FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #12

[JnRyan]

Jen's car is obviously very important to her disappearance but how it fits in is still very much a part of the mystery.

It is not that rare for someone to be abducted in their own vehicle. The abductor generally establishes control with a weapon and has the victim drive. The victim has the option of getting into an accident, attracting attention of a patrolman or just fleeing the car. An older, more savvy victim would be more likely to do this. Why didn't Jennifer (if that is what happened)? An abductee might be expected to take the abductor where he told her if she was satisfied that he would not hurt her if she obeyed. The abductor would probably try to reassure her of that but I would think, for that ploy to work, he would have to either very persuasive or Jen knew him.

The victim could be disabled and or restrained. You wouldn't expect that to occur at a public space where other people might see or hear it. It seems there were not many people around there at 7:30 but a woman's screams can travel quite a distance and there were other workmen around at that time. Whatever happened, whenever it happened, it seems to have been done quickly and quietly.

Two men could have done it. This is less common for a sex related crime and extremely unusual for a personal "relationship" crime but it can't be ruled out. The fact that the DVD was still seat belted in argues against it but doesn't exclude it.

There is the chance that the perpetrator's own car was used and Jen's was moved as some sort of staging but this seems extremely unlikely. There would be some tactical advantage to moving her car. It would be consistent with voluntary absence as opposed to Jen being missing from her apartment with her car still in its assigned space but, if the risk and effort to move the car was taken, it would have been done early, when there was less chance of being seen and no one was aware Jen was missing. One does not have to be a criminal genius to know that you do not want to be anywhere near the crime scene once people might be aware of the crime and paying attention to details. The perpetrator did not go back and move the car around noon.

Most likely, the perpetrator had Jen's car, that was used in her abduction, and as one detail of the process, he had to return to the Mosaic (to fetch his own car perhaps). He left it at HOTG because he didn't want to be seen with it anywhere near the crime scene and perhaps because he saw the advantage of delaying the finding of the car, but the primary reason for his actions was that he need transportation back to Mosaic.

One thing I have considered is that Jen's car was really unsuitable for transporting a dead body; particularly the size of Jennifer. I am not sure she would even fit in the trunk and a body in the back seat with the DVD box would be visible to people in other vehicles, particularly during periods of heavy urban traffic in daylight. In addition, dead bodies usually will discharge some body fluids. There were no indications of this in the car. Assuming she was murdered, she was either taken directly (while still alive) to where her body was disposed or she was later moved in a different vehicle. This would be different from the more typical sexual predator abduction where the victim is abducted from a place of opportunity, transported to a place the predator feels comfortable to do whatever he intends to do, then to the the dump site that serves his purpose.

There is the chance that Jen left in her car not under duress and she met her abductor after she had left the Mosaic (and was either abducted directly or consensually joined with the person who abducted her. For this scenario to work, we would have to explain why this abductor would need to return to the Mosaic at all

Yes, I can certainly see any of this. Again I go back to other crimes such Christina Morris' abduction where the abductor had walked into a parking garage (seen on video) and his car is on video leaving the garage. He and Christina walk in the entrance at 3:55 and his car leaves at 3:58. In 3 minutes they walk to their cars, he abducts her and puts Christina in the trunk of his Camaro (a trunk as small or smaller than Jennifer's), enters his car, starts it and leaves the garage in 3 minutes. A blitz attack doesn't take long for some abduction. An even more relevant case is Kelsey Smith who was abducted in a Target parking lot in Overland KS. The attack, captured on surveillance, was over in a few seconds and the abductor took her to an undeveloped location where he raped and murdered her.

This type of attack could have happened to Jennifer.

 

[htiff]

Yes, I can certainly see any of this. Again I go back to other crimes such Christina Morris' abduction where the abductor had walked into a parking garage (seen on video) and his car is on video leaving the garage. He and Christina walk in the entrance at 3:55 and his car leaves at 3:58. In 3 minutes they walk to their cars, he abducts her and puts Christina in the trunk of his Camaro (a trunk as small or smaller than Jennifer's), enters his car, starts it and leaves the garage in 3 minutes. A blitz attack doesn't take long for some abduction. An even more relevant case is Kelsey Smith who was abducted in a Target parking lot in Overland KS. The attack, captured on surveillance, was over in a few seconds and the abductor took her to an undeveloped location where he raped and murdered her.

