FLDS compound in Texas Court proceedings ONLY please!!!!!

[mollymalone]

FOX: Introduced into court was lists of the men, in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Their wives were listed alongside them and some of them were 16 years old.

FLDS lawyers argued the names of the wives should be kept under seal because it's a religious matter.

Judge said it is not a religious matter but of underage children.

Residents have been opening homes for the lawyers for children a place to sleep at night because there are no hotel rooms in town or in surrounding area.

Lawyer for a 2 year old child explained that the child kept referring to the woman with her not as mommy, but as Jane. The woman would continually correct the child and say "Mother Jane" The 2 year old child had no idea who the father was.

Flora Jessop: They change the child's name and birthdate so the child remains confused as to parentage, because they are an extension or reflection of the prophet.

 

[mysteriew]

Law enforcement officers obtained a warrant authorizing a search of the compound. Much has been made of the fact that Sarah has not been identified.
Some, including sect members and their attorneys, have said that the call was not placed by anyone in the compound; that it was placed by a disgruntled member or, worse, was a hoax.
I say it doesn't matter, and the Supreme Court agrees.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/16/sunny.child/index.html

From what I have been reading, the warrant should stand for removing the kids. The call was enough to prompt the investigation and if social workers saw signs of abuse they had to remove the kids in the home. The part that will be in question will be whether they define the individual houses as a home or the compound as a home. So the fact that they didn't find Sarah doesn't matter.

But the other issue is a criminal case. And from what I have read that is where the issue of not finding Sarah becomes important. I don't see how it should affect the criminal case, but the experts seem to be split on it.

I have seen other cases where CPS got anonymous calls that Susie is being abused. But when CPS investigated they didn't find abuse on Susie. But they found Johnny in the home and Johnny showed signs of abuse. Kids were removed and parents arrested. But for some reason they are saying that if Sarah is not found that authorities lose their probable cause for arrest. I am confused.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

12:30 p.m. - Attorneys continue to make objections based on multiple issues. An attorney tells Judge Walther the identities of some of the children have been kept secret, and sometimes the names change. Another attorney said ranch leaders kept good records of heads of households and the number of wives and children of the men. It's still slow going in court as attorneys wrangle over legal issues.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/

 

[Leila]

One of the news channels had a brief update, and said men were identified by name, and their wives were listed by name and that medical records were introduced that showed sexual abuse of several children.

If they've got medical evidence of abuse, I would think that alone would prevent any of the children going back to the YFZ ranch pending further investigation.

 

[Leila]

Ar update from the Salt Lake City Tribune:

Article Last Updated: 04/17/2008 12:17:17 PM MDT
if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').style.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } Updated: 11:54 AM- SAN ANGELO, Texas - A judge is now beginning to rule on the first volleys launched by attorneys in today's court battle over more than 400 FLDS children taken into state custody - everything from requests for genetic testing to the admission of medical records for the sect's teenage girls.
District Court Judge Barbara Walther has just approved a state request to admit medical evidence gathered from three teenage FLDS girls who were taken to a temporary shelter at Fort Concho.
The judge has also admitted records taken from a safe in the office of Richard Barlow at the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints YFZ Ranch on April 5.

More at this link...............

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8957324

 

[mollymalone]

"Meanwhile, authorities are identifying more teen girls as mothers or pregnant each day, attorneys say, as girls who have said they are 21 or 18 are being proved to be much younger."

"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon.../stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

So the FLDS wants to know how well their pr efforts are coming across. Do they really think that what they say on tv will make a difference in a court hearing?

 

[mysteriew]

One of the news channels had a brief update, and said men were identified by name, and their wives were listed by name and that medical records were introduced that showed sexual abuse of several children.

If they've got medical evidence of abuse, I would think that alone would prevent any of the children going back to the YFZ ranch pending further investigation.

It is standard for CPS to remove all children in a home if they find evidence of one child being abused. But if the home is a part of an apartment building, they aren't going to move every kid in the apartment building. So from what I have read, home is the key. Did they find signs of abuse in every home? Or are they defining the compound as a home? I believe that since the church's principles order abuse, the compound should be defined as a home. But the court is the one who will decide if there were grounds to remove every kid.

 

[mollymalone]

Dallas attorney Susan Hays: her challenge is to decide if her 2-year-old client is better off with her mother at the ranch, or with relatives, or with the state. She hasn't been able to speak with the father – "I don't know his name," she said – or interview the child, and she has no access to birth certificates or other documentation. The information she's been able to glean from the child's mother is spotty."

"Largely missing from the spotlight has been the fathers – both in media interviews and in discussions from attorneys about their representation. Several lawyers, including Ms. Hays, have said the mothers won't divulge who the men are or where they are – although several were walking into the courthouse to watch the proceedings on Thursday morning. It was unclear if they planned to testify. "

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon.../stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

 

[Floh]

While I understand you cannot put a price on child abuse, this case is going to cost millions. Already the cult is lawyered up to the gills.

Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.

 

[Floh]

Hi gitana,

Several people here have expressed the same sentiment.




On the matter of those who don't agree being so silent....

Silence doesn't always mean there is nothing valid to say. Sometimes it indicates awareness that there is no hearer to speak to.

Glow, i sincerely appreciate calls regarding civil liberties and normally i'm in uproar of protection myself. i really am listening if you have anything to say. i don't want anyone to feel railroaded, honestly. :blowkiss:

 

[mollymalone]

FROM THE COURTHOUSE: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/


"Several attorneys representing women and children begin making objections based on various laws, and one says negative media could skew the results. Judge Walther replies that this is not a jury trial, and that she won't be swayed by media attention."

