For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[Sustained]

The more I read various theories proposed on SA being framed, ranging from the typical to the completely bizarre, the more I'm convinced there was no conspiracy or agenda to frame SA. I won't say mistakes weren't made along the way, because that's not all that uncommon in large cases, but a concerted effort to plant evidence (including body parts) all to get SA charged with a crime because he had sued the county? Just not seeing it and it's not because I refuse to see it... there just isn't any evidence anyone has been able to show. Lots of imagined evidence and imagined conspiracy, yes. Actual evidence, no.

What kind of evidence would be made available by LE if LE was involved in the planting ? Video of Colborn driving and parking the RAV4 on the back of the Avery property ? Lenk DNA on the RAV4 key and fob ? Photos of bones being moved to the burn pit behind Avery's garage ? And in the case of a LE conspiracy, do you think anyone would have talked knowing they would be immediately killed ?

 

[Madeleine74]

Applause for those who are working their way through the evidence and trial transcripts and are willing to consider there might not have been any conspiracy and framing. It's a valid position to take (i.e. prove the framing occurred and who did it). Claims by either side should be held to the same standard, IMO. The state was required to prove guilt B.A.R.D. and according to 12 jury members who voted unanimously, the state met that burden.

If there's evidence that should be considered and vetted that shows/proves framing or planting of evidence, then bring it! No one wants an innocent person to be in jail.

 

[Sarah]

OK I'm bringing this up again, because IMO it's the single strongest piece of evidence pointing directly to SA as the guilty party.
It's closely followed (again MOO) by the circumstantial evidence of the clean-up in the garage.
I say this because I have concerns about the key and the possibility that it was "relocated" to SA's trailer from elsewhere to bolster the case against him and I also have some unanswered questions about the bullet.

For almost everything else, you can come make a reasonable case implicating another person within the salvage yard or to a lesser extent anybody with a possible motive and a means of accessing the key locations . . . but the blood? If it wasn't planted then SA was in that car and is directly linked with TH's murder. If there's proof that it was planted, then I find myself having to re-evaluate everything else that I believe about this case.

Anyway, I came across a document I hadn't seen before and IMO this conclusively de-bunks every argument I've seen to date claiming to prove that the blood vial was tampered with.
Ironically, it's the defense's statement to the court about the planted blood that was presented prior to the trial : http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Defendants-Statement-on-Planted-Blood.pdf

> The needle hole in the top of the vial? Yep, that was how the blood got into the vial. I know that one was de-bunked quite a while ago, but I'm including it here for completeness.

> The unsealed box / split evidence tape? In 2002 as part of the Innocence Project appeal against the rape conviction, members of SA's defense team opened packages of evidence to determine what to send out for further testing. It seems that it's even noted on the box that DA Fitzgerald had opened it before re-sealing it again.

It is believed that the evidence tape seal was broken at that time so the parties could discover the contents.

> Blood around the stopper indicating that the stopper had been removed? (I've seen this put forward in response to de-bunking the needle hole) Yep. That was LabCorp when they did the initial DNA profile from the blood sample.

The needle hole in the cap did not come from the testing LabCorp did on the blood, because Meghan Ciement, Lab Corp',s technical director, asserts their lab's practice is not to extract blood by inserting a hypodermic needle through the cap; they would have removed the cap. Lab Corp determined that the use of needles for extraction of blood samples is both dangerous to the analysts and unnecessarily expensive,

Of course, we can't categorically say that the vial wasn't tampered with but with no credible evidence to back that assertion up, plus the work that Limaes did earlier with the hand pattern and the EDTA test results . . . IMO everything points towards those blood stains being a solid, reliable piece of evidence.

 

[Limaes]

This is an interesting article from May 2006. There are a few things I never knew

* The article says that TH did not park her car out the front where the mini van was, but in the driveway between SA's trailer and garage. Not sure how accurate that is or how they knew that.

* Mama Avery went and picked BD up from school because he was very distressed and was suicidal. She left him in the Autoshop so his Uncles could keep an eye on him. Seems they got their info fron CA & EA.

http://www.milwaukeemag.com/2006/05/01/blood-simple/

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[Limaes]

Applause for those who are working their way through the evidence and trial transcripts and are willing to consider there might not have been any conspiracy and framing. It's a valid position to take (i.e. prove the framing occurred and who did it). Claims by either side should be held to the same standard, IMO. The state was required to prove guilt B.A.R.D. and according to 12 jury members who voted unanimously, the state met that burden.

If there's evidence that should be considered and vetted that shows/proves framing or planting of evidence, then bring it! No one wants an innocent person to be in jail.