This type of attack could have happened to Jennifer.

In the Christina Morris attack, wasn't her DNA found in his trunk?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cri...enrique-arochis-camaro-expert-testifies-trial

In this case, Jennifer's car reveals very little. Sometimes lack of evidence, can be evidence.

I can see Jennifer being subdued at gunpoint, given the evidence we have. But I don't see a violent attack happening in that car. So if the car was used in the abduction, she was forced to drive somewhere nearby.

But then what happened?

 

[htiff]

Very early on LE took scent hounds into a " heavily wooded area", a "densely wooded area" described as being located to the rear of the condo complex. The dogs did hit on JK's scent, but I never found anything beyond that report. I did note that the condo complex was only gated in the front...the part that faced the road. At the back of the condo it was all open. So, based on the dogs hitting there, I would believe that JK was taken into those woods. I do not know if cadaver dogs were taken to that area.

That's interesting. Was a search done there?

 

[rd_jfc]

Jennifer's apartment showed no signs of a struggle (and I trust her parent's take on this-they knew her habits); Jennifer's car (other than it being moved) showed no signs of a struggle or of being used to transport an injured or dead person. There was no blood, no scent of decomposition in that vehicle. There was also a large DVD player left in the back seat. And the car hadn't been driven far the day of the 24th.

So if the victim's apartment appears untouched, and her vehicle appears the same---are either of the two actually part of the crime itself?

Or is Jennifer's car moved for another reason?

I guess I'm not quite sure how you abduct a person and leave no trace unless everyone is looking in the wrong places.

This is an argument against a worker attacking and overpowering Jennifer and driving away with her, not to mention what the police and apparently others who claim the POI is about 5'4 tall. The whole thing is a ludicrous proposition, not to mention the height was based on judgement of distance through the gate, and the person they had out there imitating the POI was a police spokeswoman hunched over like the Hunchback of Notre Dame and taking giant goose steps. has to be the most ludicrous police re-enactment ever done. And we can pretty much guess how tall their police spokeswoman was.

The key on height is to compare the POI standing next to the palm tree in image 3. I went there, stood there, and I estimate the POI height as 5'9 to 5'11. I have seen a statement from Orlando Police a few years ago that they would not rule that out. It's several years too late. To be honest with you, I don't know who would be in position to see anything about this data now to recall anything. I guess we're just in confession before dying thing like in Tara's case.

This worker, who everyone thinks is this little strutting gangbanger, overpowers Jennifer and drives off with her. Well, folks, that's a hell of a crime scene, don't delude yourselves. What we have from the POI images is someone who's using law enforcement authority to abduct someone. There are or at least were unfortunately a lot of these types around. When I was researching this case in 2007 and doing my work on the images I documented three or four law enforcement impersonators in Florida alone that I stumbled across that year in my research.

Someone who has geared up for abducting a victim will be prepared to subdue and quiet a victim quickly. There will not be an overpower fight scene and victim thrashing about in a car.

Also, don't forget, Jennifer's bags and cases were disposed of and never found. I'm not sure if anything was left besides her DVD player. There would have been a gym bag in the trunk? There is no incentive whatsoever for a random worker to go through the car and dispose of anything she would carry, especially in this alleged four hour window of the worker abduction belief.

I think the purpose of getting rid of everything in her car is to create the uncertainty that Jennifer went off or was taken somewhere, and as I have focused on missing women for several years including Jennifer's disappearance this happened often. That uncertainty can keep the disappearance from even being considered a crime for a lengthy period as I wrote about in Chandra Levy's disappearance in Murder on a Horse Trail.

This has the hallmarks of a prepared attacker, from being prepared to abduct a random victim to stalking and abducting someone they knew. But it takes planning and preparation to commit this crime this cleanly.

 

[JnRyan]

In the Christina Morris attack, wasn't her DNA found in his trunk?

