Markybug
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Stupid question, but why just the first 2 weeks? Anything in particular, or just the freshest ?
FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #12
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Stupid question, but why just the first 2 weeks? Anything in particular, or just the freshest ?
rd_jfc
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IMO, much more important than any tips is what exactly has been determined these last 12 years, other than what the police have stated in news accounts or have already told the Kesses.
If the raw tips is all there is, so be it.
Truth Prevails
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You know, I wondered about that myself. One thing I noted from the Breadcrumbs episode of Unconcluded was that after the first two weeks, LE was down to psychics tips.
But whether Mr. Kesse believes there may have been a tip or tips not properly followed up on, or whether he believes the tips most likely to lead to Jennifer's physical whereabouts would have occurred during the first two week time period is something I'm puzzled over, really.
Or maybe it's for an entirely different reason that I'm missing by a mile--I wish I knew.
TW--not stupid at all. imo
There are a couple of things that come to my mind for this.
I read where Jenn and one of her female friends went out for a drink the evening before Jenn left for her trip--maybe it was that?
The other one I read about (but really have less details regarding the actual date)--Jenn went out for a drink with Matt not long before her vacation. I'm just sayin'--don't want to start a suspect discussion.
It's interesting your mention of receipts--do you know of any others?
Truth Prevails
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So, so true. I was only hoping that if the two sides could meet on what one side might be willing to give and the other side might be willing to accept, Mr. & Mrs. Kesse wouldn't have to get mired down in that expensive law suit.
Honestly, I think just the raw tips themselves would give a very minimal chance at finding what Mr. Kesse wants. But maybe he knows some things we don't, and thinks the answer lies within a tip that law enforcement is withholding.
I hope it works for him; indeed, I pray it does.
I think Jennifer deserves more. I want justice in a court of law. The person responsible should have to pay a steep price here on earth.
Also, I think LE has more than just raw tips. Quite a bit more, actually.
Markybug
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You know, I wondered about that myself. One thing I noted from the Breadcrumbs episode of Unconcluded was that after the first two weeks, LE was down to psychics tips.
But whether Mr. Kesse believes there may have been a tip or tips not properly followed up on, or whether he believes the tips most likely to lead to Jennifer's physical whereabouts would have occurred during the first two week time period is something I'm puzzled over, really.
Or maybe it's for an entirely different reason that I'm missing by a mile--I wish I knew.
TW--not stupid at all. imo
There are a couple of things that come to my mind for this.
I read where Jenn and one of her female friends went out for a drink the evening before Jenn left for her trip--maybe it was that?
The other one I read about (but really have less details regarding the actual date)--Jenn went out for a drink with Matt not long before her vacation. I'm just sayin'--don't want to start a suspect discussion.
It's interesting your mention of receipts--do you know of any others?
It was just a random post on jenns site , not specific. Havent read for sure they who / where or when. Your two mentions are news to me ! Anything to read into it?
geojeffrey
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Truth Prevails
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Nah, I don't think so.
Receipts are always interesting because you an get a date, time and place from them, so they can really help with a timeline.
I don't see anything that really connects here, though.
Truth Prevails
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BBM - I went back and grabbed this comment again because this line interests me.
Here is a real quick timeline and I will use MSM links to support it.
Snipped quote: Clarke testified Wednesday in the attempted-murder case against James Hataway, who is charged with attacking her in August 2008 near his home in Fern Park.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...10330_1_james-hataway-hataway-home-karen-lowe
Snipped quote: According to surveillance camera footage, then 27-year-old Ocasio went missing after leaving the Florida Taproom Bar in Orlando May 26, 2009, with James Hataway.
https://www.orangeobserver.com/article/ocoee-police-continue-search-for-8-year-missing-person-case
________________________________________
Okay, so we have a significant event in 2008 and one in 2009. But notice he was known to both these woman--enough that one had given him a ride home from a house party while the other had left a bar with him.
Now regarding Jennifer, we have this from the Unconcluded podcast:
At about 11:59 minutes in:
Snipped transcript, Shaun: I also asked Jennifer’s roommate who lived with her at Metrowest about the Tap Room specifically, and she said: I quote: “We went to the Tap Room a few times to my knowledge; but not frequently. And, at least, not when I lived with her. And I really don’t remember much about it.”
https://audioboom.com/posts/6247903-the-eraser
_______________________________________
(I duuno. Does anyone find that intentionally vague, or is it just me?)
Anyway, I don't know what to make of this. I do see some commonality, but gut instinct--nope. Jennifer was too cautious.
Besides the strange stuff mentioned in the articles, there is one more thing interesting about this guy. (The link doesn't work any more.)
