FL - Jennifer Kesse, 24, Orlando, 24 Jan 2006 - #12

[Truth Prevails]

You may be overthinking things. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Either she was lured out of her apartment by someone she knew or someone posing as an authority figure, or she went out to her car to get something (or maybe to put the friend's phone in the car so she wouldn't forget to take it to work in the morning) and was abducted from the parking lot.

There were no signs of violence inside her apartment, so I don't think she was abducted from there unless someone lay in wait and then chloroformed her before she had a chance to resist.

Bolding by me. Yes, I do agree.

A couple of things: To bring in the DVD player is another reason she could have went out to her car. Or perhaps to do both--put the friend's phone in the car so she wouldn't forget it and bring in the DVD player.

Also, I came across a case the other day where a couple had strangled a woman inside her/their apartment--she had sub-let it to them and had gone at a prearranged time to collect past due rent. He came up from behind her and put a bag over her head to accomplish his evil deed. There were no signs of a struggle in the apartment.

I'm not saying anything like that happened in Jennifer's case, but only mentioning it as an example that it may be possible to really harm someone but leave no obvious trace at the scene. And, of course, we all know no forensic examination was done on Jennifer's condo.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I agree. That's why I said it was a wrinkle. On the other hand, a bigger wrinkle that she was wearing heels and carrying something with the friend's phone in it when involuntarily departing her condo.

I'm not familiar with 2006 era US Post Office shipping overnight with pickup ala FedEx and UPS and paid for with postage, and how one would know what postage it takes and obtain it and apply it.

I know Post Office has competitive offerings in more recent years but not aware how that would work in 2006.
Is that viable as the way Jennifer would handle overnighting the phone from work in 2006?

Bolding by me: Well now, I'm old as dirt, so what do I know?

However, in my opinion, high heels and nice tight jeans look very, very nice on a lovely, tall, long-legged female. It used to be considered a great casual/dressy look. Times change, I guess.

Also, if her heels were handy she could have just slipped them on intending to put her sandals on once she reached her car. (There were at least two pairs in there). This assumes the leaving was voluntary and my assumption (for the moment) is that she was accompanied by someone she both knew well and trusted.

But for a purse/bag--what was she carrying her stuff in? Whatever she used for work that day most likely--LE might have her on some surveillance cameras from work earlier in the day so they could have a description? Wishful thinking?

Regarding the postage topic--LE seized her laptop so they would know if she printed postage on the 23rd. I doubt it though, she was only in her condo for about three/three and a half hours. She had about a 2 hour conversation with one of her long time girlfriends and she talked to Travis; both in whatever order before calling Rob to say good night. There is also some indication that she may have even talked to others.

We know she at least changed out of her work clothes at some point and sorted her mail, putting the junk in the trash and neatly stacking the rest. Her luggage from vacation was left in her front hallway, maybe with sections opened and a few things removed.

There was no evidence that she ate anything, so she possibly stopped for take-out before getting home which would subtract from the three-three and a half hours at her condo.

There is just nothing pointing to the fact that any effort was made to package and add postage to the friend's cell phone.

 

[Questions123]

With her Nine west shoes missing we can't rule out that they were left in the car to wear the next day at work and were stolen. New shoes can require breaking in perhaps it was more comfortable for her to wear sandals like found in her car to and from her apartment going p stairs etc. The perpertrator could have taken them deliberately for a trophy or gave them to a partner as a gift as they new.

Travis's phone missing would be less confusing if we know where the phone was left either in the car as a reminder to post the next day or in her apartment.

That bedroom photo with the clothes laid out on the bed looks like no one ever slept in that bed and if the clothes are found exactly like shown nobody would sleep on a bed with clothes piled on top.

Perhaps she changed out of the night clothes that were found to answer a knock at the door (possibly the neighbour returned) and she didn't want to answer in her nightwear particularly if the neighbour or person knocking is male.

 

[Markybug]

As a young woman, that's what I would have done. I wouldn't go out at night to ship a phone especially if I was leery of the area in which I lived.

If she used the phone as an alarm, how did she wake up that morning then? Wasn't the phone off since 10:40 pm?