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cri...enrique-arochis-camaro-expert-testifies-trial

In this case, Jennifer's car reveals very little. Sometimes lack of evidence, can be evidence.

I can see Jennifer being subdued at gunpoint, given the evidence we have. But I don't see a violent attack happening in that car. So if the car was used in the abduction, she was forced to drive somewhere nearby.

But then what happened?

In Christina's case, I believe they stated she was severely injured and, in fact, her abductor may have used his car to move her after she was deceased. In Jennifer's case I don't believe her car was used to transport her after she was deceased. That is the reason I believe the crime scene of whatever ultimately happened to her happened outside the car. And she wasn't put back in afterward but left - probably buried - near the crime scene.

The Kelsey Smith case is probably a better analogy. Kelsey was abducted using her own car, taken to another spot where the crimes occurred and left there. The murderer then drove Kelsey's car to another shopping center or mall and made his way back to the Target and his pickup truck. Kelsey's murderer was a 26 yo stranger with no criminal history as an adult. He was married with a pre-school child at home.

 

[JnRyan]

This is an argument against a worker attacking and overpowering Jennifer and driving away with her, not to mention what the police and apparently others who claim the POI is about 5'4 tall. The whole thing is a ludicrous proposition, not to mention the height was based on judgement of distance through the gate, and the person they had out there imitating the POI was a police spokeswoman hunched over like the Hunchback of Notre Dame and taking giant goose steps. has to be the most ludicrous police re-enactment ever done. And we can pretty much guess how tall their police spokeswoman was.

The key on height is to compare the POI standing next to the palm tree in image 3. I went there, stood there, and I estimate the POI height as 5'9 to 5'11. I have seen a statement from Orlando Police a few years ago that they would not rule that out. It's several years too late. To be honest with you, I don't know who would be in position to see anything about this data now to recall anything. I guess we're just in confession before dying thing like in Tara's case.

This worker, who everyone thinks is this little strutting gangbanger, overpowers Jennifer and drives off with her. Well, folks, that's a hell of a crime scene, don't delude yourselves. What we have from the POI images is someone who's using law enforcement authority to abduct someone. There are or at least were unfortunately a lot of these types around. When I was researching this case in 2007 and doing my work on the images I documented three or four law enforcement impersonators in Florida alone that I stumbled across that year in my research.

Someone who has geared up for abducting a victim will be prepared to subdue and quiet a victim quickly. There will not be an overpower fight scene and victim thrashing about in a car.

Also, don't forget, Jennifer's bags and cases were disposed of and never found. I'm not sure if anything was left besides her DVD player. There would have been a gym bag in the trunk? There is no incentive whatsoever for a random worker to go through the car and dispose of anything she would carry, especially in this alleged four hour window of the worker abduction belief.

I think the purpose of getting rid of everything in her car is to create the uncertainty that Jennifer went off or was taken somewhere, and as I have focused on missing women for several years including Jennifer's disappearance this happened often. That uncertainty can keep the disappearance from even being considered a crime for a lengthy period as I wrote about in Chandra Levy's disappearance in Murder on a Horse Trail.

This has the hallmarks of a prepared attacker, from being prepared to abduct a random victim to stalking and abducting someone they knew. But it takes planning and preparation to commit this crime this cleanly.

I am hoping the podcast revisit's the calculation of the POI's height. I never did agree with the 5'3"-5'4" height of the POI.

 

[htiff]

Is it possible that the reason neither Jennifer's car or apartment indicated a struggle, was that neither was involved in the commission of this crime, and Jennifer's car was not moved until calls came into Mosaic from worried family?

The only way this crime could have been "planned" is if the abductor/s knew Jennifer was back. The only way they would have known this, is if they saw her car and lights on Monday night. The only way they would have seen this, is if they were in the apartment complex that Monday night.

Who would have had the easiest access to roam that complex at night?

The abductor doesn't have to be a worker, they can be a tenant.

I wonder if too much emphasis is being placed on the POI, and not enough on what Jennifer's car and apartment seem to be indicating.

 

[liz b.]

That's interesting. Was a search done there?

