FL - FSU Law Professor Dan Markel Murdered by Hitmen *4 Guilty* #22

[Knitpicker]

MOO

This alone speaks volumes to me. Don't you think RA, CA & WA would have already taken anything from the house they wanted by then?

I get that her only sense of relevance or feeling needed comes from coordinating/ controlling her familys' lives, but that seems like something you would do for young children, not adult children.

DA must be beyond miserable now but I only feel sorry for those boys and how awkward this must all be for them especially as young teens. Life is awkward and conflicted enough at their age.

MOO

Older people save things that are value able to them and speaks of the past. She realizes that she is done imo. And never returning. Its a finality.

 

[IQuestion]

MOO

This alone speaks volumes to me. Don't you think RA, CA & WA would have already taken anything from the house they wanted by then?

I get that her only sense of relevance or feeling needed comes from coordinating/ controlling her familys' lives, but that seems like something you would do for young children, not adult children.

DA must be beyond miserable now but I only feel sorry for those boys and how awkward this must all be for them especially as young teens. Life is awkward and conflicted enough at their age.

MOO

Your sensitivity and insight speaks volumes. (You are great sleuth who has been here for over a decade. Always appreciate your posts.) Your comment made my eyes sting as I tried to hold back tears reading and thinking, "And how many peers these young teens have to interact with whose fathers were not murdered?" Young boys need good/mature father figures to help them on their path to adulthood. Peter Pan CA was no doubt "fun loving" buying Go-Karts (at age 40), fast boats/cars, gym enthusiast, steroid using/dealing and looking for chicas half his age...Alas, those are the characters we all have been imposed upon us because of family ties.
His affable public exterior belies what lurks below the surface...dark and cold. A human iceberg: Interesting to see from a distance, but best to steer clear.

 

[amicuscurie]

Your sensitivity and insight speaks volumes. (You are great sleuth who has been here for over a decade. Always appreciate your posts.) Your comment made my eyes sting as I tried to hold back tears reading and thinking, "And how many peers these young teens have to interact with whose fathers were not murdered?" Young boys need good/mature father figures to help them on their path to adulthood. Peter Pan CA was no doubt "fun loving" buying Go-Karts (at age 40), fast boats/cars, gym enthusiast, steroid using/dealing and looking for chicas half his age...Alas, those are the characters we all have been imposed upon us because of family ties.
His affable public exterior belies what lurks below the surface...dark and cold. A human iceberg: Interesting to see from a distance, but best to steer clear.

Honestly, there is still a ton of stuff from my childhood/school years at my parents’ house, because it’s the house I grew up in and I didn’t take it with me when I left. I just don’t have the room for all those old report cards, school projects, favorite toys, books, etc. In my opinion DA is a not a good person, but I wouldn’t read too much into her preparing boxes of this type of stuff for the kids. It’s possible they, like me, didn’t take that type of stuff with them when they moved out. Donna would probably only need to pack it up and organize it if she was selling the house. I know that’s what I am going to have to do if I have to sell my mom’s house one day.

 

[watergirl62]

Thanks for the kind words, IQuestion. I've been here since Caylee Anthony but take long breaks (brain bleach) as needed.

If the go-karts were for the boys I have to give Peter Pan some credit for that one. Were they?

He's definitely money-centric like his dah with their rapidly-shrinking investment portfolios which is all fine by me when legit, but it seems to me that little sister was always their biggest unrealized investment strategy - staging her in that (South Pointe?) condo like a Siren to lure a rich husband. <insert visual of the Bar Mitzvah dress here lol> Have we heard her sing?

 

[amicuscurie]

Thanks for the kind words, IQuestion. I've been here since Caylee Anthony but take long breaks (brain bleach) as needed.

If the go-karts were for the boys I have to give Peter Pan some credit for that one. Were they?

He's definitely money-centric like his dah with their rapidly-shrinking investment portfolios which is all fine by me when legit, but it seems to me that little sister was always their biggest unrealized investment strategy - staging her in that (South Pointe?) condo like a Siren to lure a rich husband. <insert visual of the Bar Mitzvah dress here lol> Have we heard her sing?

It doesnt seem to me, from Charlie’s phone calls to the go-cart place and to his mom, that the go- cart was for the boys, since he talks about driving it himself and doesn’t mention them. I believe the Continuum is a luxury building which might attract a wealthy clientele, and I believe that is where they originally stayed with Wendi after the murder. I believe this is the condo Wendi is referring to in her police interview when she says Charlie rented her parents a place, so they may have initially installed her there for the reasons you state.

