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Terminatrixator, I would have to agree that one would need to be REALLY stupid to do something like that. But it's my wishful thinking focus for the day. I'm just hoping that if and when the perp is arrested, that there is a MOUNTAIN of insurmountable evidence.
 
I was thinking that maybe it had to do with the house they were renting (NOT OWNING - lol), but I can't imagine why Janet would be afraid to tell her friends what was in those papers then.

Unless she was embarassed that they were renting (NOT OWNING) and had just found out.
 
ewwwinteresting said:
I think it's deplorable that raven (and his mother/stepfather?) used janet's murder to raise money. The fuhd was set up at raven's stepfather's credit union. I would think only they could have set up this account. AND to know that they did it within hours of Janet dying a brutal death. She died at 10:55 pm and what, the bank opened at 9:00 a.m., and a fund is set up? This is beyond outrageous.

Ok, what about this? raven confesses to his mother that morning that he killed Janet and his mother realizes she possibly could only have a short time to raise money from this tragedy -- imminent arrest? Does anything else make sense? Why else would a fund be set up so soon and without Janet's family's support? They support the Janet Abaroa Scholorship Fund.....not the Buy Toys For Raven and Pay for his Defense fund!!
Heaven help us all if you are right on this ewwwinteresting.
 
BirdHunter said:
Heaven help us all if you are right on this ewwwinteresting.
Wouldn't heaven just need to help those Abaroas? Why include the rest of us with them?

Welcome BirdHunter. Good to have you here. I also enjoy your name.
 
ewwwinteresting said:
I think it's deplorable that raven (and his mother/stepfather?) used janet's murder to raise money. The fuhd was set up at raven's stepfather's credit union. I would think only they could have set up this account. AND to know that they did it within hours of Janet dying a brutal death. She died at 10:55 pm and what, the bank opened at 9:00 a.m., and a fund is set up? This is beyond outrageous.

Ok, what about this? raven confesses to his mother that morning that he killed Janet and his mother realizes she possibly could only have a short time to raise money from this tragedy -- imminent arrest? Does anything else make sense? Why else would a fund be set up so soon and without Janet's family's support? They support the Janet Abaroa Scholorship Fund.....not the Buy Toys For Raven and Pay for his Defense fund!!
I could not agree with you more, Eww...and I, too, wonder if his mother knows. I truly don't think the apple fell far from the tree on this one. It doesn't appear that these children were taught real values and responsibility in life. A shame, really.
 
LTUlegal said:
I could not agree with you more, Eww...and I, too, wonder if his mother knows. I truly don't think the apple fell far from the tree on this one. It doesn't appear that these children were taught real values and responsibility in life. A shame, really.
Exactly, which is why Kaiden needs to be with the Christiansen Family NOT with Mommy Dearest...
 
snapple said:
Exactly, which is why Kaiden needs to be with the Christiansen Family NOT with Mommy Dearest...
I can't tell you on how many levels I agree with you!
 
Jenifred said:
Wouldn't heaven just need to help those Abaroas? Why include the rest of us with them?
LOL....I agree Jen I would not want to be in any shape or form connected to that family.
 
golfmom said:
Just to pass along an unconfirmed tip I received a long time ago, Raven supposedly had Janet sign some papers just days before her murder. Janet wouldn't come out and say what exactly was in those papers, but her friend felt that Janet was afraid.

Again, I got this from only one source and it is unconfirmed.
...i was re-reading this thread........the logical concluson is still that those were life insurance papers......
...what. an. idiot.
..he has her sign , and then murders her shortly therafter ??

..was he sooooooooooo elated over the dollars he would receive on the policy, that he rushed to "do it "? not bothering to take in to accout the numerous errors he committed while in the act ??

..an analogy: a semi close friend of mine recently won a bit of money .....10,000.00..........she became immediatly this person who was crazed'........paying off her credit ....buying new flooring......tossing out her husband..........it was so weird..........it was like she couldn't even SLEEP, she was so excited to be doing all of these "new things".flying high.....