It is mentioned at the beginning of the threads here on WS. A news report. I think the search came as a result of a tip, if so, it is possible that JK screamed, or made a noise while in the woods. I think she may have been killed there, but jmo. I believe when LE did search in that area they found nothing. Only that the scent dog alerted there.

 

[liz b.]

Is it possible that the reason neither Jennifer's car or apartment indicated a struggle, was that neither was involved in the commission of this crime, and Jennifer's car was not moved until calls came into Mosaic from worried family?

The only way this crime could have been "planned" is if the abductor/s knew Jennifer was back. The only way they would have known this, is if they saw her car and lights on Monday night. The only way they would have seen this, is if they were in the apartment complex that Monday night.

Who would have had the easiest access to roam that complex at night?

The abductor doesn't have to be a worker, they can be a tenant.

I wonder if too much emphasis is being placed on the POI, and not enough on what Jennifer's car and apartment seem to be indicating.

But several of the workers were never questioned, because they had left the area after the crime.

 

[htiff]

But several of the workers were never questioned, because they had left the area after the crime.

If many of the workers at Mosaic were undocumented (and there was some indication this was the case) they might not have wanted tell authorities what they saw because this would put them in jeopardy of deportation.

(A lot of workers were reported to have left Mosaic soon after Jennifer's disappearance. They may have had nothing to do with the crime, but may have feared the repercussions of dealing with law enforcement.)

The most likely witness to what happened would be the gardeners who arrived early in the morning that day, and according to one report at least, worked the area in front of Jennifer's unit. But again, if they were undocumented or had family who were undocumented, they may have been afraid to say anything.

I think the image of the POI is too general to be easily identified. But the time he abandons Jennifer's car, and the fact that he appears to return to Mosaic, seem crucial.

Unless Jennifer is abducted to one of the nearby complexes--say across the way from where she lived, she had to have been harmed at Mosaic. It's the only thing that makes sense, when placed in the context of all the rest of the evidence.

That outdoor area you mention seems like a possibility. I don't know much about that, but could be.

 

[marable]

A coworker would have known Jennifers schedule ....

I know that OPD said that the camera at the HOTG was off an hour, is it possible that it was off 12 hrs ? As we know or have been lead to believe , OPD was not exactly thorough in their investigative efforts....I am asking this because I have infrared game cams up at home and the nighttime pictures look so much like the video of the POI....

 

[marable]

Is it possible that the reason neither Jennifer's car or apartment indicated a struggle, was that neither was involved in the commission of this crime, and Jennifer's car was not moved until calls came into Mosaic from worried family?

The only way this crime could have been "planned" is if the abductor/s knew Jennifer was back. The only way they would have known this, is if they saw her car and lights on Monday night. The only way they would have seen this, is if they were in the apartment complex that Monday night.

Who would have had the easiest access to roam that complex at night?

The abductor doesn't have to be a worker, they can be a tenant.

I wonder if too much emphasis is being placed on the POI, and not enough on what Jennifer's car and apartment seem to be indicating.

I listened to an interview by Drew where he discussed how Jennifer was a "car slob"....Apparently her car contained lots of different items.....She used the trunk to store things ....He even stated that even with the fingerprint dust all over the inside of Jennifer's car it was still cleaner than she kept it....He even referenced OPD logging and checking each and every item in her car....What I am getting at is, perhaps there was not room enough in the trunk to hide Jennifer to haul her someplace and perhaps the POI was not comfortable enough to transport her in the front or back seat....

Was there more than one suspect involved?

 

[liz b.]

If many of the workers at Mosaic were undocumented (and there was some indication this was the case) they might not have wanted tell authorities what they saw because this would put them in jeopardy of deportation.

(A lot of workers were reported to have left Mosaic soon after Jennifer's disappearance. They may have had nothing to do with the crime, but may have feared the repercussions of dealing with law enforcement.)

The most likely witness to what happened would be the gardeners who arrived early in the morning that day, and according to one report at least, worked the area in front of Jennifer's unit. But again, if they were undocumented or had family who were undocumented, they may have been afraid to say anything.

I think the image of the POI is too general to be easily identified. But the time he abandons Jennifer's car, and the fact that he appears to return to Mosaic, seem crucial.