BUT I have seen a video online of the place Wendi ended up renting and eventually buying, (per the video), which is very close to the Icon but a world away in terms of amenities/lifestyle. It appears to be a low-rise building of garden-style apartments around a central courtyard. I am familiar with the area, and this is not one of the opulent luxury high-rises for rich singles, it has a totally different vibe than what you think when you think “South Beach Condo.” It’s more of a family community because of the affordability, proximity to the school, and the range of floor plans available, some of which have 3 bedrooms. It has a pool and a gym, but no lobby or doorman or valet parking such as the more high-end buildings have. It’s not on the water and there’s no ocean view. It’s one of the most modest and affordable places in what is generally a high-end area, especially for families, as I believe you can get a place there for under one million (or you could in 2015).

It has always seem strange to me that she apparently chose to live in such a modest, family-oriented community instead of in a building like Icon or Continuum. It’s possible she could not afford the astronomical rents, or she may have preferred to be around other families for the boys to meet.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

Thanks for the kind words, IQuestion. I've been here since Caylee Anthony but take long breaks (brain bleach) as needed.

If the go-karts were for the boys I have to give Peter Pan some credit for that one. Were they?

He's definitely money-centric like his dah with their rapidly-shrinking investment portfolios which is all fine by me when legit, but it seems to me that little sister was always their biggest unrealized investment strategy - staging her in that (South Pointe?) condo like a Siren to lure a rich husband. <insert visual of the Bar Mitzvah dress here lol> Have we heard her sing?

Do we have an image of bar mitzvah dress? Wud love to see what’s *appropriate* to wear at an important religious event and party for pubescent boys.

 

[IQuestion]

It doesnt seem to me, from Charlie’s phone calls to the go-cart place and to his mom, that the go- cart was for the boys, since he talks about driving it himself and doesn’t mention them. I believe the Continuum is a luxury building which might attract a wealthy clientele, and I believe that is where they originally stayed with Wendi after the murder. I believe this is the condo Wendi is referring to in her police interview when she says Charlie rented her parents a place, so they may have initially installed her there for the reasons you state.

BUT I have seen a video online of the place Wendi ended up renting and eventually buying, (per the video), which is very close to the Icon but a world away in terms of amenities/lifestyle. It appears to be a low-rise building of garden-style apartments around a central courtyard. I am familiar with the area, and this is not one of the opulent luxury high-rises for rich singles, it has a totally different vibe than what you think when you think “South Beach Condo.” It’s more of a family community because of the affordability, proximity to the school, and the range of floor plans available, some of which have 3 bedrooms. It has a pool and a gym, but no lobby or doorman or valet parking such as the more high-end buildings have. It’s not on the water and there’s no ocean view. It’s one of the most modest and affordable places in what is generally a high-end area, especially for families, as I believe you can get a place there for under one million (or you could in 2015).

It has always seem strange to me that she apparently chose to live in such a modest, family-oriented community instead of in a building like Icon or Continuum. It’s possible she could not afford the astronomical rents, or she may have preferred to be around other families for the boys to meet.

Or, first step in distancing herself from the Triad? Living where she can afford on her own.

 

[amicuscurie]

Or, first step in distancing herself from the Triad? Living where she can afford on her own.

Excellent point!

 

[amicuscurie]

Do we have an image of bar mitzvah dress? Wud love to see what’s *appropriate* to wear at an important religious event and party for pubescent boys.

You’ve answered your own question. It’s a religious event taking place in a house of worship, and many of the guests will be adolescent boys. Dress accordingly. Those are some pretty easy to understand guidelines and there is no shortage of flattering outfits that meet them. It would not occur to me, personally, to look for something silky with a plunging neckline to wear to an event meeting that description.

 

[amicuscurie]

Or, first step in distancing herself from the Triad? Living where she can afford on her own.

I’ve been thinking more about this. In my opinion it seems like at some point perhaps recently, or at least sometime since the move to Miami, she has seemed to me to be distancing herself from her parents. Perhaps, as Donna herself remarks in the hot mic, she might no longer have needed to depend on them as much as the boys grew up and became more self-sufficient. I’ve also heard that the parents moved to an area about 25 minutes away by car sometime in 2021. If true, that’s always seemed strange to me, given that they had lived so close and helped so much.