Good point , IF the phones are off at night, then she would surely sleep in and be late , but the gardeners said her car was gone as per usual?

 

[flgrl017]

I agree. That's why I said it was a wrinkle. On the other hand, a bigger wrinkle that she was wearing heels and carrying something with the friend's phone in it when involuntarily departing her condo.

I'm not familiar with 2006 era US Post Office shipping overnight with pickup ala FedEx and UPS and paid for with postage, and how one would know what postage it takes and obtain it and apply it.

I know Post Office has competitive offerings in more recent years but not aware how that would work in 2006.
Is that viable as the way Jennifer would handle overnighting the phone from work in 2006?

I can't speak for 2006, but I can go back to 2007. I started ebaying that year and shipped everything from home. Usps is the same now as it was then (just the price has increased). I would assume her company did a lot of overnight shipping so they would have the correct packaging in the office. If that was the case she would just have to prepare the package, print a label, and give it to whoever receives the deliveries. This is something I could do in less than 5 minutes if I had the right envelopes.

 

[flgrl017]

Good point , IF the phones are off at night, then she would surely sleep in and be late , but the gardeners said her car was gone as per usual?

Yep if the phone was her alarm it wouldn't have gone off that morning if the phone was off. If she used the old type of alarm that plugs into the wall someone would have had to turn it off or it would have been beeping when the apt manager checked on her condo.

 

[shelly111]

It would give you an idea of when it was last used.

And if it dries to less damp than they found it in less than 8 hours, which is very likely, what conclusion do they and we draw then?

It can shows he came in the morning few hours before the kesses artived. around 900 or 100 am. He was not afraid to be seen ,if he worked in the mosaic it's not suspicious if he did work in jennifer's buildimg or near it .
He staged the apt to look like jennifer left for work. a usual day .

 

[Truth Prevails]

Good point , IF the phones are off at night, then she would surely sleep in and be late , but the gardeners said her car was gone as per usual?

BBM - ]Mr. Kesse said at 7:30 am, every Tuesday morning--like clockwork--a group of at least 5 lawn care workers arrived to work Jennifer's building. He said that on Tuesday, Jan. 23, they did not see Jenn or her vehicle. Mr. Kesse said Jennifer always left for work between 7:30 am and 8:00 am. (Mrs. Kesse has put Jennifer leaving as late as 8:15 am occasionally).

But it sounds like Mr. Kesse talked to the lawn care workers himself and they assured him they didn't see his daughter or her vehicle that Tuesday morning.

 

[rd_jfc]

I can't speak for 2006, but I can go back to 2007. I started ebaying that year and shipped everything from home. Usps is the same now as it was then (just the price has increased). I would assume her company did a lot of overnight shipping so they would have the correct packaging in the office. If that was the case she would just have to prepare the package, print a label, and give it to whoever receives the deliveries. This is something I could do in less than 5 minutes if I had the right envelopes.

Emphasis is on the overnight from work. That requires the Post Office in 2006 to either have pickups like FedEx and UPS do or to have the wherewithall to know that Post Office pickup would sort and route overnight packages quicker than other mail.

It also would require being able to determine what postsage was required for this overnight delivery, how to obtain it and apply it at work.

I didn't have that wherewithall in 2006 and earlier. I am aware of the emphasis that Post Office has put on competitive services in recent years, I am aware of more online interaction being available, but I don't know how how I would have known if possible and what would be required in 2006 and I don't know how Jennifer would have known any more about it.

My criteria is, did Jennifer overnight anything before and how did she do it? Did she mail stuff home and have a feel for how quickly that was handled, how much postage was required, how she obtained it and applied it, and possibly performed same action with knowledge Post Office would have it there "in a day or two".

We're still left with the indication that Jennifer was overpowered within minutes after saying good night to her boy friend and the two phones, her wallet, and keys went with her. The only thing different about the day she disappeared is that she had a phone left in her condo that she needed to get back to owner in a day or two. She routinely travelled from S. Florida back to Orlando after a weekend, as often as every other week, so that was not different.

