For Those Who Do Not Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[ZOOL]

Here's an initials syllabus:

TH = Teresa Halbach, murder victim
MH = Mike Halbach, brother of Teresa
RH = Ryan Hillegas, ex-boyfriend & friend of Teresa
SB = Scott Bloedorn, Teresa's roommate
PS = Pam Sturm, cousin of Teresa
NS = Nikole Sturm, daughter of Pam Sturm

SA = Steven Avery
BD = Brendan Dassey, nephew of SA
BJ = Barb Janda, Brendan's mother
ST = Scott Tadych, Barb's current husband
BoD = Bobby Dassey, brother of Brendan, son of Barb
KA = Karla Avery, cousin of Brendan Dassey
EA = Earl Avery, brother of Steven Avery
CA = Chuck Avery, brother of Charles Avery
JS = Jodi Stachowski, SA's ex-fiance

LE = law enforcement
KZ = Kathleen Zellner, Avery's new defense attorney
KK = Ken Kratz, former special prosecutor who prosecuted SA for TH's murder
PB = Penny Beernsten, victim of sexual assault in 1985, who mistakenly ID'd Steven Avery as her attacker

Thank you sincerely, Madeleine! The syllabus will come in handily. The DoD caught me by surprise!

 

[Coldpizza]

Here's an initials syllabus:

TH = Teresa Halbach, murder victim
MH = Mike Halbach, brother of Teresa
RH = Ryan Hillegas, ex-boyfriend & friend of Teresa
SB = Scott Bloedorn, Teresa's roommate
PS = Pam Sturm, cousin of Teresa
NS = Nikole Sturm, daughter of Pam Sturm

SA = Steven Avery
BD = Brendan Dassey, nephew of SA
BJ = Barb Janda, Brendan's mother
ST = Scott Tadych, Barb's current husband
BoD = Bobby Dassey, brother of Brendan, son of Barb
KA = Karla Avery, cousin of Brendan Dassey
EA = Earl Avery, brother of Steven Avery
CA = Chuck Avery, brother of Charles Avery
JS = Jodi Stachowski, SA's ex-fiance

LE = law enforcement
KZ = Kathleen Zellner, Avery's new defense attorney
KK = Ken Kratz, former special prosecutor who prosecuted SA for TH's murder
PB = Penny Beernsten, victim of sexual assault in 1985, who mistakenly ID'd Steven Avery as her attacker

Thank you for doing that, I copied to the case players thread.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ase-Players-Who-s-Who*-*No-Discussion-Thread*

 

[Limaes]

Have just been reading through the thread started here at Websleuths in 2005 when Teresa first went missing.

It contains articles that are no longer online and reading through these articles and comments, as this awful crime was unfolding, I now feel that CA knows more about that day than he claims.

I still feel that SA lured then murdered Teresa but I'm feeling it was more than just BD helping to cover up the crime.

Anyone have any thoughts regarding CA?

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[LifeCitizen]

I think CA was/is known for hassling women who came to the salvage yard, and EA got done for molesting his daughters.

The place was a cess pit. jmo.

 

[shadowraiths]

I know drugs can cause MANIA ( certain drugs, that is )

leading to; addiction,
be it gambling, shopping, alcohol, etc.

Right. The drugs most highly correlated with Hypersexual Dysfunction are stimulants such as methamphetamine. However, if you read the Disciplinary Hearing, the drugs he was addicted to were Ambien, Vicodin, and Xanax... all depressants. Moreover, if you read the complaint, you'll see that those complaints included inappropriate sexual comments, sexual harassment, and in one case, an alleged rape, that went back as far as July of 2008 and included a crime victim, a two social workers, a woman he prosecuted twice, and a law school graduate, who he had also previously prosecuted. And these are just the ones we know about.

Here is a 2012 NBC news report, wherein Kratz claimed he had been "struggling with sex addiction for years" and began using benzos in 2009. So, he obviously can't claim, "The devil..." erm, "the drugs, made me do it."

[video=youtube;SfkeEo_0Cuo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfkeEo_0Cuo[/video]​

 

[dexter75]

Nope

He sure can't.

Here is a 2012 NBC news report, wherein Kratz claimed he had been "struggling with sex addiction for years" and began using benzos in 2009. So, he obviously can't claim, "The devil..." erm, "the drugs, made me do it."

[video=youtube;SfkeEo_0Cuo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfkeEo_0Cuo[/video]​

 

[dexter75]

Thought is,

CA has been at the top of my suspect list, from the beginning.

Have just been reading through the thread started here at Websleuths in 2005 when Teresa first went missing.

It contains articles that are no longer online and reading through these articles and comments, as this awful crime was unfolding, I now feel that CA knows more about that day than he claims.

