FL FL - Michelle Parker, 33, Orlando, 17 Nov 2011 - #22

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Pias said:
Roger that. I don't live there, but I do recall something about O'Brien's, but I think it was a different one?
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Who saw Dale at Obrien's was it Thor? I am confused...TIA
 
Pias said:
... privacy laws... I would stipulate, that under suspicion of a violent crime which also leads to the responsibility for the safety of others, and to which extent, harm to someone seems apparent, whether past, present, or future, that swift justice prevail over a persons right to privacy. Those rights protecting our privacy are costing lives. I guess that is a small price to pay though, huh? I know. Silly me. That is too much to ask, isn't it? Well, I suppose that all depends on who you are and what you do and how it has or has not impacted your own walk in life. Experience(s) change(s) everything.
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I am sorry but I totally disagree, and although I thoroughly disagree with Thor about 1,000 percent of the time the snark you are directing toward him is downright mean at this point.

That being said, suggesting that we should give our right to privacy up for our safety is dangerous. Do you know how many people are wrongly convicted in this country and sometimes put to death? Do you know that most of those people are people of color? Our "rights" protect us from many things and being hysterical in the face of the dark side of human nature is a very slippery slope. No government agency should have that much power because just as we have murderers and racists we have rogue law enforcement and as seen in the Casey Anthony case, ridiculous juries.

There are a plethora of ways to work toward a less violent and murderous society and giving up rights is not one of them. Laws protecting women from their abusive spouses is a start. Michelle was denied a restraining order. Less hatred, disrespect, and oversexualizing of women is another, access to mental health care and less stigmatizing ideas about seeking help, less glorification of violence. I could go on and on. We need to be more proactive instead of reactive.

I am certain that Dale is guilty as sin and should pay for his crime and I believe he will. I also believe in his right to a fair trail, because his right to a fair trial is YOUR right to a fair trial and all that comes along with ensuring such a process.

I am for the victim and not the murderer but I am also a fan of our often frustrating justice system. I wouldn't want to be tried for murder in China. Would you? People don't have a whole lot of privacy there.
 
Jazzmaster said:
Who saw Dale at Obrien's was it Thor? I am confused...TIA
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It was me, but I wasn't sure because the guy was heavier. I thought Dale was fairly thin, so it probably wasn't him. Still, I thought the surrounding area might be a good place to search, just in case.
 
Spice said:
I am sorry but I totally disagree, and although I thoroughly disagree with Thor about 1,000 percent of the time the snark you are directing toward him is downright mean at this point.

That being said, suggesting that we should give our right to privacy up for our safety is dangerous. Do you know how many people are wrongly convicted in this country and sometimes put to death? Do you know that most of those people are people of color? Our "rights" protect us from many things and being hysterical in the face of the dark side of human nature is a very slippery slope. No government agency should have that much power because just as we have murderers and racists we have rogue law enforcement and as seen in the Casey Anthony case, ridiculous juries.

There are a plethora of ways to work toward a less violent and murderous society and giving up rights is not one of them. Laws protecting women from their abusive spouses is a start. Michelle was denied a restraining order. Less hatred, disrespect, and oversexualizing of women is another, access to mental health care and less stigmatizing ideas about seeking help, less glorification of violence. I could go on and on. We need to be more proactive instead of reactive.

I am certain that Dale is guilty as sin and should pay for his crime and I believe he will. I also believe in his right to a fair trail, because his right to a fair trial is YOUR right to a fair trial and all that comes along with ensuring such a process.

I am for the victim and not the murderer but I am also a fan of our often frustrating justice system. I wouldn't want to be tried for murder in China. Would you? People don't have a whole lot of privacy there.
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It wasn't directed at Thor at all, except that it was us discussing the subject. As for any attitude, I mean it will never work and it frustrates me because the majority would never go for it, as in, it is silly of me to think it would ever work. Sorry to Thor if it was taken personally, even though he never mentioned that he did. I don't know if the link I provided is anything like what they do in China. I also do not see how this technology defies justice because it seems to eliminate a lot of guess work that would otherwise be required, assembling a suspect's list and poking into a lot of people's business that have nothing to do with it. It's still an invasion, it is just a different group and process, but still an invasion, to me, so I happen to be of the minority opinion that getting the perp swiftly IS due justice. Perhaps people would be less likely to commit such acts of violence, but one thing seems certain, the right people would be where they should be a lot faster. Do the crime, do the time. Why imprison the wrong person? Again. Either way you investigate it, you are going to invade people's privacy.
 