Thank you for providing this little thread to discuss important aspects of this case. Your dedication to seeking the truth is appreciated and admired

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[Hoosen_Fenger]

Thanks everyone for the contribution to this thread. I am so pleased Madeleine74 started it off. Not only do I think Avery is Guilty, but Dassey is too. I was shouting at the TV watching MaM for opposite reasons than most. I could see immediately how biased it was.

The parts of Dassey's interviews that were shown, were the excerpts to make it seem like he was being fed the answers. People forget it was his Mum that told the Police that he came home with bleach statins on Halloween, when she was being interviewed some time later.

Something else the Conspiracy Theorists/ Frame Job/ Evidence Planters want to have you believe is that Dassey is a Dumb kid who was educationally retarded. Hang on, his assertion when on the stand that he read Kiss The Girls, kind of flies in the face of that. He is either dumb or he isn't. If he is? Then he would not have been able to read Kiss The Girls and retain the knowledge he did, then recount it in graphic detail, right?

No. He was lying to save his own skin and the evidence is overwhelming.

The reason it took months to find the bullet fragment with TH's DNA, was it was not until months later, that the police knew what they were looking for. Don't get me started on the Key. Avery was just careless with it.

Ashes in the Burn Pit, the phone records, the DNA in six places in the car, start looking the last place a victim is known to have been, leg shackles, history of violence towards women, the full confession of Dassey all point to the convictions of both of them being sound.

Both of them are as Guilty as a Puppy sitting next to a pile of Poo.

 

[bessie]

Reminder, because some apparently have forgotten the title of this thread:

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT THINK AVERY WAS FRAMED & EVIDENCE PLANTED - DISCUSS

 

[Sarah]

Thank you to Madeleine from me too

This is an interesting article from May 2006. There are a few things I never knew[/url]

A lot of the old media links from the original thread on here no longer work, so it's definitely interesting to see how things were perceived and reported at the time.
If I'm honest though, the overall tone of the article disturbs me slightly, in as much as it feels just as biased towards the prosecution as MAM was towards the defense.

However, there are still a few interesting snippets in there and I wonder what else was reported at the time that's now been lost and forgotten about.
I'd love to know the provenance of the claim about where the RAV4 was parked. If it's true, it makes the bus driver's testimony unlikely (even though that really messes about with my theory on what happened!)

 

[Sarah]

Both of them are as Guilty as a Puppy sitting next to a pile of Poo.

I know there's absolutely nothing funny about any of this, but that quote really did make me literally LOL!

I'm still not sure what I make of the 'Kiss the Girls' piece.
I seriously doubt that somebody who doesn't know the meaning of the word 'inconsistent' could read it properly and fully comprehend it.
I do think that BD may have seen a copy of the book though and I think it's even possible that it was one of the 'fad books' of his age group and the topic of schoolyard gossip among his peers (especially some of the more graphic scenes)
Back in my day, it was Virginia Andrews' Flowers in the Attic - and I could have told you the content of that book based on lunchtime gossip before I'd even picked up a copy of it.

However, my recollection of Kiss the Girls is that it only bears a passing resemblance to Brendan's story - in as much as it involves kidnap, restraints and rape (basically standard serial killer fiction fodder) rather than matching any finer details.
Yes, this is me admitting to an embarrassing habit of picking up trashy paperbacks in railway stations to read on long train journeys

 

[HastingsChi]

What I've never understood is the emphasis conspiracy theorists have placed on the 1995 phone call answered by Sergeant Andy Colborn (who in 1995 was working as a corrections officer for the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Office) from a detective in Brown County who said he had someone in custody who was claiming he "had committed an assault in Manitowoc County and someone else was in jail for it."

Colborn Report:
http://www.wisinfo.biz/appleton/pdf/index.php?x=261

Colborn Deposition Video:
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...ry-lawsuit-video-sgt-andrew-colborn/81578240/

It's important to note that in the report and deposition the crime the person was taking credit for is an assault. It's never suggested or claimed that it was a sexual assault or rape; it's only ever called an assault.

Why is this significant?

There were over 20 individuals convicted of assault in Manitowoc County between 1985 - 1995.

If there was only one person convicted of assault in that time period, this would be very significant. If the inmate the call was about had claimed to have committed a sexual assault, it would have been very significant.

The conspiracy folks claim that Colburn should have known that the caller was referring to Avery as the wrongfully convicted inmate, yet facts prove there were over 20 possibilities since the caller never called it a sexual assault.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

So here is my confession Sarah.... I borrowed the quote about the Puppy from Blackadder Goes Forth......