Snipped quote: Eyewitness News learned more about James Hataway. The 28-year-old lived with his father in Ocoee. He also worked with his father dredging ponds.
http://www.wftv.com/news/19648776/detail.html
It is. I admit that. But look at only Michelle Parker and Tracy Ocasio. The geographical locations there are striking, also; but there is no connection between the suspected perpetrators.
Finding the perpetrator is (as we are well aware) is proving to be extremely difficult.
So why not work backwards?
After whatever has happened here where is Jennifer right at this moment? Where could she have been placed?
It is possible the tiniest clue could be found that will lead to the person who abducted her.
Her car never travelled far from Mosaic and it is doubtful Jennifer did either.
Not only did Jennifer vanish but all the possessions with her went as well. Car keys, jewellery, phones......the lot.
Where is Jennifer?
So why not work backwards?
After whatever has happened here where is Jennifer right at this moment? Where could she have been placed?
It is possible the tiniest clue could be found that will lead to the person who abducted her.
Her car never travelled far from Mosaic and it is doubtful Jennifer did either.
Not only did Jennifer vanish but all the possessions with her went as well. Car keys, jewellery, phones......the lot.
Where is Jennifer?
rd_jfc
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I remember commenting at time, couldn't be a more chilling profession imo concerning vanished remains. Well I guess we can always hold out hope for locked in a bunker somewhere, but nevertheless that was chilling when I read it at the time, Truth.
I never considered that Jennifer willingly accompanied him anywhere at any time, or even that she knew him personally. But he may have been aware of her, may have stalked her.
The odds of multiple women vanishing from that little town as isolated incidents aren't good in my opinion.
However, it's just one more consideration in everything being considered.
rd_jfc
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I give a small chance to a stranger hiding a body in a dumpster and just happens the body is undetected and buried in landfill. (If there is even trash landfills for Orlando. From a case here in Jacksonville several years ago that I am only familiar with through newspaper articles at the time, trash was hauled to Georgia for a landfill.
However, someone in pond dredging business would be quite familiar with all the possibilities and have a high possibility of success at getting remains buried undetected in my opinion. And I think unless we are able to get some idea about this POI that there is little to go on from a determining where Jennifer is front.
Wish I could be more positive.
Without figuring details, I buy into the ~10:40ish final ping. Nobody has contradicted this, even if there are no official sources. It would seem to fit a timeline (i.e. on the phone with her bf around 10pm, and now we know there may have been a knock on her door at that time). No sign of morning cellular activity, and statistically/theoretically speaking, a nightime abduction seems most likely to me (independent of evidence).
Given that, I think the apartment complex sighting might be more important than given credit for. That witness heard a woman scream, saw a woman who may have resembled Jen with I think two men, and it turns out that she had shown an apartment to a woman named Jennifer Kesse I think the week before. This supposedly happened in between 11 and 12 I believe - but the witness may have gotten the time wrong. It's hard to know for sure if this witness saw what she thinks she saw, but this sighting fits a realistic timeline and the witness has not seeked attention.
If true? I've seen people presume that if Jen was looking for an apartment, she must have felt uncomfortable at her residence. I would be more inclined to ask why she was looking for an apartment at that particular complex - did she know someone who lived there? Or, was she looking for an apartment as a favor for someone else who lived out of town? I mean, she owned a condo and probably had friends she could stay with in a pinch, why sign a lease?
Random thoughts: JC sounds like he was a narcissistic ******* who had thought highly of Jen - that makes him a convenient suspect not a good suspect in lieu of evidence that doesn't seem to exist - it doesn't even necessarily make him a narcissist let alone a murderer and he is not described as acting out of character following her disappearance. If her towel was draped over a washer or drier - it may have come out of the washing machine and would have taken longer to dry. Lastly, one thing I feel for sure about the POI, is that he is wearing a watch on his right hand. I can't be the only one who sees this; its a small detail but a distinctive feature.
I've noted two of these earlier in this thread or another - but here are some possibly similar cases I am currently aware of...
Laura Houghteling - the perp killed her in her bedroom late on a Sunday night, cleaned up, dressed up as his victim (complete with clothing handbag and wig), left the house Monday morning at the same time his victim usually left the house for work. He did not take her car - but his victim typically took public transportation to work. Initially, LE assumed it was a morning abduction, in part because the house was clean, in part because her handbag and briefcase were missing and what not, and in part because a neighbor's housekeeper had seen the victim leaving her house (she actually saw the perp dressed up as the victim).
In this case, the perp had kind of been a handiman around her home (i.e. connected to her home), was familiar enough with her routine to stage a morning abduction somewhat credibly, but not familiar enough or otherwise detail oriented enough to get away with it. I guess it's also worth noting that the perp was familiar to the victim's family, and the victim's family was initially critical of LE for investigatging the perp because they didn't think he was capable of such an act and they thought he was being bullied.