Pias said:
It wasn't directed at Thor at all, except that it was us discussing the subject. As for any attitude, I mean it will never work and it frustrates me because the majority would never go for it, as in, it is silly of me to think it would ever work. Sorry to Thor if it was taken personally, even though he never mentioned that he did. I don't know if the link I provided is anything like what they do in China. I also do not see how this technology defies justice because it seems to eliminate a lot of guess work that would otherwise be required, assembling a suspect's list and poking into a lot of people's business that have nothing to do with it. It's still an invasion, it is just a different group and process, but still an invasion, to me, so I happen to be of the minority opinion that getting the perp swiftly IS due justice. Perhaps people would be less likely to commit such acts of violence, but one thing seems certain, the right people would be where they should be a lot faster. Do the crime, do the time. Why imprison the wrong person? Again. Either way you investigate it, you are going to invade people's privacy.
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He didn't mention anything. I noticed it in a few posts and with all of his claiming that differing opinions are not welcome here, which they are, I found the extra snark supportive of his idea.

In any event, I agree with you that getting to the perp swiftly is due justice, what I may not agree with is to what extent are you suggesting that Americans should "give up" their right to privacy to do so?

"Do the crime do the time" is all well and good but our system, like no other country, is set up by nature to protect the innocent from being wrongly convicted. Unfortunately, there is a cost to that that none of us like, but it is necessary, because one innocent rotting in jail or being executed on death row is one too many. Or maybe some believe that one murderer getting away with it is one too many and are willing to have the pendulum swing the other way. It all depends on where you are coming from I guess.

Even with all of the protections set up in the system as it stands, so many people have been wrongly convicted of murder and actually paid for it with their lives. Some are still getting released after decades to this very day.

Convictions should come from evidence, collected and presented in a way that represents our democracy. Loosening the reigns on our rights is tunnel vision in my opinion and a very slippery slope. I would be interesting to read the specific laws that you would like to see overturned in favor of less privacy. Not being snarky, I really am curious. Maybe some could afford to be overturned, or not if they would give a despotic and orwellian arm to those in power.

I am not suggesting that LE should not have what is available to them to get their suspect in a timely manner. The question is to what level and when do we cross the line into extreme violation? Where do we draw the line in that respect?

I am simply stating that giving up rights is a serious matter and while you may be willing to do so, I certainly am not, but that does not mean that I am not an advocate of the victim and their families, I am. I would have fought tooth and nail for Michelle to receive that restraining order. There is something definitely wrong with the fact that this guy may very well have been involved in not one, but three deaths.

I'm wondering what laws or societal ideologies may have been built in to contribute to that and what can we do to change it? How could Michelle have been more protected to begin with? And what can we change that would help LE gather more evidence on Dale at this point. I am assuming that they have a lot that we don't know about already as they are very confident that he is their one and only suspect. ( I agree) I think that it is a safe assumption that they are waiting to prosecute until they find Michelle, and no privacy law would help with that that I know of. They didn't arrest Scott until Laci and Connor had surfaced and they never claimed to have anything more than circumstantial evidence on him.
 
Spice said:
He didn't mention anything. I noticed it in a few posts and with all of his claiming that differing opinions are not welcome here, which they are, I found the extra snark supportive of his idea.

In any event, I agree with you that getting to the perp swiftly is due justice, what I may not agree with is to what extent are you suggesting that Americans should "give up" their right to privacy to do so?

"Do the crime do the time" is all well and good but our system, like no other country, is set up by nature to protect the innocent from being wrongly convicted. Unfortunately, there is a cost to that that none of us like, but it is necessary, because one innocent rotting in jail or being executed on death row is one too many. Or maybe some believe that one murderer getting away with it is one too many and are willing to have the pendulum swing the other way. It all depends on where you are coming from I guess.

Even with all of the protections set up in the system as it stands, so many people have been wrongly convicted of murder and actually paid for it with their lives. Some are still getting released after decades to this very day.