I have heard Ruth say that Donna was a third party in the marriage. In my opinion it seems to me like her influence could have been extremely toxic and might have been the major reason the marriage failed. According to Epstein’s book, Donna lived with them in Tally for months after each child was born. To me, it seems like Donna was extremely manipulative and controlling and determined that she knew what was best, and perhaps believed that her dreams for Wendi were Wendi’s dreams as well. At some point, it’s possible Wendi may have realized this was not necessarily always the case.

Speaking hypothetically, when you grow up with a parent like that, it can be difficult even as an adult to resist their influence, to reject their moral framework, or to even believe that they might NOT know what is best for you. I’m not saying that Wendi did not want to leave Tallahassee, and I am not excusing any involvement she might have had in the murder, and I’m not saying she might not have had knowledge of the crime before it occurred. After all, once she had divorced Dan, which I believe was at Donna’s urging, to me it seems like she might have felt like her chances would be better to meet someone new in Miami.

But it appears to me from evidence presented at Charlie’s trial that Wendi was considering purchasing a house in Tallahassee until Charlie talked her out of it. It’s possible she may have had some disagreement with Donna about how she wanted to live her life, and she may have had a much more realistic impression of the prospects of her being allowed to relocate. It appears to me that she did not go along with Donna’s crazy schemes in the emails. It is possible she may not have been quite as unhinged as Donna appears to me to be in those emails, and she may not have wanted to move with quite the same desperation as Donna appears to me to have had. And she may have have been comfortable with the distance she had from Donna living so far away, and seeing her only when she came up there to help with the boys. It seems to me like it may have been Donna who got sick of the traveling she was required to do to see her grandchildren. I’ve always believed Donna was the driver of this crime, for that reason.

But still, the crime occurred, and it appears, in my opinion, that at the very least she knew the crime was going to happen and did not stop it. Why she went along with it, when she did not go along with the earlier schemes and seems to have somewhat accepted remaining in Tallahassee in the short term, fascinates me. It could be that she simply saw the chance to move and thought she would not be implicated and her family would take the fall for her. It could be that she viewed them as babysitters who were sick of driving seven hours to do the babysitting, and perhaps that is something they may have told her. All of these possibilities fascinate me.

This does not mean, necessarily, that she wanted to be completely attached and enmeshed with them once she got to South Florida.

 

[IQuestion]

Do we have an image of bar mitzvah dress? Wud love to see what’s *appropriate* to wear at an important religious event and party for pubescent boys.

Can't post the pic for you...But think of a bright red silky wrap dress with a plunging neckline. (Really plunging)
Ya' know the kind that makes the mother's of young males gasp, "Can you believe she wore that?" And the father's of young females say, "You're asking for the wrong kind of attention if you wear that."
IMO It was a lovely red dress but not appropriate for a situation in which one should be aware of decorum and modesty of others in attendance. Again IMO

 

[LetsSolvIt]

You’ve answered your own question. It’s a religious event taking place in a house of worship, and many of the guests will be adolescent boys. Dress accordingly. Those are some pretty easy to understand guidelines and there is no shortage of flattering outfits that meet them. It would not occur to me, personally, to look for something silky with a plunging neckline to wear to an event meeting that description.

I hope you detected my tongue in cheek! /\ /\ /\
————
My reply to @IQuestion: just as I suspected! \/ \/ \/

IQuestion said:

Can't post the pic for you...But think of a bright red silky wrap dress with a plunging neckline. (Really plunging)
Ya' know the kind that makes the mother's of young males gasp, "Can you believe she wore that?" And the father's of young females say, "You're asking for the wrong kind of attention if you wear that." <snipped>

OMO: My suspicion is that this family is all about a showy party, mom and grandma in extravagant “Neidmore Marcup” clothes, and less about an important faith journey and right of passage. MOO. Very sad.

 

[Luna20]

Or, first step in distancing herself from the Triad? Living where she can afford on her own.

It could be strategic thinking. She doesn’t want to send a message that implied that she was looking to get life insurance from her deceased husband.

Her image needs to appear as wholesome, relatable, a good mother and responsible with finances. An expensive luxury high rise with doorman can negate that.