Denise O'Neill - abducted by next door neighbor at apartment complex, killed in neighbor's apartment, neighbor and accomplices used the victim's car to dispose of her body, they went on a little joyride after, and the car was later returned to an apartment complex across the street from the victim's apartment complex. In this case, I believe the car was used partially to keep evidence outside of the perps' cars, and also to present the appearance that the victim had been abducted away from her apartment. The victim's family instantly knew she had not been the last to drive her car, because it was left way messier than she would have left it. Robbery was a motive here and the perps were not very intelligent.
Juli Busken - abducted in her own car after returning to her apartment complex around 5am. Perp drove to a remote location, killed her, and then later abandoned her car at an apartment complex nearby the victim's apartment complex. Perp turned out to live within a nearby radius, but he was not a neighbor and the nature of the crime seems random. He may have relied on his victim's car for transportation. In this case, there were neighbors who heard a scream and there were witnesses who didn't necessarily realize what they witnessed until the story broke.
Ingrid Lyne - killed and dismembered at her residence by a romantic interest after a date. Perp almost cleaned up all signs of a crime inside her residence, and took her car to dispose of her body parts, eventually abandoning the car in town. Perp was potentially very drunk and must have known ahead of time he would be suspected; under different circumstances he could have theoretically gotten away with the crime. I think the victim's car was used more than anything else, simply as a means of transportation.
Given that, I think the apartment complex sighting might be more important than given credit for. That witness heard a woman scream, saw a woman who may have resembled Jen with I think two men, and it turns out that she had shown an apartment to a woman named Jennifer Kesse I think the week before. This supposedly happened in between 11 and 12 I believe - but the witness may have gotten the time wrong. It's hard to know for sure if this witness saw what she thinks she saw, but this sighting fits a realistic timeline and the witness has not seeked attention.
If true? I've seen people presume that if Jen was looking for an apartment, she must have felt uncomfortable at her residence. I would be more inclined to ask why she was looking for an apartment at that particular complex - did she know someone who lived there? Or, was she looking for an apartment as a favor for someone else who lived out of town? I mean, she owned a condo and probably had friends she could stay with in a pinch, why sign a lease?
Random thoughts: JC sounds like he was a narcissistic ******* who had thought highly of Jen - that makes him a convenient suspect not a good suspect in lieu of evidence that doesn't seem to exist - it doesn't even necessarily make him a narcissist let alone a murderer and he is not described as acting out of character following her disappearance. If her towel was draped over a washer or drier - it may have come out of the washing machine and would have taken longer to dry. Lastly, one thing I feel for sure about the POI, is that he is wearing a watch on his right hand. I can't be the only one who sees this; its a small detail but a distinctive feature.
I've noted two of these earlier in this thread or another - but here are some possibly similar cases I am currently aware of...
Laura Houghteling - the perp killed her in her bedroom late on a Sunday night, cleaned up, dressed up as his victim (complete with clothing handbag and wig), left the house Monday morning at the same time his victim usually left the house for work. He did not take her car - but his victim typically took public transportation to work. Initially, LE assumed it was a morning abduction, in part because the house was clean, in part because her handbag and briefcase were missing and what not, and in part because a neighbor's housekeeper had seen the victim leaving her house (she actually saw the perp dressed up as the victim).
In this case, the perp had kind of been a handiman around her home (i.e. connected to her home), was familiar enough with her routine to stage a morning abduction somewhat credibly, but not familiar enough or otherwise detail oriented enough to get away with it. I guess it's also worth noting that the perp was familiar to the victim's family, and the victim's family was initially critical of LE for investigatging the perp because they didn't think he was capable of such an act and they thought he was being bullied.
Denise O'Neill - abducted by next door neighbor at apartment complex, killed in neighbor's apartment, neighbor and accomplices used the victim's car to dispose of her body, they went on a little joyride after, and the car was later returned to an apartment complex across the street from the victim's apartment complex. In this case, I believe the car was used partially to keep evidence outside of the perps' cars, and also to present the appearance that the victim had been abducted away from her apartment. The victim's family instantly knew she had not been the last to drive her car, because it was left way messier than she would have left it. Robbery was a motive here and the perps were not very intelligent.
Juli Busken - abducted in her own car after returning to her apartment complex around 5am. Perp drove to a remote location, killed her, and then later abandoned her car at an apartment complex nearby the victim's apartment complex. Perp turned out to live within a nearby radius, but he was not a neighbor and the nature of the crime seems random. He may have relied on his victim's car for transportation. In this case, there were neighbors who heard a scream and there were witnesses who didn't necessarily realize what they witnessed until the story broke.
Ingrid Lyne - killed and dismembered at her residence by a romantic interest after a date. Perp almost cleaned up all signs of a crime inside her residence, and took her car to dispose of her body parts, eventually abandoning the car in town. Perp was potentially very drunk and must have known ahead of time he would be suspected; under different circumstances he could have theoretically gotten away with the crime. I think the victim's car was used more than anything else, simply as a means of transportation.