Convictions should come from evidence, collected and presented in a way that represents our democracy. Loosening the reigns on our rights is tunnel vision in my opinion and a very slippery slope. I would be interesting to read the specific laws that you would like to see overturned in favor of less privacy. Not being snarky, I really am curious. Maybe some could afford to be overturned, or not if they would give a despotic and orwellian arm to those in power.

I am not suggesting that LE should not have what is available to them to get their suspect in a timely manner. The question is to what level and when do we cross the line into extreme violation? Where do we draw the line in that respect?

I am simply stating that giving up rights is a serious matter and while you may be willing to do so, I certainly am not, but that does not mean that I am not an advocate of the victim and their families, I am. I would have fought tooth and nail for Michelle to receive that restraining order. There is something definitely wrong with the fact that this guy may very well have been involved in not one, but three deaths.

I'm wondering what laws or societal ideologies may have been built in to contribute to that and what can we do to change it? How could Michelle have been more protected to begin with? And what can we change that would help LE gather more evidence on Dale at this point. I am assuming that they have a lot that we don't know about already as they are very confident that he is their one and only suspect. ( I agree) I think that it is a safe assumption that they are waiting to prosecute until they find Michelle, and no privacy law would help with that that I know of. They didn't arrest Scott until Laci and Connor had surfaced and they never claimed to have anything more than circumstantial evidence on him.
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I understand your position, and the benefit of Proactive, but I feel it takes more than just being proactive, and I see how this technology would be very effective. It would not eliminate or replace collection of evidence or right to trial. It would eliminate a lot of the guessing about who, not so much about motive, for example, which is key in determining degree of punishment. The other point is, as in Michelle's case, we would already have the body, and THAT is why it frustrates me so! It wouldn't be about IF Dale did it. We would already have WHO, no matter WHO that WHO is! There would be no Dale bashing cuz there would be no thread here like the one we have at least, and Thor and I would have never bumped into conversation any more than you and I. This is not personal, though I could see why you might take it that way, but what is really is, is to say that we are only here, in this moment, having this conversation, because this technology isn't in use. As for the laws that would be changed, it is all in that web page I provided the link to, and since it already says it, if you want to know how I would change things, well then, there you have it, because I would agree to the proposal. It is well written and thought out by someone who obviously took their time to do their research. There is nothing there that I could add or take away, or would even want to.
 
Lines. We all draw them. It is where that makes all the difference. Sometimes it is an independent and personal line, and sometimes it is a collective one and not all agree with where it has been drawn, but are forced to accept it by rule of majority. Then there are those who cross the line of no return, such as those who feel they have the right to take the life of another, and those who choose not to tell what they know, despite the fact that it is legally and morally wrong according to the majority. This group still has a choice. Then there are still others who dare to cross the line for the sake of positive change and the everlasting hope and possibility that the majority sees the light, because you are helpless without them but a force with them and those lines can be moved!
 
Pias said:
Lines. We all draw them. It is where that makes all the difference. Sometimes it is an independent and personal line, and sometimes it is a collective one and not all agree with where it has been drawn, but are forced to accept it by rule of majority. Then there are those who cross the line of no return, such as those who feel they have the right to take the life of another, and those who choose not to tell what they know, despite the fact that it is legally and morally wrong according to the majority. This group still has a choice. Then there are still others who dare to cross the line for the sake of positive change and the everlasting hope and possibility that the majority sees the light, because you are helpless without them but a force with them and those lines can be moved!
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I very much agree. I think we all can agree that murder is morally wrong....but the moral compass in this country is not in agreement about A LOT of things and the majority is most definitely not always correct.

I believe in changing things, I believe in progress and not maintaining the status quo and the familiar just for the sake of it. Unfortunately common sense and the change for the collective greater good is not the norm. We legislate emotion constantly and emotions are not always based in fact.

I am reading through your link. I haven't finished so I cannot yet comment but it is interesting stuff to ponder. It's been an interesting debate but I'll back out of this one for now so that we don't take the attention off of Michelle and who harmed her.
 
Spice said:
I very much agree. I think we all can agree that murder is morally wrong....but the moral compass in this country is not in agreement about A LOT of things and the majority is most definitely not always correct.