"CPS asks to obtain DNA samples from adults to match with children.
The first witness is called. (**Other news reports say a woman jumped up shouting when this request was presented) Judge Walther tells a woman to take a seat, saying she will not have people jumping up and down and shouting at the court."

"Women and men from the YFZ Ranch lean over talking to one another, or sit and watch the scene around them. One man from the ranch sticks his finger to his mouth in a universal sign of "shh" to a group of ranch members across the aisle."

"A woman drives by in a white SUV screaming at bystanders to "leave the children alone."

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.

State emergency has been done Already. I believe Federal emergency will be coming soon too!

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/16/county-continues-disaster-declaration-related-to/

 

[mollymalone]

Yes, millions. i wonder if the government should declare a state of emergency for the region in that funding could be given should the children be placed in foster homes? let alone legal expenses for the state. it all needs to be paid for somehow.

Perhaps the govt. can pay for it out of the FLDS funds or from the monies awarded as part of the contracts they have with flds businesses, or out of th welfare money these FLDS members are expecting to keep collecting.

 

[mollymalone]

"Hays said attorneys "have been amazed" by how "beautiful and healthy" the children they represent are. "The parents care a lot about their children. It's not neglect," she said. "This is a sexual abuse case. It may be a physical abuse case."

 

[Leila]

"Meanwhile, authorities are identifying more teen girls as mothers or pregnant each day, attorneys say, as girls who have said they are 21 or 18 are being proved to be much younger."

"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon.../stories/041808dntexfldshearing.723f2e52.html

So the FLDS wants to know how well their pr efforts are coming across. Do they really think that what they say on tv will make a difference in a court hearing?

Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.

 

[mysteriew]

FROM THE COURTHOUSE: http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/17/live-from-the-courthouse-updates-on-flds-custody/


"Several attorneys representing women and children begin making objections based on various laws, and one says negative media could skew the results. Judge Walther replies that this is not a jury trial, and that she won't be swayed by media attention."

"CPS asks to obtain DNA samples from adults to match with children.
The first witness is called. (**Other news reports say a woman jumped up shouting when this request was presented) Judge Walther tells a woman to take a seat, saying she will not have people jumping up and down and shouting at the court."

"Women and men from the YFZ Ranch lean over talking to one another, or sit and watch the scene around them. One man from the ranch sticks his finger to his mouth in a universal sign of "shh" to a group of ranch members across the aisle."

"A woman drives by in a white SUV screaming at bystanders to "leave the children alone."

No longer sweet tempered and ladylike are they?

From the way we are told they live, unable to voice their preferences or grievences, they probably have a lot of issues bottled up. Now they are being given permission to air grievences. All of their angers will be coming out, this could get ugly.

 

[mollymalone]

Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.

But!! The article also states that this has NOT been broached publicly. I seriously doubt the Judge will go for it anyway, because some or most of the women were participants in the abuse or were aware of it and did not stop it. Also, if they can be charged with bigamy or other fraud crimes, what good does it do to put the children back with the very same persons who are committing other crimes?

 

[barb0301]

From what I have been reading, the warrant should stand for removing the kids. The call was enough to prompt the investigation and if social workers saw signs of abuse they had to remove the kids in the home. The part that will be in question will be whether they define the individual houses as a home or the compound as a home. So the fact that they didn't find Sarah doesn't matter.

But the other issue is a criminal case. And from what I have read that is where the issue of not finding Sarah becomes important. I don't see how it should affect the criminal case, but the experts seem to be split on it.

I have seen other cases where CPS got anonymous calls that Susie is being abused. But when CPS investigated they didn't find abuse on Susie. But they found Johnny in the home and Johnny showed signs of abuse. Kids were removed and parents arrested. But for some reason they are saying that if Sarah is not found that authorities lose their probable cause for arrest. I am confused.

I don't see how the search warrant and any evidence gathered could be thrown out. On 4/3, the original warrant was granted for CPS and DPS to go in and search for Sarah, and any documents pertaining to her, the "purported" husband, and any children from the "purported" marriage between the 2.

While conducting that search and interviews, CPS noticed other girls of teenage years that were pregnant and obtained information leading them to believe there were other cases of abuse going on. Based on that information, they briefed DPS, and DPS went back to the judge, who granted ANOTHER, BROADER search warrant for the entire compound and all documents, on 4/6. Based on the fact that CPS workers saw with their own eyes, and heard from other children that abuse was taking place, the judge granted the 2nd warrant. That is when the large-scale warrant was executed and the temple was entered.

I think TX authorities did this in a way that ensured nothing would be thrown out.

 

[Blue_Dolphin308]

Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.

It would never fly. First off how can they keep the men from showing up? How can they keep the men from controlling?! The FBI is involved now, so I highly doubt that a settlement could be arrived.

 

[mysteriew]

Molly............thanks for the link. From the article, this one paragraph is concerning:

Meanwhile, some of attorneys for the children who have been coordinating the overall effort to represent the kids have been meeting with the church representatives Wednesday night and Thursday on a possible settlement: for the men to leave the ranch and the women and children be allowed to live there under CPS supervision.

If this type of arrangement were allowed, I think we'd be right back to square one............if the children were to be returned to the YFZ ranch, with the men gone, but the mothers remaining, the mothers would be able to influence the children not to cooperate with CPS. The women would be in cell phone contact with the men, and instructed what to say to CPS workers.

They have to make the effort. In a lot of child sexual abuse cases, the child will be allowed back if the abuser is no longer allowed in the household. I don't think it will work, but they have to make the effort.

It is interesting though. Didn't the men say they offered to leave the compound and leave it to the mothers and kids? I don't think they will.