Unless Jennifer is abducted to one of the nearby complexes--say across the way from where she lived, she had to have been harmed at Mosaic. It's the only thing that makes sense, when placed in the context of all the rest of the evidence.

That outdoor area you mention seems like a possibility. I don't know much about that, but could be.

Interesting. I saw that JK did honors Spanish in HS...I have thought that she was familiar with her abductor in some way. I mean that she may have been used to seeing him. The language might have played a role (assuming that her abductor was Spanish speaking)...or he was one of the workers who did work in her unit. jmo.

 

[rd_jfc]

I'm looking for a different quote, but I just saw the news article decribinig release of video and it says:
"[Her car] is seen backing into a parking space..." (Orlando Sentinel May 18, 2007)

There was a discussion on this not long ago. When I tried to look at the video back in 2007 it was too dark for me to see anything so I don't have anything to add on it, but thought that reporting was interesting.

 

[TedMac]

Yes. Sounds about right. But wherever Jennifer was taken, if it was in her car, they didn't go far (according to the gas usage of her vehicle). So are you thinking that the abductors go to the Mosaic on foot? Abduct Jennifer the morning of the 24th (even though she hadn't been home since the 19th) Then drive Jennifer's car to a nearby location. Then dump Jennifer's car at HOTG, and then use another vehicle to transport her body---somewhere...

Jennifer's car showed no indications of having been used to transport a dead girl. She had to have been gotten rid of at some point, and it doesn't appear to have been by way of her car.

This case feels a little like a rubics cube---colors line up on one side, but then there are the colors you still have to line up on the other, and to do so you have to shift your thinking around a little.

BBM Yes, I think he dumped the car where it was found and walked back to the Mosaic.

She may have been alive when she was transported to the location she is now-possibly killed there.

 

[rd_jfc]

After posting that I decided to see if I could take another look at the video and see if I could see anything better now.
I found a copy of the video that I could play at:
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=498_1179526582

With everything much better these days I can see the video now about as well as can be expected.

The headlights of the car are seen as it pulls in, backs up, and pulls in again. Don't know how the reporting could have got that wrong.
Might have garbled somebody's description of the the car backing up and pulling in again as backed in.

At 12:59:43 CAM2 time POI emerges from car. I'm going to lower my estimate of POI height based on height compared to car versus the palm tree. It looks more like me standing next to the car, I'm 5'7. I would lower POI height estimate to 5'7 to 5'8 from 5'9 to 5'11 now that I've seen POI standing next to car.

The whiteness of the clothing as seen in the video is disconcerting. Even though I know it's infrared doing it it's difficult to mentally picture in darker clothes. I did think of something that should be done. I have through the years asked for the make, model, and settings of the gate camera so that I could test what kind of clothes show up as what. Well clearly after eleven years no one wants to give out that info.

But something better just occurred to me. The police had to go through at least a day's worth of surveillance of both cameras to find the POI images. They would have seen several people walking by gate for example. They would have been able to see whether POI clothes were abnormally light compared to others, I mean most people wouldn't be wearing all white. And they would know whether POI looked like most other people or was one of very few to be in very light colored clothing.

I would certainly hope that the surveillance tapes that were reviewed to get these images werent discarded. This could be done even now and have a very good determination if POI was wearing white clothes while others looked normal darker colors than all white.

I did some very rough resizing and contrast adjustments to make out the POI figure better. Standing next to the car the POI is a solid build, not thin, not heavy. There is dark shading around his middle. This is not well defined like a belt but just a general wider dark shading around the middle.

Head and dark above head are visible. He extends his right arm and the arm is all white just like rest of his clothes. To me it is clear he is wearing a long sleeved shirt. It looks like a band of darkness around his wrist area.

Next image that I stopped on was at 12:59:44. Here his back is much darker. It looks to me like he slung a backpack type device over his back from :43 to :44 (image seconds are not very accurate as we saw with gate POI images). I have noted that equipment on his back in image 2 of gate images and it looks like he did sling that over his back when he got out of the car.