I believe in changing things, I believe in progress and not maintaining the status quo and the familiar just for the sake of it. Unfortunately common sense and the change for the collective greater good is not the norm. We legislate emotion constantly and emotions are not always based in fact.

I am reading through your link. I haven't finished so I cannot yet comment but it is interesting stuff to ponder. It's been an interesting debate but I'll back out of this one for now so that we don't take the attention off of Michelle and who harmed her.
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BBM
It is the belief that enough like minded people will take the time to read it, like you are. I mean, REALLY READ IT. It is a lot of reading, I give you that, but on the flip side, we have all been here longer, trying to figure it all out, than the time it takes to read that site, and if, after reading it, you can see how privacy is an issue no matter how you investigate, and by the power of reason, and can see how this could be a useful tool, then it only takes a moment more to support it. Together we CAN make change ::):

Supporting this change not only brings attention to Michelle's case, but a multitude with it.
 
Thor said:
If Dale is the perp is almost inconceivable this was planned. IMO
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Why do you think so?

It's not inconceivable to me that this was planned.

IMO, a person would have to know the Prime Suspect very well or have information on the crime in order to be absolutely sure it's inconceivable that this was planned. Example, if it were my close family member or good friend I might say that but if it were, say, my neighbor I could never be absolutely sure. And it would still be up in the air because no one ever knows what another person is thinking or planning unless that person tells them. JMO

I'm just wondering what you based your opinion on, since it was so strongly worded.

TIA
 
How can I help? What can I do? I want to help but I don't know how.

http://cruci34.angelfire.com/Weneedtodomore.html

Won't you (all) help bring Michelle home and others like her?

Please make time to take time and you can. Thank you.

I'd like to add a quote from the page:

We expect those who read this page are interested in helping solve the problem.
Educate yourself and use the links to the petition to ask the media to inform the public
and contact our elected officials
Then PLEASE SHARE this info with everyone you can, in any way you can
 
Pias said:
How can I help? What can I do? I want to help but I don't know how.

http://cruci34.angelfire.com/Weneedtodomore.html

Won't you (all) help bring Michelle home and others like her?

Please make time to take time and you can. Thank you.

I'd like to add a quote from the page:

We expect those who read this page are interested in helping solve the problem.
Educate yourself and use the links to the petition to ask the media to inform the public
and contact our elected officials
Then PLEASE SHARE this info with everyone you can, in any way you can
Click to expand...

But Michelle's case happened so long ago. You're saying even NOW, if I were to sign this petition and share it with my friends, and it were to come into law, it could STILL HELP FIND MICHELLE?

From the website:

The existing real-time,
high resolution, satellite surveillance technology exists
The proof is found on the Main Web Page
The system could be used to solve older cold case crimes within minutes
like a body or bodies found
robberies, murder, rapes, home invasions Car thefts, etc. etc.
and MANY other crimes
 
What'sThatClue said:
Why do you think so?

It's not inconceivable to me that this was planned.

IMO, a person would have to know the Prime Suspect very well or have information on the crime in order to be absolutely sure it's inconceivable that this was planned. Example, if it were my close family member or good friend I might say that but if it were, say, my neighbor I could never be absolutely sure. And it would still be up in the air because no one ever knows what another person is thinking or planning unless that person tells them. JMO

I'm just wondering what you based your opinion on, since it was so strongly worded.

TIA
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Well, the particulars of this very point has been discussed before by me, possibly you and certainly by others. My comment there was clearly short, to the point and not terribly informative as the many other statements that circulate here on a regular basis, like ... "I'm certain DS is guilty" "I believe it was premeditated" "IMO she was killed at the condo" without going necessarily into the details that form this or that specific opinion let alone the factual foundation of them all (opinions).

However, since you asked, I based that statement on the logic that should one believe DS is the perp and that he also acted with premeditation then therefore one must also believe it to be logical that DS planned to killed MP on a sunny afternoon, when people are coming and going in mass, many of them getting off work, at is very own condo, at the particular time when MP was dropping the children off there thus making them (the children) part of the crime scene with all the unbelievable logistical complication inherent in that particular planning, that he would position himself to be demonstrably the last known person to come in contact with MP or as many here like to characterize ... "MP gets to Ds condo and ... puff ... she disappears" ... really? ...... No ... really? Now I could go on much further here but i don't think it necessary, it's already surreal enough IMO.