I agree with your sentiment that it is possible for people to hear the main points of a story second hand and then recount it as if first hand. The thing is, Dassey mentioned the hair cutting in his statement, but that only appears in the film version of Kiss The Girls, not the book.

IMHO he was lying to save himself as much Avery was protesting his innocence and claiming a stitch up. They both did not do enough to convince 12 people of either of their defences. Guilty. This link is a useful resource for the response to the Appeal Avery made..... Very interesting document that you will need some time to read.....

https://www.wicourts.gov/ca/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?content=pdf&seqNo=70129

 

[MysticJynx]

Reminder, because some apparently have forgotten the title of this thread:

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT THINK AVERY WAS FRAMED & EVIDENCE PLANTED - DISCUSS

If they are deserving of praise is up to you. My opinion does not matter.
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...enk-colborn-honored-work-avery-case/81639238/

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

If they are deserving of praise is up to you. My opinion does not matter.
http://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...enk-colborn-honored-work-avery-case/81639238/

Post Crescent. A very powerful global presence with no adverts on their website and no Click Candy..... Oh, Hang On......???

Avery is Guilty. So is Dassey. The odds of this being a successful Stitch Up, with all of the people that must have been involved, are more than a Hick in a Salvage Yard, winning the lottery......

 

[Limaes]

Colborn and Lenk were deposed as witnesses, not defendants. A lot of accusations and innuendo has been thrown at them but I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling evidence of these two, or anyone else, planting or tampering with evidence. Innuendo won't set anyone free or prove a point.

I think they did a good job, along with the rest of LE involved in this case, just as I think Steve Thomas did a great job on the JonBenet case. He too was accused of all sorts of things by Ramsey supporters.

It's astonishing that defense attorneys are legally permitted to slander members of LE and destroy their lives without being required to produce even a modicum of proof.

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[Limaes]

Thank you to Madeleine from me too



A lot of the old media links from the original thread on here no longer work, so it's definitely interesting to see how things were perceived and reported at the time.
If I'm honest though, the overall tone of the article disturbs me slightly, in as much as it feels just as biased towards the prosecution as MAM was towards the defense.

However, there are still a few interesting snippets in there and I wonder what else was reported at the time that's now been lost and forgotten about.
I'd love to know the provenance of the claim about where the RAV4 was parked. If it's true, it makes the bus driver's testimony unlikely (even though that really messes about with my theory on what happened!)

I have always struggled to take the bus driver's story as fact. It is quiet some distance from SA's to where the boys were dropped off. Its hard to fathom how a positive identification can be made.

Not sure if I believe she parked between the trailer and the garage. BoD claims to see her taking photos of the van and next seen her walking towards the trailer. I don't recall if he said where her car was parked.

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[Sarah]

What I've never understood is the emphasis conspiracy theorists have placed on the 1995 phone call answered by Sergeant Andy Colborn (who in 1995 was working as a corrections officer for the Manitowoc County Sheriff’s Office) from a detective in Brown County who said he had someone in custody who was claiming he "had committed an assault in Manitowoc County and someone else was in jail for it."

You know I've seen that clip of the deposition about a dozen times and the exact wording has never, ever dawned on me before.
Do we have anything from the Brown County detective with his recollection of the conversation?
I have a vague recollection of seeing it at some point, but I'm not sure if I'm just imagining it.

So here is my confession Sarah.... I borrowed the quote about the Puppy from Blackadder Goes Forth......

I agree with your sentiment that it is possible for people to hear the main points of a story second hand and then recount it as if first hand. The thing is, Dassey mentioned the hair cutting in his statement, but that only appears in the film version of Kiss The Girls, not the book.

IMHO he was lying to save himself as much Avery was protesting his innocence and claiming a stitch up. They both did not do enough to convince 12 people of either of their defences. Guilty. This link is a useful resource for the response to the Appeal Avery made..... Very interesting document that you will need some time to read.....

https://www.wicourts.gov/ca/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?content=pdf&seqNo=70129

Ahhhh - Blackadder LOL.
I should have recognised it :blushing:

I haven't seen the film version of 'Kiss the Girls' so hadn't really picked up on the hair cutting bit from that angle - I'll admit to just putting that down to a random thing that BD blurted out.
But I suppose it's also possible that if 'Kiss the Girls' was a hot topic amongst his peer group that bits of the film got conflated with the book in the re-telling. Neither is it impossible that he was recounting a real event.

Where I struggle with the last option though is the lack of physical evidence to corroborate his account.
Clean up in the garage? - yes, no doubt in my mind that the garage was cleaned.
Stabbing, slashing and hair cutting in the trailer? - I really have my doubts that the murder happened there at all, especially in the way described without leaving some trace behind.

