister's mental health. And it worked as well as anyone could possibly imagine, for a family and plot as cunning as this one. If there is anyone who thinks they can outwit the dumbass cops, its Charlie Adelson. But not from a direct police interview...it had to be an extortion scheme, where he was just paranoid enough to not know who was behind it and his crazy mother was just crazy enough to be stuck crapping herself to sleep every night until Charlie could get to the bottom of it.

 

[BearWatcher]

The prosecution was pretty clear that there were two routes to get to KM / Adelsons. 1. Identifying the car make and color, thanks to the neighbor. 2. Call to HA phone. Two routes lead to same crew which has KM.

 

[Weki]

What I have learned during my one-time experience as a juror is that it takes certain people longer to process the evidence or connect the dots. Certain jurors are indifferent and may not even pay all that much attention during the trial. It really can be disheartening to realize not everyone takes this duty seriously. So the group that does will have to connect the dots and argue the state’s evidence for the others. Literally walk them through it. Spoon feed them. People’s attention spans are different.

David Rudolf (Michael “ The Staircase” Peterson’s lawyer) also said as much in an interview. Wish I could remember where I heard it. But basically he said you have certain jurors that will be for the state, certain for defense, and a whole bunch of “filler” jurors. The “state’s jurors” and the “defense’s jurors” essentially argue to the others.

 

[trialfan]

I think i'm going to vomit! I didn't think there could be even one person on the planet who could think she was not guilty.

I was being facetious.

 

[rgrene]

I was being facetious.

I feel much much better now! Thank you!!

 

[TTF14]

What I have learned during my one-time experience as a juror is that it takes certain people longer to process the evidence or connect the dots. Certain jurors are indifferent and may not even pay all that much attention during the trial. It really can be disheartening to realize not everyone takes this duty seriously. So the group that does will have to connect the dots and argue the state’s evidence for the others. Literally walk them through it. Spoon feed them. People’s attention spans are different.

David Rudolf (Michael “ The Staircase” Peterson’s lawyer) also said as much in an interview. Wish I could remember where I heard it. But basically he said you have certain jurors that will be for the state, certain for defense, and a whole bunch of “filler” jurors. The “state’s jurors” and the “defense’s jurors” essentially argue to the others.

This is a good point. I can only imagine if my mom was on a jury......

 

[trialfan]

I feel much much better now! Thank you!!

I do think that this is an under appreciated defense tactic (facetious again). Who knew that you could just have your client get on the stand and deny everything, even when it makes no sense!

 

[KidonGadol]

It’s so true, it was that one call to Harvey that made the connection for them. They found the phone number on the rental car form and at the cell tower by Premier, and then they cross-referenced it with the phone numbers of the Adelsons and found only one connection, that one phone call to Harvey. Otherwise they would’ve had nothing, just a random guy named Sigfredo, unless someone came forward. Or unless they spoke to Charlie and asked him about ex girlfriends and somehow were smart enough to make the connection that way. The police never interviewed Charlie, even though both Wendi and Lacasse implicated him. Any reason why? I know he wasn’t there for the funeral, and they all lawyered up pretty quickly, but they should’ve had someone go down to where he was and talk to him. These people could write a textbook on how to get away with murder. Get an intermediary. Don’t talk about it on the phone. Don’t let the intermediary tell you anything about the job or who is doing it. Give the money to the intermediary in cash late at night. Lawyer up immediately and never talk to police. Tell the intermediary to lawyer up and not talk to them either. You just have to live with the guilt. He did do something stupid by calling Katie and Donna all morning when the murder was taking place.

All speculation. LE found the 762 -- cell phone number with "brother" on the car rental form : they already knew who hired the murder car and his number.


(It's an obvious thing to do to run a licence check in LR and bingo they find the speeding citation. This leads back to the other rental agency via the car's tag plate and the fact that SG took out that rental car. )

THey can either go to LR sitting in prison anyway and point out what they have already and the photos they've dug out and his cell phone tracks or they can use underworld Miami contacts to find out who is Rivera's brother . The story is that SG was kept under surveillance and he went to a pawn broke to redeem a pledge a long time after the murders . In doing so he had to write out his cell number in his own hand. He'd likely ditched his murder cell phone at this time (it stopped talking to towers on the 19th July) but he remembered the number. The police immediately entered the pawn shop and seized the paperwork. That was the original story. Maybe that's a rubbish story to stop Rivera being murdered in prison.

I should add that Rivera said he knew this was being done for the "Lady with the Kids". Allegedly SG told him that . Whether Isom worded him up on that is an interesting point. The police only had to enter the Markel residence with a warrant and they'd see evidence of a protracted and messy divorce. Dan had lots of paperwork in his study on continuing matters on the divorce they say. That leads straight to Wendi as a person of interest.

The police did not interview CJA for their own reasons. Possibly the prosecutor did not want it done as it would ruin the chance of an immunity deal with WJA for testimony -just one reason. (as if the prosecutor or SA 's department can control the police like this). CJA is crazy enough to try to get potential witnesses like Jessica R murdered if he felt cornered.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

5 hours. I'm guessing they return with
- Conspiracy: guilty
- Solicitation: guilty
- 1st Degree Murder: not guilty *
- 2nd Degree Murder: guilty*

All of this assumes that no juror has been bribed, which I would not bet against.

* This part makes no sense, but jurors are humans and love a good compromise.

 

[friendlyobserver]

question - if it is a hung jury again, then third time around?
also: what the F$%# florida jury - this should be slam dunk conviction. what evil liar KM clearly is and what nonsense defense she had! And arrest Wendi already too!
another question: can sister be forced to testify against brother in trial in florida?

 

[trialfan]

That’s another thing. The prosecution got from the Dulce Vida tape that Charlie says he wants Katie to have the bump guy killed. If you read the transcript, it doesn’t read that way. Charlie talks a lot, so it’s hard to make sense of it, but what I took from it was he was saying that “bump guy,” if he’s a gang member, is aware that he’s dealing with “the king,” and that the king might conclude that he had better kill him or if he won’t, then get someone else. This is also where he’s saying it’s dangerous to blackmail someone who has done a murder. It reads like he‘s putting himself in the position of “ bump guy” when you put it in context, and saying ”bump guy” shouldnt mess with the king. Or at least it can read that way. It’s pretty unclear, he’s rambling. Charlie does this a lot, with his scenarios, there are a lot of pauses and tangents where he speaks as though he is someone else. But he isn’t just saying “you’d better have this guy killed,” out of nowhere. It’s in the context of the “bump guy” and what he must be thinking. The state has put a lot on their interpretation, but it’s by no means definite, and it’s less likely when you read the enhanced transcript. When you couldn’t hear very well, it does sound like Charlie is saying “kill him, or if he won’t, then get someone else,” and that is indeed what he is saying. But I don’t think he means that “bump guy” should be killed. That’s how I read it. I think the defense could have brought this out. But when Katie was asked about it, she just totally agrees with the prosecution’s interpretation. But there are a lot of words, a lot of babbling, before Charlie gets to “you’d better kill him,” and it’s by no means clear that he is ordering Katie to do that. The prosecution has enough, they don’t need to bring in stuff like this, or the bullet bourbon, whatever. It’s just a little too perfect that Charlie would actually order someone killed on tape like that. And he never mentions it again, he just keeps asking her to find out who it is.