FL - Dawn Brancheau, Female Trainer Killed at Shamu Stadium

[LovingTheChaos]

Our family of 5 is going to Orlando in June, & I emailed the company to let them know that we will not be going to Seaworld as planned. I can't in good conscience pay money to an organization that would keep Tilly confined. Seaworld is a corporation, they will only hear $$$ - so speak with your wallets - don't support them. Also, send them an email letting them know what you think:
http://www.seaworld.com/contactus.aspx

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Our family of 5 is going to Orlando in June, & I emailed the company to let them know that we will not be going to Seaworld as planned. I can't in good conscience pay money to an organization that would keep Tilly confined. Seaworld is a corporation, they will only hear $$$ - so speak with your wallets - don't support them. Also, send them an email letting them know what you think:
http://www.seaworld.com/contactus.aspx

And what do you want them to do with Tilly??

 

[jjenny]

He had NO business being in there in the first place!!!!! Thats just like the guy climbing into the lions den on christmas eve!! They had no business being in there!! It was after hours, Seaworld was closed!!!! People need to start taking responsibility, rather then blame the whales!!

And it was reported that the guy entered after hours and wanted to swim with the whales. It was on the news today. He had no business being in there!

I think it's rather pointless to debate the degree of whale's guilt because the whale isn't going on trial. Bottom line- he was involved in the killing of three people, and I bet he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

[LovingTheChaos]

And what do you want them to do with Tilly??

Free him.

 

[LovingTheChaos]

If they really cared for the well being of the whales, they would take Tilly, and all his females, & release them.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/27/rose.whale.keiko/index.html?iref=allsearch

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/26/velez.mitchell.killer.whale/index.html?iref=allsearch

 

[Penelope]

Free him.

I am beginning to come to the same conclusion. If you read the source that I cited in Post #60 on this thread, you will read about Tilly's life in captivity. Based on what I have learned from that source and from all of you, I have concluded the following (IMO):

• Tilly's was taken away from his pod when he was very young. Like humans, young whales stay with their pods (families) for years, maybe even their entire lives.
• Tilly's treatment as a young whale seems to have been abusive -- denied food, stimulus, space to swim.
• At one point he was actually going to be freed -- thus at one point the "authorities" felt that captivity was not the best for him.
• At SeaWorld, he is the alpha male and it sounds like his testosterone levels are high(!). I wouldn't be surprised if he does exhibit OCD behavior.
• He has been involved in 3 deaths -- 2 that he is probably directly responsible for (the trainers).
• For a whale, his life stinks (IMO)

Based on this information -- I would let him go free. He will either live or die-- but either way, if whales are as advanced as scientists say they are, he would probably want to take his chances.

Of course, I don't believe this will happen because he is the breeding male and cash cow for SeaWorld. They actually have developed a process where they excite him with the female orcas and then extract his semen and ship it all over the world to be used in breeding female orcas!

I have 2 Karelian Bear Dogs, a primitive breed of dog used for hunting. I sometimes let them out to roam the bush out in the country where I live. If something happened to one of them, I would be upset but would know that the dog died doing what it was meant to do. (They are quite non-agressive toward humans.) The point is -- I think it is better to let Tilly go free and give him a chance at freedom.

 

[Herding Cats]

After spending some time watching some videos of attacks by killer whales in the wild, I've satisfied myself that Dawn was not "attacked" in the sense of a killer whale attack.

These "transient" orcas can kill a great white shark; grey whales; seals; walruses; and other large species of marine mammals. They are ferocious in their attack, far more gruesome and violent than anything that was done to Dawn. If it had been an aggressive attack, there would have been far more damage done to Dawn, it seems to me, than what was done.

Other things I discovered last night is that there is a moritorium on capturing Orca from the wild (at least in the US, and I think Canada), which leaves breeding in captivity. Tilli is a bull orca, and a prolific breeder. Further, the Orca southern resident pod has been placed on the endangered species list.

There has been only one reunion of a calf into a pod that was not hers, a calf named Springer. Luna, another stranded/separated calf, was killed by a boat propeller when he returned to where people had been taking care of him.

In my opinion, Tilli will almost certainly die if released at his age; he is a transient from his birth pod, and would not survive in the wild. I would rather see him in his known environment and with known Orca as his pod, and not have trainers get into his tank (even in the shelf that Dawn was on, a mere 4 inches deep), than see him released to the wild.

Just my thoughts for this morning, and as always, just my opinion.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[jon_burrows]

I disclosed I don't have experience with cetacean biology, that my experience has been with horses, but that similar issues might exist, and certainly similar responsibilities exist. I have worked with some dangerous horses (one which killed a man), and have been pretty well taught to pay attention to my surroundings, my training methods, and be very aware of what the animal I'm working with is thinking, insofar as I can tell. Be assured that one can easily be killed working with horses...and at 1500-1800 pounds, they're not tiny, nor are they weak.