Now, I have seen the unfortunate performance of DS in the PC episode, and I know he definitely is not the brightest light on the porch (so to speak) , but here one would have to assume total and complete idiocy on his part ... actually no, one would have to assume a level of incompetency and stupidity of gigantic proportions, but then again, isn't he also this clever perp who covers his tracks so efficiently? So he's stupid here if it fits this particular narrative and he's smart there if he fits another ... that is why I made that comment you quoted short and to the point, everything else is, as in this instance, a case of "been there, said that".
 
I can understand shock and utter disbelief. I've been in a similar circumstance, only it wasn't a missing person/murder, it was multiple robberies, and the people doing it were using my car, having asked to use it to help them move. Well, I guess he didn't lie. They were moving alright, just wasn't the kind I thought he meant when I loaned him the vehicle on several occasions.

At first, when LE came knocking on my door I had no idea why they wanted me to go out and identify my vehicle, but I followed him out there and did confirmed it and that is when he broke the news to me that a likeness of my car had been on the news and the front page of the newspaper and a particular part of the car made it easily identifiable if anyone had seen it to report it. I was young at the time and didn't get the paper or watch news. I was still into cartoons, Happy Days, and The Brady Bunch lol.

Since I really had no idea just what the heck was happening, my first instinct was to withhold certain information until I had a chance to talk to my husband who was at work at that moment or the guy who borrowed our car.

The officer took me for a ride in his patrol car and asked me to identify where he lived. Instead of showing him exactly where, which was in row housing, I simply directed him to the row and said I know it is here somewhere, which wasn't exactly a lie, I simply chose to withhold everything I knew, which could have gotten me in a lot of trouble, but it never did. After speaking with my husband about it when he got home, we opted to do the right thing, which was always the intention in my heart to begin with, I just was still trying to figure out what the heck, like being in shock.

I imagine my reaction was all the officer needed to tell I had no clue, because they never did think we got a share of the money or anything. As for the robberies themselves, we were of different nationalities, so there was never a question about whether we were involved to that capacity. And no. He never gave us any money. For real. We really truly had no clue.

When Michelle first went missing, and particulars became available, I can only imagine what was going through the minds of the people that know either Michelle, Dale Jr, or both.

My situation was only robberies. Could you imagine it being a missing person when you get put in such a place as to know the person or people involved. Even if Jr. didn't do it, he is still involved. It would be a shock to most anyone!

It is now several months later and Michelle is still missing.

Perhaps it is now time to ask each other (those who know Jr.) "Do we really know where Dale was and what he was doing during those crucial hours? I know I don't want to believe it anymore than you do, but no one I know says they know. You know, it could be possible. Here's what I DO know..." Or "So and so said they were with Dale that day, watching the show with him. I can't believe he/she would have helped, but after this much time and Michelle still missing, maybe we need to tell what we know."

Maybe you don't want anyone you know to know what you know or that you want to talk. You can still give an anonymous tip. It's not too late.

If you know what you know because you were involved, that makes it a lot tougher to do the right thing, but if you are unable to bring yourself to do it, hopefully someone around you will.

That leaves the rest of us who don't know Michelle or Dale, but care that Michelle and others like her are returned to their families, and even though we do not know either of them, we can still help them both.

We can find Michelle AND the right person who is responsible, and clear Dale Jr if he is innocent! So, even as a friend, how much more of a friend could you be than to have this technology to clear his name once and for all and get the right person!

It is a win win situation!

I hope enough people will gather together to sign the proposal, and share it, to get the needed signatures to put it in front of the American people for a vote and let the peoples voice be heard.

Lets bring Michelle home!
 
Pias said:
... We can find Michelle AND the right person who is responsible, and clear Dale Jr if he is innocent! So, even as a friend, how much more of a friend could you be than to have this technology to clear his name once and for all and get the right person!

It is a win win situation!

I hope enough people will gather together to sign the proposal, and share it, to get the needed signatures to put it in front of the American people for a vote and let the peoples voice be heard.

Lets bring Michelle home!
Click to expand...