 

[Mosby10]

I think an important part of the video is the POI's feet. To me, it clearly looks like they are wearing nice dress shoes/loafers. As someone who has worked both blue and white collar jobs, I don't think any of the construction workers would have been wearing those shoes. I don't know if that helps much, but I don't think one of the construction workers moved the car, which makes it less likely they were involved.

 

[rd_jfc]

I think an important part of the video is the POI's feet. To me, it clearly looks like they are wearing nice dress shoes/loafers. As someone who has worked both blue and white collar jobs, I don't think any of the construction workers would have been wearing those shoes. I don't know if that helps much, but I don't think one of the construction workers moved the car, which makes it less likely they were involved.

Every observation helps, thanks. If someone has a chance to look at those shoes closeup, they are covered with bubble patterns which I recognize as similar to athletic shoes I've had in the past. He also appears to be wearing athletic socks.

 

[PURSUIT OF JUSTICE]

I know that the clothing colours are possibly incorrect but the top right picture in that link is very close ?

Mark.

yes. this is the reason why I think whatever happened to Jennifer Kesse was gang related, maybe even biker gangs or less known gangs, you never know. I dunno, im probably wrong cause usually you find out later we were all completely off, but with that picture alone if i had to size them up, they are gang/biker related.

see other example

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/60/43/fd/6043fd7c415fa6e50eb67198df8222af.jpg

people still use this setup till today, but they don't wear their pants as low, that's more 90's baggie style where they allow the material to scrape and rip the pants when touching the rough pavement, now they put them up and even fold them some times, almost like a swashbuckling pirate, especially with shoes like that.

 

[Rust Cohle]

This is an argument against a worker attacking and overpowering Jennifer and driving away with her, not to mention what the police and apparently others who claim the POI is about 5'4 tall. The whole thing is a ludicrous proposition, not to mention the height was based on judgement of distance through the gate, and the person they had out there imitating the POI was a police spokeswoman hunched over like the Hunchback of Notre Dame and taking giant goose steps. has to be the most ludicrous police re-enactment ever done. And we can pretty much guess how tall their police spokeswoman was.

The key on height is to compare the POI standing next to the palm tree in image 3. I went there, stood there, and I estimate the POI height as 5'9 to 5'11. I have seen a statement from Orlando Police a few years ago that they would not rule that out. It's several years too late. To be honest with you, I don't know who would be in position to see anything about this data now to recall anything. I guess we're just in confession before dying thing like in Tara's case.

This worker, who everyone thinks is this little strutting gangbanger, overpowers Jennifer and drives off with her. Well, folks, that's a hell of a crime scene, don't delude yourselves. What we have from the POI images is someone who's using law enforcement authority to abduct someone. There are or at least were unfortunately a lot of these types around. When I was researching this case in 2007 and doing my work on the images I documented three or four law enforcement impersonators in Florida alone that I stumbled across that year in my research.

Someone who has geared up for abducting a victim will be prepared to subdue and quiet a victim quickly. There will not be an overpower fight scene and victim thrashing about in a car.

Also, don't forget, Jennifer's bags and cases were disposed of and never found. I'm not sure if anything was left besides her DVD player. There would have been a gym bag in the trunk? There is no incentive whatsoever for a random worker to go through the car and dispose of anything she would carry, especially in this alleged four hour window of the worker abduction belief.

I think the purpose of getting rid of everything in her car is to create the uncertainty that Jennifer went off or was taken somewhere, and as I have focused on missing women for several years including Jennifer's disappearance this happened often. That uncertainty can keep the disappearance from even being considered a crime for a lengthy period as I wrote about in Chandra Levy's disappearance in Murder on a Horse Trail.

This has the hallmarks of a prepared attacker, from being prepared to abduct a random victim to stalking and abducting someone they knew. But it takes planning and preparation to commit this crime this cleanly.

With all this preparation, and disguise, why park the car at high noon, broad daylight in a lower income housing complex where people are likely to be home during those hours? POI clearly wasn't familiar with the complex..It doesn't make sense to me that it was planned, I believe it was opportunistic or someone running on emotions and spent either the majority of the night or morning freaking out.