Further, if you bothered to actually read my response at 3:50 (just up-page a bit), you'll note several things I outlined which I don't believe that you can get in the wild...please review that, and consider it. You apparently haven't yet.




And lastly, there is not a need to get snarky with me, thank you very much. I hold a different opinion than you, but that doesn't make me a bad person. I shall give money to Sea World, as is my option. You don't have to, as is your option. Neither one is right or wrong; both are personal choices. And as I sit there in the stands, watching folks who do not have access to these (and other) beasts, and see their faces light with amazement and awe, I know that they see the animals as real, as living, sentient beings, and out of the thousands who see the show, who's to say the next conservationist is born? Who's to say that one person, after touching a dolphin, won't put into the trash the 6-pack plastic holder, now that they realize the animal may die because of their lack of thought?

Of course they make money. They're a business, and businesses do that (at least the successful ones). But unless you understand the positive impact Sea World has had on the ocean inhabitants, don't only look at the one-sided aspect of simple entertainment as bad.

Lastly, I am aware of Tillikum's history. He has been involved in two additional instances which were death-related; one as a trio who killed a female trainer, and one in which we're not exactly sure of what happened, other than a man, dressed only in his underpants, was found draped across Tilikum's back. I am also aware of which type of pod he came from, and know enough to understand that the differences in pod types may have made a huge difference in his behavior.

There is nothing 'natural' about many of the animal's lives that we keep in captivity, bred for that or not. It is not natural for dogs to live on sofas, nor cats on top of the entertainment center; snakes don't belong in aquariums, and cows in milking sheds; chickens in coops, and birds in cages. That's not "natural" either...and some would go so far as to say that humans in houses in inner cities is also not 'natural'.

If one chooses to work with a wild animal, they accept, understand, and undertake the responsibilities of that. If the trainer made the errors, then she made the errors...and that's just the way it is. It cost her her life, and that just sucks...but if she didn't remember the boundaries, didn't keep herself safe (as the video may show), I don't believe that the blame can go anywhere else.

As I stated previously, it's a controversial subject, to be sure. I'd appreciate it if you'd manage to keep it less personal, and discuss the subject, if you can. I do understand, however, the emotional position that you hold. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

Best-
Herding Cats

Just my opinion, as always.

It's hard to follow your logic when you state "we cannot get close enough to safely obtain a blood sample, let alone track an Orca over time to find out the normal value ranges for the species."

Killer whales have been taken from the wild since the 1970s. It defies all logic that humans can separate a whale from its pod, capture it, transport it, then buy and sell (more transporting) it safely but cannot take a blood sample. The only thing I can say is please read some research on whales in the wild or watch a documentary. Entire pods have been tracked for years and that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding research on whales in the wild. Scientists can distinguish each whale in the pod by their dorsel fin alone. Next time you're at SeaWorld take a look at their dorsel fin and compare it to one in the wild because the dorsel fins collapses in most males and some females in captivity. There are theories on why this deformity happens in captivity: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071118081532AAMD00j

It reaches the absurd comparing humans living in cities or domesticated animals to whales living in small tanks, swimming in circles, day after day, year after year. IMO

We've known the gestation period for whales for decades. Do we really need to keep breeding them in order to find out what we already know?

I think you're taking this way too personally. I'm sticking to the facts as best as I know them and I wish you would do the same.

 

[LovingTheChaos]

After spending some time watching some videos of attacks by killer whales in the wild, I've satisfied myself that Dawn was not "attacked" in the sense of a killer whale attack.

These "transient" orcas can kill a great white shark; grey whales; seals; walruses; and other large species of marine mammals. They are ferocious in their attack, far more gruesome and violent than anything that was done to Dawn. If it had been an aggressive attack, there would have been far more damage done to Dawn, it seems to me, than what was done.

Other things I discovered last night is that there is a moritorium on capturing Orca from the wild (at least in the US, and I think Canada), which leaves breeding in captivity. Tilli is a bull orca, and a prolific breeder. Further, the Orca southern resident pod has been placed on the endangered species list.

There has been only one reunion of a calf into a pod that was not hers, a calf named Springer. Luna, another stranded/separated calf, was killed by a boat propeller when he returned to where people had been taking care of him.

In my opinion, Tilli will almost certainly die if released at his age; he is a transient from his birth pod, and would not survive in the wild. I would rather see him in his known environment and with known Orca as his pod, and not have trainers get into his tank (even in the shelf that Dawn was on, a mere 4 inches deep), than see him released to the wild.