...i can't help but think, if raven knew he was in for a "windfall"........life insurance............to pay off the VX.........set himself up.......have some 'cruisin' $$$$$$'s..".........that he would be rapidly putting some insane idiotic plan into motion............

..and he did.
 
Hi Laurij,

I do want to add a little addendum to your post above, I hope you don't mind.

No matter how short the time it took to conceive this plan, according to your theory above, one thing still remains clear, Premeditation.

Please see: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29235&page=1&pp=25


"Premeditation means that the act was thought out beforehand for some length of time, however short, but no particular amount of time is necessary for the mental process of premeditation." State v. Conner, 335 N.C. 618, 635, 440 S.E.2d 826, 835-36 (1994).

"Deliberation means an intent to kill, carried out in a cool state of blood, in furtherance of a fixed design for revenge or to accomplish an unlawful purpose and not under the influence of a violent passion, suddenly aroused by lawful or just cause or legal provocation." Id. at 635, 440 S.E.2d at 836.

A defendant's conduct before and after the killing is a circumstance to be considered in determining whether he acted with premeditation and deliberation. State v. Vaughn, 324 N.C. 301, 305, 377 S.E.2d 738, 740 (1989); State v. Jackson, 317 N.C. 1, 23, 343 S.E.2d 814, 827 (1986), sentence vacated on other grounds, 479 U.S. 1077, 94 L. Ed. 2d 133 (1995).
 
lauriej said:
...i can't help but think, if raven knew he was in for a "windfall"........life insurance............to pay off the VX.........set himself up.......have some 'cruisin' $$$$$$'s..".........that he would be rapidly putting some insane idiotic plan into motion............

..and he did.
The issue of mania certainly pops into my mind here. Rash decisions. Poor choices ...
 
Again, some laws regarding Mania/Insanity in a defense:

1. The Insanity Defense Reform Act Prohibits The Use of Psychiatric Evidence Short of Insanity to Excuse or Mitigate the Offense

The Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984, 18 U.S.C.A. § 17 ("IDRA") , redefined the insanity defense under federal law, and placed significant restrictions on the use of mental defect evidence. Section 17 provides:



(a) It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under any Federal statute that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. Mental disease does not otherwise constitute a defense. (b) The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.


The IDRA effected existing insanity law in at least three ways. First, it deleted the "volitional prong of the commonly accepted Model Penal Code approach which permitted acquittal if the defendant "as a result of mental disease or defect . . . lacks substantial capacity . . . to conform his conduct to the requirements of law." United States v. Pohlot, 827 F.2d 889, 896 (3d Cir. 1987) (quoting Model Penal Code § 4.01 (1962). This change had the effect of returning insanity law to the familiar McNaghten rule. United States v. Twine, 853 F.2d 676, 678 (9th Cir. 1988). Second, insanity became an affirmative defense, shifting the burden of proof to the defendant by clear and convincing evidence. Pohlot, 827 F.2d at 896. Third, § 17 provides that, beyond insanity, "[m]ental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense." Twine, 853 F.2d at 679. See also United States v. Cameron, 907 F.2d 1051, 1061 (11th Cir. 1990) (Listing these three changes as well as two others).