The two phones disabled together so soon after her last phone call, with pings indicating movement, is a swift non-intrusive extrication in her own car that somehow brought both phones along that were systematically found and disabled as soon as away from the scene of abduction, or a random assault of a woman who had left her home with both phones with a systematic search and disablement of those phones in her car.

The abductor acted like an experienced abductor in either case.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Emphasis is on the overnight from work. That requires the Post Office in 2006 to either have pickups like FedEx and UPS do or to have the wherewithall to know that Post Office pickup would sort and route overnight packages quicker than other mail.

It also would require being able to determine what postsage was required for this overnight delivery, how to obtain it and apply it at work.

I didn't have that wherewithall in 2006 and earlier. I am aware of the emphasis that Post Office has put on competitive services in recent years, I am aware of more online interaction being available, but I don't know how how I would have known if possible and what would be required in 2006 and I don't know how Jennifer would have known any more about it.

My criteria is, did Jennifer overnight anything before and how did she do it? Did she mail stuff home and have a feel for how quickly that was handled, how much postage was required, how she obtained it and applied it, and possibly performed same action with knowledge Post Office would have it there "in a day or two".

Comment snipped by me to address this part first; (2nd part in my next comment). Fingers crossed that you don't mind.

Below is a transcript I did of Mrs. Kesse discussing her thoughts on Jenn getting the cell phone returned to Travis. Despite my regret in having to add the link, I keep in mind it is Mrs. Kesse speaking directly; so, in her own words.

I'm not sure it will help, but I'm going to bold a tiny part of it. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm okay with that; but I wonder if she means that both FedEx and UPS had booths at Jennifer's place of employment where employees were welcome to stand in line--say on their breaks or allotted lunch time--to arrange shipping any personal parcels.

Anyway, here it is:

@ about 12:15 Mrs. Kesse: When cell phone towers—and again, 11 years ago, the technology has improved. They might not do it the way they did 11 years ago. But if a cell phone tower was being taken down, for any reason, like a temporary—say a temporary glitch in technology—then what happens is the signals then ping to another cell phone tower.

Initially, the two detectives thought that Jennifer was taken that night. They thought that Jennifer—Jennifer.

These two gumshoe detectives thought that Jennifer would have gone out after ten o’clock at night to take Logan’s friend’s phone to a UPS or a FedEx mail envelope place at ten o’clock at night. We kept trying to tell them there is no way in hell.

She works where they have FedEx and UPS right on site, and that’s what she had told Logan’s friend that she was going to do. There is no way that she would have gotten off the phone at ten o’clock at night with Rob and then decided: “Oh, gee. Travis needs his phone really bad. Let me go drive around and try to find a place that I could FedEx the phone.”

Jennifer was too smart, Sean. She knew that it wouldn’t make any difference if she did it at night or in the morning, #1.

And #2, personal safety was something that Jenn was very much aware of most of her teenage and early adult life. So there is just no way. And the frustration that we had is that the law enforcement kept focusing on that: that the time of the crime, if you will, occurred in the evening; that—after ten o’clock at night, that night. I mean, there is just no way.
https://audioboom.com/posts/5969731-endpoints

 

[Truth Prevails]

We're still left with the indication that Jennifer was overpowered within minutes after saying good night to her boy friend and the two phones, her wallet, and keys went with her. The only thing different about the day she disappeared is that she had a phone left in her condo that she needed to get back to owner in a day or two. She routinely travelled from S. Florida back to Orlando after a weekend, as often as every other week, so that was not different.

Now addressing second part.

There are a couple of things here: 1) I'm not sure her wallet went with her. Her Florida driver's license and purse are listed specifically. If "purse" includes purse and contents, i.e. her wallet, why would they then separately itemize her driver's license?

I'm pretty sure you are right, but it just bothers me how that is listed.

And 2) I wonder if it's worth considering that the DVD player is also different about that night. I have a little partial theory: We're aware that Rob says they had a slight disagreement during that last, brief phone conversation on the 23rd. Now, Rob says it was a normal disagreement like any couple have from time to time. So, to me, that kind of rules out the heavy stuff like are they both ready for the big leap of living together and which one is going to have to uproot themselves to make that happen.