Just my thoughts for this morning, and as always, just my opinion.

Best-
Herding Cats

The ideal would be for him to go free, aka Kieko - there could also be a sea enclosure created for him, giving him more space to roam, in a more natural environment for an Orca (seriously, Central FL is not the ideal environment for a creature used to cold weather!). A land based confinement for an Orca is cruel & unnecessary. It serves only the corporate interest of Sea World.

 

[jon_burrows]

Just wanted to give you the source information about Tilikum's training regimen at Sealand of the Pacific in British Columbia.

Why was the Sea World Trainer Killed by Captive Orca Tilikum from Seattle City Brights Blog -- author Candace Calloway Whiting: Volunteer, Center for Whale Research at Friday Harbor.

In the blog article, the author gives some background history about Tilikum that says that following the death of the assistant trainer at Sealand in 1991, Tilikum was going to be set free until SeaWorld interfered and ended up taking him to the U.S.

The more I research, the more I realize that SeaWorld is more interested in making money off the entertainment provided by these beautiful animals than in their health and well being. It is such a shame that this had to happen when the whale could have been released.

Thanks for posting the article. I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[Herding Cats]

It's hard to follow your logic when you state "we cannot get close enough to safely obtain a blood sample, let alone track an Orca over time to find out the normal value ranges for the species."

Killer whales have been taken from the wild since the 1970s. It defies all logic that humans can separate a whale from its pod, capture it, transport it, then buy and sell (more transporting) it safely but cannot take a blood sample. The only thing I can say is please read some research on whales in the wild or watch a documentary. Entire pods have been tracked for years and that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding research on whales in the wild. Scientists can distinguish each whale in the pod by their dorsel fin alone. Next time you're at SeaWorld take a look at their dorsel fin and compare it to one in the wild because the dorsel fins collapses in most males and some females in captivity. There are theories on why this deformity happens in captivity: http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071118081532AAMD00j

It reaches the absurd comparing humans living in cities or domesticated animals to whales living in small tanks, swimming in circles, day after day, year after year. IMO

We've known the gestation period for whales for decades. Do we really need to keep breeding them in order to find out what we already know?

I think you're taking this way too personally. I'm sticking to the facts as best as I know them and I wish you would do the same.

I think, perhaps, you're set in your opinion, and no amount of information from me (or others) will ever make a dent in it. Which is fine, of course, because you get to have your opinion. If you don't see the value in scientific research, there's nothing *I* can do to change that. Instead, I just present a target for your angst and outrage.

Your comments "reaches the absurd" "defies all logic" and "hard to follow your logic" indicate to me that you're taking this to a personal level, and that is not something I care to participate in. To intimate that my opinion is not good enough, and to "watch a documentary" or "read a book" is, frankly, a bit insulting; for you don't know what I've done/read/watched, you only know that I hold a different opinion. As that opinion is different from yours, you make the assumption that I have not done any of those things, when you can't know what I've done or not done, other than my disclaimer that I am not a cetacean biologist.

So shall we simply say to each their own, and allow each other their opinion? I do not fault you for your opinion, although I disagree with it. I do not assume you're uneducated simply because you disagree with me; I'd appreciate the same consideration, if you're able to afford me that. (BTW, it's spelled dorsAl, not dorsel. But I'm sure you knew that.).

Best,
Herding Cats

 

[Muffet]

The ideal would be for him to go free, aka Kieko - there could also be a sea enclosure created for him, giving him more space to roam, in a more natural environment for an Orca (seriously, Central FL is not the ideal environment for a creature used to cold weather!). A land based confinement for an Orca is cruel & unnecessary. It serves only the corporate interest of Sea World.

[My bold] This would be my choice, if possible.

 

[jon_burrows]

[My bold] This would be my choice, if possible.

Mine too but he's worth way too much money to SeaWorld. IMO

 

[jjenny]

After spending some time watching some videos of attacks by killer whales in the wild, I've satisfied myself that Dawn was not "attacked" in the sense of a killer whale attack.

These "transient" orcas can kill a great white shark; grey whales; seals; walruses; and other large species of marine mammals. They are ferocious in their attack, far more gruesome and violent than anything that was done to Dawn. If it had been an aggressive attack, there would have been far more damage done to Dawn, it seems to me, than what was done.

Other things I discovered last night is that there is a moritorium on capturing Orca from the wild (at least in the US, and I think Canada), which leaves breeding in captivity. Tilli is a bull orca, and a prolific breeder. Further, the Orca southern resident pod has been placed on the endangered species list.