My own confession is that I really haven't done a lot of reading for myself on Brendan's confession and trial, so I only have initial impressions based on snippets here and there.
Watching BD's interviews in full is currently still on my 'to do' list - and I've added the document you linked to it now as well.
I suspect I'll have some better considered opinions one way or the other when I (eventually) manage to work my way through all of that!

 

[Sarah]

Colborn and Lenk were deposed as witnesses, not defendants. A lot of accusations and innuendo has been thrown at them but I have yet to see anything even remotely resembling evidence of these two, or anyone else, planting or tampering with evidence. Innuendo won't set anyone free or prove a point.

I think they did a good job, along with the rest of LE involved in this case, just as I think Steve Thomas did a great job on the JonBenet case. He too was accused of all sorts of things by Ramsey supporters.

That's actually a really good point re: witnesses vs defendants and one worth bearing in mind.

I'm not sure that I'd agree that LE in general did a 'good' job in this case though.
I do see mistakes being made, things being hurried and methodology lacking - which sadly leaves evidence open to question.
Is this simply because they were woefully underequipped and inexperienced in dealing with a case of this sensitivity? I think that's part of it, but I can't hand on heart totally dismiss suspicions that one or two pieces of evidence may have been helped along - at least to the extent that I think it's right for some of it to be re-examined.

It's astonishing that defense attorneys are legally permitted to slander members of LE and destroy their lives without being required to produce even a modicum of proof.

Not only LE, it makes me uncomfortable to see some of the accusations around the web aimed at others in TH's immediate circle and the rest of the Avery clan.
Absolutely, there may be some unsavoury characters among that lot and yes, arguably some of them could have had a motive to do TH harm.
I've yet to see any convincing evidence other than speculation though and the bottom line is that they didn't ALL kill TH, so whichever way you look at it, innocent people are having their lives and reputations pulled apart in public.
That's one of the biggest issues I have with Zellner's tweets and the thinly veiled hints at who she believes is guilty.

 

[Sarah]

I have always struggled to take the bus driver's story as fact. It is quiet some distance from SA's to where the boys were dropped off. Its hard to fathom how a positive identification can be made.

Not sure if I believe she parked between the trailer and the garage. BoD claims to see her taking photos of the van and next seen her walking towards the trailer. I don't recall if he said where her car was parked.

I think I'd be more inclined to dismiss the bus driver's testimony if it didn't dove-tail so nicely into what the propane guy saw (and I do find him very credible)
FWIW I also think that a positive i.d. of a specific individual and a specific make of car would be impossible at that distance.
However, I think it would be easy enough to make out the colour and general shape/style of a vehicle.
I also think that you could identify somebody conducting a particular activity like taking photographs and get a good impression of their gender from that distance.

(Those two sightings combined with everything pointing to TH's final moments occurring at the yard, are what lead me to believe that she may well have left Avery's that day but returned soon after - accident in her car? popped back to fit in a photo of another car?)

 

[HastingsChi]

You know I've seen that clip of the deposition about a dozen times and the exact wording has never, ever dawned on me before.
Do we have anything from the Brown County detective with his recollection of the conversation?
I have a vague recollection of seeing it at some point, but I'm not sure if I'm just imagining it.

The only places I've seen it called a "sexual assault" is in media accounts which do not directly quote anyone, any evidence or anyone's deposition.

What really stood out to me is the fact that Avery's attorney did not ever categorize it as a "sexual assault" or "rape" in any of his questions to Colbourn. I was really surprised that he never attempted to imply or insinuate that the call was about a "sexual assault." This leads me to believe either Avery's attorney is incompetent or he knew that there was no evidence that the caller referred it as anything but an assault.

There's a pretty huge difference between the terms "assault" and "sexual assault" / "rape", especially as viewed by law enforcement.

 

[Sarah]

The only places I've seen it called a "sexual assault" is in media accounts which do not directly quote anyone, any evidence or anyone's deposition.

What really stood out to me is the fact that Avery's attorney did not ever categorize it as a "sexual assault" or "rape" in any of his questions to Colbourn. I was really surprised that he never attempted to imply or insinuate that the call was about a "sexual assault." This leads me to believe either Avery's attorney is incompetent or he knew that there was no evidence that the caller referred it as anything but an assault.

There's a pretty huge difference between the terms "assault" and "sexual assault" / "rape", especially as viewed by law enforcement.

Yes - absolutely massive difference between the two and very valid point about Avery's attorney.
I'm still slightly shocked that I'd never noticed it before.
I suppose I must have heard "sexual assault" in the media and just unconsciously slotted that extra word in when listening to it.