Once I exclude those topics, I'm find I'm left with the DVD player. Do you suppose he asked her if she brought it in and when she said she hadn't maybe they both decided they were tired and needed to keep things short?

I consider something like that a normal disagreement. But it also leads me to speculate that after she got off the phone, she may have decided that she would run out to her car to bring it up. (So she could tell him in the morning she had brought it up and it was safely inside her condo--end of disagreement).

While running out to her car for the DVD player she may have decided to bring the friend's cell phone along to leave in the car so it wouldn't be forgotten in the morning, (thanks to the person who mentioned that possibility).

Regarding her driver's license and her own cell phone: maybe she had a rule she lived by--we all do, really--that included never going outside her door without ID, thus her driver's license tucked in a pocket; and I think plenty has been said about simply taking her cell phone, always charged, with her everywhere. She obviously believed it afforded her protection.

The two phones disabled together so soon after her last phone call, with pings indicating movement, is a swift non-intrusive extrication in her own car that somehow brought both phones along that were systematically found and disabled as soon as away from the scene of abduction, or a random assault of a woman who had left her home with both phones with a systematic search and disablement of those phones in her car.

Yeah. Either/or. Exactly. All the speculation of all of us who believe in an evening abduction leads to one of these two theories.

The abductor acted like an experienced abductor in either case.

I'm with you on this, too. But it's a tuffy for me. If I consider that Jennifer would only leave her apartment after 10 pm with someone who she both knew well and trusted; then I do realize that that person would have to be her abductor.

So, that leaves me with a technology aware person who was extremely capable of laying out and executing an evil plan which most likely included a level of stalking. And Jennifer knew him well and trusted him.

I hate that it could be that way, but maybe.

 

[rd_jfc]

Comment snipped by me to address this part first; (2nd part in my next comment). Fingers crossed that you don't mind.

Below is a transcript I did of Mrs. Kesse discussing her thoughts on Jenn getting the cell phone returned to Travis. Despite my regret in having to add the link, I keep in mind it is Mrs. Kesse speaking directly; so, in her own words.

I'm not sure it will help, but I'm going to bold a tiny part of it. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm okay with that; but I wonder if she means that both FedEx and UPS had booths at Jennifer's place of employment where employees were welcome to stand in line--say on their breaks or allotted lunch time--to arrange shipping any personal parcels.

Anyway, here it is:

@ about 12:15 Mrs. Kesse: When cell phone towers—and again, 11 years ago, the technology has improved. They might not do it the way they did 11 years ago. But if a cell phone tower was being taken down, for any reason, like a temporary—say a temporary glitch in technology—then what happens is the signals then ping to another cell phone tower.

Initially, the two detectives thought that Jennifer was taken that night. They thought that Jennifer—Jennifer.

These two gumshoe detectives thought that Jennifer would have gone out after ten o’clock at night to take Logan’s friend’s phone to a UPS or a FedEx mail envelope place at ten o’clock at night. We kept trying to tell them there is no way in hell.

She works where they have FedEx and UPS right on site, and that’s what she had told Logan’s friend that she was going to do. There is no way that she would have gotten off the phone at ten o’clock at night with Rob and then decided: “Oh, gee. Travis needs his phone really bad. Let me go drive around and try to find a place that I could FedEx the phone.”

Jennifer was too smart, Sean. She knew that it wouldn’t make any difference if she did it at night or in the morning, #1.

And #2, personal safety was something that Jenn was very much aware of most of her teenage and early adult life. So there is just no way. And the frustration that we had is that the law enforcement kept focusing on that: that the time of the crime, if you will, occurred in the evening; that—after ten o’clock at night, that night. I mean, there is just no way.
https://audioboom.com/posts/5969731-endpoints

This really good info, Truth. Thanks. It's also helpful imo to snip out parts of a response and focus the answer on that. Obviously someone at some point in time has felt a partial quote was taken out of context where only the entire post provides the necessary context in their opinion, but also someone could with ill intentions deliberately quote something out of context. So I see why some people could be hung up on it, I actually prefer to have as little as necessary quoted for context. Which is done very well here.