Therefore, with the IDRA, "Congress intended to restrict a defendant's ability to excuse guilt with mental defect evidence, curtailing the insanity defense." United States v. Twine, 853 F.2d 676, 679 (9th Cir. 1988) (emphasis added) . The Report of the Senate Judiciary Committee explained that the language stating that "mental disease or defect does not otherwise constitute a defense" was "intended to insure that the insanity defense is not improperly resurrected in the guise of showing some other affirmative defense, such as that the defendant had a 'diminished responsibility'' (14. "Diminished responsibility" raises a claim of justification or excuse to mitigate crimes based on a mental abnormality of the accused that substantially impaired his mental responsibility. Frisbee, 623 F.Supp. at 1221 n.2. It is a "pure defense" that allows a sane, but mentally disabled, defendant to be held "less culpable than his normal counterpart who commits the same criminal act." Peter Arenella, The Diminished Capacity and Diminished Responsibility Defenses: Children of a Doomed Marriage, 77 COLUM. L. REV. 827, 829 (1977).) or some similarly asserted state of mind which would serve to excuse the offense and open the door . . . to needlessly confusing psychiatric testimony." Frisbee, 623 F.Supp. at 1220, quoting S REP. No. 225, 98th Cong., 2nd Sess. 229, reprinted in 1984 U.S.C.C.A.N. 3182, 3411; see United States v. Cameron, 907 F.2d 1051, 1066 (11th Cir. 1990) ("Congress meant to preclude the use of 'non-insanity' psychiatric evidence that points toward 'exoneration or mitigation of an offense...'"), quoting United States v. Pohlot, 827 F.2d 889, 890 (3rd Cir. 1987), cert. denied, 484 U.S. 1011 (1988). The Act and its legislative history thus explicitly prohibit psychiatric evidence that amounts to an affirmative defense other than insanity. 18 U.S.C.A. § 17(a); 5. REP. No. 225; H.R. REP. No. 98-177, 98th Cong. 1st Sess. 14 (1983) ("Since ... the Committee is concerned that additional defenses based on mental disorders could be developed by the courts in order to circumvent the tighter requirements developed by Congress ... the bill provides that the Committee's test constitutes the only affirmative defense that will be applicable in Federal courts"); see United States v. Westcott, 83 F.3d 1354, 1358 (11th Cir. 1996) , cert. denied, 117 S.Ct. 269, ("Through the Act, Congress intended to prohibit the presentation of mental disease, short of insanity, to excuse conduct").


2. Psychiatric Evidence Short of Insanity Is Inadmissible Unless It Supports A Legally Acceptable Theory Negating Mens Rea

Despite its stated purpose to restrict the insanity defense the IDRA does not bar psychiatric evidence to negate an element of the offense. As the Court observed in Pohlot: "Both the wording of the statute and the legislative history leave no doubt that Congress intended, as the Senate Report stated, to bar only alternative 'affirmative defenses' that 'excuse' misconduct not evidence that disproves an element of the crime itself." 827 F.2d at 897, citing United States v. Gold, 661 F.Supp. 1127, 1130-31 (D.C. Cir. 1987) and United States v. Frisbee, 623 F.Supp. 1217 (N.D.Cal.1985) . The Ninth Circuit has adopted Pohlot's reasoning. United States v. Twine, 853 F.2d 676, 679 (9th Cir. 1988) citing Pohlot, Gold and Frisbee. In Twine, the Court explained:



Unlike insanity, [the diminished capacity] defense is not an excuse. Diminished capacity is directly concerned with whether the defendant possessed the ability to attain the culpable state of mind which defines the crime. Successful defendants simply are not guilty of the offense charged, although they are usually guilty of a lesser included offense.​
853 F.2d at 678. See also United States v. Fazzini, 871 F.2d .635, 641 (7th Cir. 1989) (distinguishing "diminished responsibility" from "diminished capacity") (15. In Pohlot, the Court identified three variants of the "diminished capacity" defense. First, admission of evidence of mental abnormality to negate mens rea. Second, admission of evidence that the defendant not only lacked mens rea in the particular case but also that he lacked the capacity to form the mens rea. Third, "partially diminished capacity . . . which permits the jury to mitigate punishment of a mentally disabled but sane offender in any case where the jury believes that the defendant is less culpable than his normal counterpart who commits the same criminal act." 827 F.2d at 903-04. Only the first of these variants survives the IDRA. Id. at 905.)

 
terminatrixator said:
Again, some laws regarding Mania/Insanity in a defense:
Not that I'm saying it's a defense; I'm just saying that it makes it all the more likely in my mind that it could have gone down just as lauriej described.
 