There has been only one reunion of a calf into a pod that was not hers, a calf named Springer. Luna, another stranded/separated calf, was killed by a boat propeller when he returned to where people had been taking care of him.

In my opinion, Tilli will almost certainly die if released at his age; he is a transient from his birth pod, and would not survive in the wild. I would rather see him in his known environment and with known Orca as his pod, and not have trainers get into his tank (even in the shelf that Dawn was on, a mere 4 inches deep), than see him released to the wild.

Just my thoughts for this morning, and as always, just my opinion.

Best-
Herding Cats

The woman is dead. What difference does it make if she were killed in a way that was less violent than if she were a shark? You can argue about less damage or more damage-but she is still just as dead.

 

[jon_burrows]

John_Burrows -- that you for posting those videos. The second one is particularly terrifying, although I can't for the life of me imagine why that woman would have wanted to ride on the back of that whale (in a bikini, no less).

I am not blaming the victim of Tilly the whale's "attack" (and may she RIP), but if some of the eye-witness stories are correct and the whale did grab her by the hair, I wonder why her hair wasn't tied back and under a cap instead of just in a ponytail. In a film clip I saw of her, she had beautiful, very long blonde hair which, even if tied back, would have resulted in a long, blonde ponytail. If the whale did grab her by the hair, maybe he though it was a toy, a prop, or food.

You're welcome. A few things I found interesting during the attacks:

- The male trainer made it to the side of the tank where the other trainers tried to pull him out. The whale intervened and pushed him back toward the middle of the tank. The youtube video doesn't show the whale biting his foot and dragging him under. He's lucky to be alive.

- The woman also made it to the side of the tank and the whale bit her leg, literally hanging on to her to by the leg. Luckily one of the trainers was able to get the whale to open his mouth but she had to get more than 100 stitches. There were two people in scuba gear in the pool with the woman. The whale never bothered them.

 

[jon_burrows]

The woman is dead. What difference does it make if she were killed in a way that was less violent than if she were a shark? You can argue about less damage or more damage-but she is still just as dead.

I haven't seen an official cause of death and we may never know the extent of her injuries. Did the whale hold her under until she died or did he crush her bones but you're right, what difference does it make?

 

[Melanie]

Our family of 5 is going to Orlando in June, & I emailed the company to let them know that we will not be going to Seaworld as planned. I can't in good conscience pay money to an organization that would keep Tilly confined. Seaworld is a corporation, they will only hear $$$ - so speak with your wallets - don't support them. Also, send them an email letting them know what you think:
http://www.seaworld.com/contactus.aspx

Thank you, I did. I also didn't realize there were so many whale sancturaries throughout the world. Even in Iceland.

 

[passionflower]

Tillie is one of the biggest in captivity .............HUGE and his space is little for his size.
I am wondering also if he was very sensitive and scared of what he was hearing or feeling as of the earthquake that came?????

 

[Kimberlyd125]

I know this is not the popular take on this but I have to say I LOVE Seaworld. I go to the one in San Antonio every chance I get. I've always wanted to go to the one in Orlando and may this summer.

This trainer also loved Seaworld and the animals she worked with. She knew the risks and worked there anyway because of the love she had for them. The trainers and the other park employees love the animals and care for them. They know them better than any of us ever will. So, if they thought the animals had proper care, who are we to say they don't.

As far as Seaworld only loving money, they are a company. Most companies are in it to make money. But, I believe Seaworld cares for these animals and their employees.

What about Disney? Are they wrong for having enclosed animals and Safari vans at Animal Kingdom? Animal Kingdom makes money.

Local zoos? They have animals, they make money.

Fish in an aquarium at your local seafood place. ???

JMO

 

[Herding Cats]

The woman is dead. What difference does it make if she were killed in a way that was less violent than if she were a shark? You can argue about less damage or more damage-but she is still just as dead.

You're right, of course, that dead is dead no matter how one gets there. The difference, to me, is intent. Did the whale intend to kill her? Or did he think he was playing? If it's the former, as I've heard some experts posit, then I would've expected the damage to be much greater; if it's the former, then the damage would be less.

At least to me, that factor matters; especially as he's transient rather than resident. Transients are known to be more aggressive - it's their built-in survival system. If Tillikum were "plotting/planning" to kill his trainer, I would expect the attack to have been far more aggressive than what it appears to be.

Dawn died doing what she loved, living a girlhood dream that took her years to achieve. And while yes, her death is an enormous loss, I don't blame SeaWorld for it, nor do I blame the orca - and nor do I blame Dawn. It was an accident, and a tragedy, but there is no blame to be laid (in my opinion).

Best-
Herding Cats