I believe the bolded means that FedEx and UPS work closely with the company in making pickups and deliveries, which doesn't mean much of anything because FedEx and UPS work closely with many businesses in making pickups and deliveries. In other words, it's a typical business.

Now if she or anyone provided details that addresses the kind of questions I pose, then we could get somewhere concerning how she was going to get the cell phone back to the friend. But she hasn't and no one else has. She's just stating her opinion that she doesn't think Jennifer would try to get it shipped that night after 10 pm. It's a widely held opinion, but just an opinion.

Addressing any details of how Jennifer would do that from work is what's actually required to put that issue to rest, and it would be helpful to have an understanding of Jennifer's mindset that would preclude a necessity to get that phone off as soon as possible to free her from having to deal with it later.

I do agree with the comments on the original police comments about driving around looking for a box to put the package in. You have to have an account to ship it on, a label with all that info on it, and a standard shipping envelope or package suitable for a cell phone before you can drop it in a box.

The police like everyone else have not offered any details on what goes into their thinking. If there were any details in their thinking.

 

[rd_jfc]

I just looked up Westgate Resorts on Google Map and also FedEx locations in Ocoee. I thought there might be heavy business retail in same location but there isn't.

 

[rd_jfc]

Truth, regarding the DVD player (why a DVD player instead of CD player?), are you saying it was routine for Jennifer to bring in the player every night versus say put it in trunk or under the seat and do anything at all with it?

Were there speakers or a headset used, how did that work?

thanks

 

[Truth Prevails]

I just looked up Westgate Resorts on Google Map and also FedEx locations in Ocoee. I thought there might be heavy business retail in same location but there isn't.

I know next to nothing about the type of business Jennifer worked for, but I watched that movie Greta mentioned in her special. So from that, I know that it was particularly hard hit in the 2009 recession.

That makes me wonder if some locations might have changed on a current Google map. Just a possibility, though.

Truth, regarding the DVD player (why a DVD player instead of CD player?), are you saying it was routine for Jennifer to bring in the player every night versus say put it in trunk or under the seat and do anything at all with it?

Were there speakers or a headset used, how did that work?

thanks

Ohhh, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing. I didn't think it belonged in the car at all.

I thought it was the type of player that a person would hook-up to their television to put a CD in so they could watch a movie. It had belonged to Rob and he said it was almost new. I thought he strapped it in Jennifer's backseat via seat belts so it wouldn't fall on the floor or get damaged during the drive, but once she arrived with it in Orlando, it would need to be brought into her condo.

I thought it was something Rob probably intended to hook-up for her (to her television in her condo) on the next weekend he arrived for his weekend visit (as they alternated weekend visits).

I didn't even think it was usable inside a car.

So, yikes, I better scrap my thinking on that.

 

[rd_jfc]

I know next to nothing about the type of business Jennifer worked for, but I watched that movie Greta mentioned in her special. So from that, I know that it was particularly hard hit in the 2009 recession.

That makes me wonder if some locations might have changed on a current Google map. Just a possibility, though.


Ohhh, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing. I didn't think it belonged in the car at all.

I thought it was the type of player that a person would hook-up to their television to put a CD in so they could watch a movie. It had belonged to Rob and he said it was almost new. I thought he strapped it in Jennifer's backseat via seat belts so it wouldn't fall on the floor or get damaged during the drive, but once she arrived with it in Orlando, it would need to be brought into her condo.

I thought it was something Rob probably intended to hook-up for her (to her television in her condo) on the next weekend he arrived for his weekend visit (as they alternated weekend visits).

I didn't even think it was usable inside a car.

So, yikes, I better scrap my thinking on that.

No, no, no, it's me that doesn't understand. I've heard this DVD player referred to since the beginning as still in the car and I thought it was something kept in the car to play CD's or something form DVD's, had no idea.

So this was something that bf sent with her on Monday for her condo? So this would be something else she might have gone out to the car for, especially after just talking to Rob? Holy cow.

She may very well have taken the friend's cell phone out with her as you were saying in an earlier post. If indeed there was the thing about having a drivers license in her pocket for ID then that's one explanation. It's also possible the abductor rendered her unconscious and went in and got a purse that would have ID for the car and her and it had the friend's cell phone in it.