Markybug
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Interesting post , i have never gave much credence to someone staging the flat , but these examples are interesting. Wouldn’t take much guessing to simulate a average working woman’s morning routine? Bathroom, makeup , clothes laid out etc?
rd_jfc
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I can only say that Jennifer had just acquired a mortgage, her first home, and it is inconcievable that she was looking at apartments. Getting rid of her mortgage either through some legal challenge or selling her condo would take months and be a real challenge. Plus as one would expect she was proud of having acquired a home early in her career.
Whatever is thought she might be, it wasn't willingly doing something like that.
Whatever is thought she might be, it wasn't willingly doing something like that.
Has anyone ever given thought of Jennifer being on the property of the abductor?
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Truth Prevails
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Mr. Kesse has said he has reviewed a ping study requested by law enforcement. Law enforcement sat down with Mr. Kesse and reviewed it with him. Mr. Kesse said they showed him 11 pings.
It is from this ping study that the time of the final event, or final ping, comes. However, they never mention "final ping"; they always mention "final pings" and refer to both phones going silent at the same general time. Mr. Kesse has recently expanded the time to between 10:20 pm and 10:40 pm.
Both phones going silent at nearly the same time is one of the few points of discussion on which both Mr. and Mrs. Kesse have remained consistent. Mrs. Kesse has said that she has never been given a specific time for the occurrence of both phones going silent, but that they did. Mr. Kesse has given us the time.
Yes, indeed, the pinging followed by the final event from each phone fits with a nighttime abduction.
It's so very unpromising that Mr. Kesse thinks it's all crap.
I believe she was never able to produce the document that she said Jennifer signed--is that correct?
Also, I think there are two separate podcasts with different women who thought they saw someone who could have been Jennifer with a man or men on the night of the 23rd.
I think these women believe what they saw, but, personally, I find it so vague.
I'll link the two episodes, just for source value. I haven't listened to them, myself, in a while, and maybe I should review them, too.
https://audioboom.com/posts/6006799-roundabout
https://audioboom.com/posts/6201436-breadcrumbs (around about the 31:00 minute mark)
I think the "Fabrications" episode of Unconcluded made some interesting points about this.
Good point about the towel. Regarding the watch, due to the quality of the video, I consider myself lucky to make out a body.
Thank you for taking the time to point out these cases. Some of them I've heard of, but some of them I haven't. It's certainly interesting to look at all the different scenarios people are able to come up with to commit these horrible crimes.
Truth Prevails
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To make it accurate, and therefore believable, it might. Where Jennifer lived alone, though, it would be hard to confirm exactly where she kept everything. And she had just returned from a vacation, and hadn't unpacked much.
Truth Prevails
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I apologize for repeating what you have already heard. However, I wanted to source it. When I first heard it, I was unsure if it was just something coming from Facebook that could have been said by someone with a personal grudge, or if there may have been more of an element of truth to it. I thought the direct quote from the MSM link--even though it no longer works--gave it some credibility so I added it. I can't possibly be the only one who likes a source.
From the little I know of his mo, though--it doesn't seem like he stalks women. He seems to pick them up in bars or at house parties--more on a whim, whoever is convenient. It could be that in 2006 he was still developing his mo--who knows?
I know you aren't calling Orlando a little town, so that leaves Ocoee. Tracy is on video leaving the bar in Orlando with Hataway. Yes, he lived in Ocoee and Tracy's car was found very near his residence.
Jennifer's only connection to Ocoee was her place of employment.
Where Jennifer lived previously before moving to her condo in Nov. 2006 was in Orlando. The bar where she may or may not have met Hataway was in Orlando.
Michelle Parker--all events that I know of occurred in Orlando.
rd_jfc
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It was many years ago I read that and commented, Truth. I probably wouldn't have been able to cite his employment had the question been asked without looking it up, and it is certainly something to be aware of. You can't point out valuable information like that too much.
By "little town" in the context of metro Orlando I mean one of the locally identifiable areas that's relatively small. I assume that Ocoee is not identifiable as a separate town but runs contiguously from surrounding towns. I've spent some time there visiting over the years and a town in metro Orlando is just another sign that says the locality name changed. It just all runs together.
My thought was that in addition to Jennifer's workplace was that the bar and her previous apartment was relatively close to Ocoee. Now if only Hataway's family home and her employment was in Ocoee, and her previous apartment and the bar was some distance away (not as far as Millenia Mall but somewhere between there and Ocoee) then it wouldn't be correct to say multiple women vanishing from Ocoee. My thoughts that it was all close enough to have links to each other as local. If not, thanks for point that out.
Your maps are very helpful, and I haven't looked closely at that last one with locations flagged. It all seemed pretty close to me, and I think made an excellent point.
thanks Truth.
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