Hello Pias, I think your heart is in the right place here and the use of satellites imagery to track missing persons is not a farfetched one, however IMO the issue is not as straightforward as it appears in the web page you provided here and perhaps the reason as to why the proponents of this idea would fail to get traction in enlisting serious public support.

IMO There are at least two major issues involved in this proposal, one on constitutional grounds and the other on financial feasibility, the former having not been addressed at all, the latter without a true in-depth cost-benefit analysis, both of which need to be resolved in order to make this proposal a viable one.

Without going into a lengthy analysis of the issues let me summarize:

Constitutionally speaking there are here enormous implications which cannot be easily dismissed, especially when it comes to how this "system" would be used, under what circumstances and lastly, and perhaps more importantly, what safeguards are to be put in place in order to safeguard it from potential abuses, especially where privacy issues are of concerns.

Financially speaking, the cost of a single satellite can be as much as $1 Billion and that would not include its launch and all other costs associated in keeping and maintaing it, which would be considerable, hence there are here IMO serious questions as to the financial viability of a system that is to be used in such an enormous scale as the real-time, 24/7, all year round tracking and image capturing of the entire territory of continental USA.
 
There is one last thing I wanted to share. It might hit a little closer to home, and speak to someone who has the power to do something.

Not so long ago, I was involved in a situation that DID involve murder and knowing where the suspect was hiding. That suspect was someone my husband had known for years, or at least, thought he knew. We learned a lot more about him after learning he had killed someone. As a matter of fact, it happened only a few months ago. Some of you may recall me making a desperate plea for someone to contact me regarding a personal reason. Well, that was the reason. I couldn't think of a better place to turn to for help :)

Let me tell you, it was a scary place to be! Knowing where he was but also knowing if you said anything, you might be the next to pay, was only ONE of the many emotions that were flooding through me. I truly did not know what to do. I was scared! I knew what I SHOULD do, but, at that very minute, I was also thinking that I might be better protected by NOT saying something, than by taking the chance he would find out it was me that had something to do with him getting caught. The guy he had just killed was the same guy that had put him in jail for turning him in the last time for a much lesser offense, so you can imagine my fear.

Thank you to a few who assured me that telling LE was the best decision, no matter what. You were right and I thank you.

We soon learned that he had kidnapped a girl in HI (the girl we knew as his girlfriend!) and took her off the Island. It is unclear just how voluntarily that was, but this girl was among the list of missing that plague our country. She was a part of the statistics. A case you could have read about.

While I don't know exactly how it all went down, whether it was voluntarily, or mental conditioning over a period of time, but eventually, they had a child together. He was more than twice her age and she was a minor when he removed her from the island.

Fast forward several years, and here we are.

My point is, we knew this guy, and her too, but never really knew anything about them even though they were our friends. My husband actually worked with the guy, too. My other point is that I understand a little about what might go through your mind, first hand. There are so many things flooding though it.

It isn't easy. It's a lot to process, but in the end, there is what is right.
 
Thor said:
Thank you for your efforts, I really appreciate it, but the floor plans have no measurements and no details about the actual internal layout of the garage especially whether or not there are any beams in the middle (almost surely though). l.
Click to expand...



Cut, colored and pouffed by me.


The video of the 11/18 condo search shows Baby Dale outside the garage with LE. His "red" vehicle is parked in the garage on the left side viewed from the street and a mammoth (police?) is parked on the right side. It appears that there is plenty of room for the Hummer in the garage, even with another vehicle and Hummer ads say it fits in a normal garage.
 
Just so you know I wasn't just making up that whole murder thing:

http://union-bulletin.com/stories/2012/1/1/george-west-craigen-arrested-in-walla-walla

You can do your own poking around from there if you're so inclined.

Here I was, investigating Michelle's case, when something like her case happens in my own life! You would think I would have went straight to the phone, right? Without question. Well, I tell you, it is a tough spot to be in when he killed a guy for getting him arrested the last time. And yes, no matter what I would have told police, which we did do within hours, but I just had to think it through on how to do it. I didn't want my name taken down anywhere. I needed time to calm down and think. It is funny, it still makes me shake, my palms get sweaty and my blood pressure rises just thinking about it. It wasn't easy for me to share, but I thought maybe it could helps someone else who may be troubled by a similar situation.

Where are you Michelle?
 
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