I think the odds are very high that after talking to her bf she went out to her car to get something he sent with her. He might have said something about it getting stolen overnight. He of course would know that.

I didn't know what kind of environment her employment was in but when I looked at Google Map I routinely look at Street Map. It is a standalone building with Westgate Resorts sign out front. Not the sort of thing you establish in hard times. Very nice building, not an urban environment with business retail around it.

Sorry for giving you a scare about the DVD player! That really changes things. I can't imagine why that hasn't been suggestion number 1 from the beginning as to what happened to Jennifer.

 

[Markybug]

Interesting, would be handy to know if the DVD player was mentioned in the last call in any shape or form?

 

[Truth Prevails]

Interesting, would be handy to know if the DVD player was mentioned in the last call in any shape or form?

There is not one scintilla of evidence suggesting so.

I want to be perfectly clear because I don't want the discussion here to turn into a place where speculation is accepted as fact as is what happens on the Facebook discussion group for the podcast.

All that has ever been said about the DVD player is that Rob strapped it in the backseat--and in most places it is said that Jennifer, herself, strapped it in the backseat on the Sunday night they returned to Ft. Lauderdale from St. Croix.

It was still strapped in the backseat when the car was found at the HOG. I'm a little confused about the following--but I think it was still strapped in the backseat when the car was returned to the Kesses. (I don't see how that's possible, though).

Early on in the case law enforcement did make specific mention of the DVD player being something that stood out in some way. I wish I would have paid more attention to how exactly they worded that.

I'm rushed for time right now, but I'll look around later to see what I can find in linkable form. (And that may be nothing, but I'll still look).

 

[rd_jfc]

There is not one scintilla of evidence suggesting so.

I want to be perfectly clear because I don't want the discussion here to turn into a place where speculation is accepted as fact as is what happens on the Facebook discussion group for the podcast.

All that has ever been said about the DVD player is that Rob strapped it in the backseat--and in most places it is said that Jennifer, herself, strapped it in the backseat on the Sunday night they returned to Ft. Lauderdale from St. Croix.

It was still strapped in the backseat when the car was found at the HOG. I'm a little confused about the following--but I think it was still strapped in the backseat when the car was returned to the Kesses. (I don't see how that's possible, though).

Early on in the case law enforcement did make specific mention of the DVD player being something that stood out in some way. I wish I would have paid more attention to how exactly they worded that.

I'm rushed for time right now, but I'll look around later to see what I can find in linkable form. (And that may be nothing, but I'll still look).

well the main thing is whether it was something that was kept in the car all the time or something brought from one home to the other.

I thought it was odd that it was called a DVD player for something kept in the car, but didn't pursue questioning about it. I thought it stayed there all the time, and was for playing music.

When something sounds odd, there's a reason.

Now with a fresh look at it, certainly a DVD player is an electronic box of some size. I had one of that era or earlier in my garage until last year or so. I think I discarded it. I know exactly what that would have looked like.

Unless it was something Jennifer had that was kept in the car, it's not speculation. If it's associated with Rob at all, and was in the car temporarily, and she just got off the phone with Rob, then the odds are high that she went back out to the car to get it.

It could be as simple as talking to Rob reminded her it was still out in the car.

I haven't seen too much on this. This is the first time I actually realized what we're talking about in a DVD player.

 

[flgrl017]

It can shows he came in the morning few hours before the kesses artived. around 900 or 100 am. He was not afraid to be seen ,if he worked in the mosaic it's not suspicious if he did work in jennifer's buildimg or near it .
He staged the apt to look like jennifer left for work. a usual day .

I think the shower could have been staged as well. I watched part of an interview with Jennifer's mother and she stated the walls were still wet when they arrived. I take 2 showers a day and the walls always dry very fast. I could see some standing water around the bottles or shower curtain being wet from the night/morning before, but the walls? That's why I was wondering if they did any tests to see about how long it took to dry. Anyways if the perp did return to stage and went as far as to turn on the shower that suggests that he knew the Kesse's would be there soon....