 

[amicuscurie]

I hope you detected my tongue in cheek! /\ /\ /\
————
My reply to @IQuestion: just as I suspected! \/ \/ \/



OMO: My suspicion is that this family is all about a showy party, mom and grandma in extravagant “Neidmore Marcup” clothes, and less about an important faith journey and right of passage. MOO. Very

Somehow I doubt there could have been much of a showy party with Grandma and Uncle in jail.

In my opinion the dress was likely intended to do what it seems to have done, which is draw attention to its wearer, and the choice could possibly be interpreted by some as a reflection of general disregard for the feelings or wishes of anybody other than one’s self.

 

[watergirl62]

Or, first step in distancing herself from the Triad? Living where she can afford on her own.

Yes

It could be strategic thinking. She doesn’t want to send a message that implied that she was looking to get life insurance from her deceased husband.

Her image needs to appear as wholesome, relatable, a good mother and responsible with finances. An expensive luxury high rise with doorman can negate that.

Yes and yes.

She reminds me so much of a covert narc compulsive liar I lived with one upon a time.

The lies: amazing how they rolled off the tongue, but were only ever used to divert, dupe, and win the moment.

The motivation: always super secret and unknowable, until you recognize the ridiculous behavioural patterns.

The interaction: feels like you are playing a never ending game of Whack-a-mole. So exhausting.

 

[RickshawFan]

Older people save things that are value able to them and speaks of the past. She realizes that she is done imo. And never returning. Its a finality.

IMO that’s a stereotypical perspective on older folks, but not a particular one. Also, IME it’s not true any more.

However, it does strike me as DA wishfully thinking and trying to enforce family bonds.

She also wants to be seen as caretaking, when actually she is extremely controlling, and she’s sucking all the air out of the room. IMO this is classic Donna.

Same with the fuss over Harvey at the airport. It’s over-the-top caretaking gestures at a moment when she just lost control of her whole life.

 

[LetsSolvIt]

Somehow I doubt there could have been much of a showy party with Grandma and Uncle in jail.

In my opinion the dress was likely intended to do what it seems to have done, which is draw attention to its wearer, and the choice could possibly be interpreted by some as a reflection of general disregard for the feelings or wishes of anybody other than one’s self.

Guess I missed whose Bar M. this was. Thanks for clarification.

 

[Knitpicker]

IMO that’s a stereotypical perspective on older folks, but not a particular one. Also, IME it’s not true any more.

However, it does strike me as DA wishfully thinking and trying to enforce family bonds.

She also wants to be seen as caretaking, when actually she is extremely controlling, and she’s sucking all the air out of the room. IMO this is classic Donna.

Same with the fuss over Harvey at the airport. It’s over-the-top caretaking gestures at a moment when she just lost control of her whole life.

Well, I guess I’m speaking of experience in my own life, and my own mother. When she died I found things she saved all her life that were meaningful to her but meant nothing to me.
I had to decide what to save and it was hard to throw things out,
Like her HS yearbook, and pressed flowers from her graduation..wedding souvenirs and such.
And stuff she saved from when I was a baby.
My point was that what is important to someone, may be meaningless to another.

 

[Knitpicker]

It’s particularly curious, the bit about her making the boxes for the sale of the house in 2016, given that in July of 2014, LaCasse says he was on the phone with Wendi when she was in South Florida, and she told him she was cleaning out her old room.

Some people want to say that the family moved out of the home a year before they sold it for some reason.
It could be that Wendi moved into the rental and her parents still spent half the week at the family home, since Harvey was working half a week at that time.
BUT…the house was sold in 8/2015 so it must be things saved after they sold.
Do you remembered Donna talking about her friend who seemed to be a hoarder who had a storage place for her stuff?
A 2 BR condo can’t hold stuff. Maybe it was in storage.

 

[amicuscurie]

<modsnip - quoted post was not an approved source>

MOD NOTE: Below is about Wendi

In my opinion it’s entirely possible that the idea for the murder, and plan, could have been initiated without her knowledge. In other words, it’s possible Charlie and Donna came up with the idea and Charlie started talking to Katie about finding someone to do it, all without informing Wendi that this was in discussion.

However, I believe she had to have been informed at some point, and at the very least prior to the second attempt, especially given that evidence shows she send a text to Dan - while with her family in South Florida - asking if he was going to be home on the day of the murder, and she has given many contradictory and changing explanations for some of her behavior that day, both during her interview and later at the three trials. JMO.