Oh I do understand what you are saying.

I just wanted to make sure it was loud and clear to all members and lurkers the law regarding Mania/Insanity Defense.
 
JerseyGirl said:
The issue of mania certainly pops into my mind here. Rash decisions. Poor choices ...
I dont know, I just dont think Raven would go for the insane/mania defense. I think his pride would get in the way. I mean he plead guilty to embezzlement but I think that is because he knew he was busted. I dont think he will ever admit to this horrific crime. I just dont think he will. I believe in his mind he pulled off "a perfect murder" and will never confess. Which is sad because I believe all of Janet's family and friends deserve a confession if nothing else.
 
goodolebv said:
I dont know, I just dont think Raven would go for the insane/mania defense. I think his pride would get in the way. I mean he plead guilty to embezzlement but I think that is because he knew he was busted. I dont think he will ever admit to this horrific crime. I just dont think he will. I believe in his mind he pulled off "a perfect murder" and will never confess. Which is sad because I believe all of Janet's family and friends deserve a confession if nothing else.
Good post, goodolebv. I agree with everything you've said, and that Raven will not confess. And if he committed this crime, mania or not, he needs to pay the consequences. I have never seen Raven's possible mania as an excuse. But I can definitely see how it might have fit in during the planning of this awful crime.
 
You know, I have been thinking a lot about this case. And I've angered some of you because I was trying to be a little bit more objective than most of you. BUT, here's another thing that just doesn't click with the whole story/stories Raven has given. If it was, indeed, a SUICIDE - dont' insurance policies cancel out then? They don't pay if it was a suicide. So, that story wouldn't have brought in any money for the Bird. :loser: What did they do with that angle anyway? It seems like it got buried very quickly.
 
Justgimmethetruth said:
You know, I have been thinking a lot about this case. And I've angered some of you because I was trying to be a little bit more objective than most of you. BUT, here's another thing that just doesn't click with the whole story/stories Raven has given. If it was, indeed, a SUICIDE - dont' insurance policies cancel out then?
That's a very good point. The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is that perhaps after going through with his plan, the reality of what he had done had started to sink in. Especially when he realized that he was going to have to tell Janet's family about her death. I don't think that the wheels were turning quite right when Raven started spewing those statements, (or allowing others to). I think that he just couldn't face the family, (and I don't think he planned for that).

Also, if he claimed suicide, not only would it separate him from the crime, it would also separate him from another possible motive. "It couldn't have been me ... I thought she had committed suicide. Would I have risked the insurance money by saying it was a suicide if I did this FOR the insurance money?" Knowing full well the entire time that LE would rule it a homicide and his insurance claim would still be valid as long as he could manage to get himself cleared as a POI.

JMO.
 
goodolebv said:
I dont know, I just dont think Raven would go for the insane/mania defense. I think his pride would get in the way. I mean he plead guilty to embezzlement but I think that is because he knew he was busted. I dont think he will ever admit to this horrific crime. I just dont think he will. I believe in his mind he pulled off "a perfect murder" and will never confess. Which is sad because I believe all of Janet's family and friends deserve a confession if nothing else.
I agree with you, I don't think he will admit to it, even after he gets arrested, convicted and gets sentenced....he will deny, deny, deny.

God, he seems like he is related to the San Quentin Prisioner that got sentenced to Death. I see so many things in common between Raven & his Mother and SP & Jackie.
 
terminatrixator said:
I agree with you, I don't think he will admit to it, even after he gets arrested, convicted and gets sentenced....he will deny, deny, deny.

God, he seems like he is related to the San Quentin Prisioner that got sentenced to Death. I see so many things in common between Raven & his Mother and SP & Jackie.
...the distinction between sp/jackie and raven/karen are soooooooooo similar.........term............you'e always 5 steps ahead of me.........good call.
 

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