I still feel that SA lured then murdered Teresa but I'm feeling it was more than just BD helping to cover up the crime.

Anyone have any thoughts regarding CA?

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[Limaes]

I feel if he was involved, it was after the fact.

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[Limaes]

I think CA was/is known for hassling women who came to the salvage yard, and EA got done for molesting his daughters.

The place was a cess pit. jmo.

Some underestimate how dangerous that family can be. I honestly believe that if the Rav 4 had not been found, BD would have met with some unfortunate "accident".

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[Limaes]

If Teresa came to this door (the one with the concrete steps) it would have been very easy for him to get her into his bedroom.

 

[thelmadawg]

For those of us who do believe in SA's guilt, there's one thing that I'm curious about and would love to hear your thoughts on it.

> Do you think that events actually unfolded as laid out in BD's confession?
> And if not, how much involvement (if any) do you think BD had in the murder?

It's the thing that really disturbs me about this case . . .

If you watch the entire interview by the two detectives of BD, it seems clear he was telling the truth. It's hard to get through, because the detectives leave him sitting alone for long periods of time, but his lack of guile and knowledge of actual details are beyond question. That, together with the meeting with his mother just after were kind of a roadmap to what happened that day and evening. It's also a fascinating psychological study of a poor, mentally challenged young man doing horrible things at the behest of his uncle - yet showing no capacity to be horrified himself.

 

[Madeleine74]

I think BD did know things and do things that day, but where I have issues with his particular case is that I don't think he would have been involved at all were it not for the influence (insistence?) of SA. I don't think BD is a danger to society on his own, but he's able to be manipulated by others and doesn't seem to understand there are consequences to actions. So I can believe he very well might have been involved in some things that day/evening, but I think he was doing as he was told to do.

Thoughts?

 

[Limaes]

On his own, no BD would not have committed those crimes that day.

He should have taken a plea bargain and threw himself on the mercy of the court. He would have been out in his 30s and still have a chance at a life. The senior members of the Avery family sold him out to try to save SA.

I think he deserved jail time but do have a bit of empathy for a situation he found himself in and possibly had no control over.

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[Sarah]

Thank you all - and sorry to post a question and run.
(March is the end of the tax year in the UK, so work is taking over every waking moment right now!)

I'm still reading through and digesting but interesting to hear the different takes on BD's involvement.
IMO it's indisputable that BD assisted with a clean up in the garage, what I'm still undecided on is how complicit he was in anything that went before and whether he was even aware of what was being cleaned.

I think I'll take thelmadawg's advice and have a go at watching the interviews in their entirety, keeping the other perspectives in mind.

Madeleine / Limaes - I think you're absolutely correct though.
Whatever degree of involvement BD had I don't think he would ever have done it without being manipulated into it.

 

[thelmadawg]

I think BD did know things and do things that day, but where I have issues with his particular case is that I don't think he would have been involved at all were it not for the influence (insistence?) of SA. I don't think BD is a danger to society on his own, but he's able to be manipulated by others and doesn't seem to understand there are consequences to actions. So I can believe he very well might have been involved in some things that day/evening, but I think he was doing as he was told to do.

Thoughts?

I agree, but the sad issue with BD is that I'm thinking he has the mental capacity of about 7-9-years of age and likely won't go much farther. If so, he would have likely been victimized by others in any event sooner or later. Just sad.

 

[Madeleine74]

He's much further along than a 7/8 year old. I'd put him in the range of 14 to 16 emotionally with reading skills and verbal comprehension skills of maybe a 10 - 12 year old. He can read and write, though obviously not well. He's not a complete idiot who doesn't have a clue of basic life, he most certainly does. He can arrange to feed himself, dress himself, get from point A to point B. He has knowledge of more adult topics (like sex) and adult desires. He's not quite as compromised as some like to claim, but he is slow, and he can be gullible.

 

[pomegranate]

He's much further along than a 7/8 year old. I'd put him in the range of 14 to 16 emotionally with reading skills and verbal comprehension skills of maybe a 10 - 12 year old. He can read and write, though obviously not well. He's not a complete idiot who doesn't have a clue of basic life, he most certainly does. He can arrange to feed himself, dress himself, get from point A to point B. He has knowledge of more adult topics (like sex) and adult desires. He's not quite as compromised as some like to claim, but he is slow, and he can be gullible.

I'm not disputing this, but how do you know? I'm just curious.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm not disputing this, but how do you know? I'm just curious.

I had a brother (now deceased) who was similar to Brendan in IQ/presentation, maybe a few IQ pts higher, but they seemed quite similar. When I heard and saw Brendan's interviews, saw his writing, heard his phone calls, it was quite reminiscent of my brother at that same age. My brother's writing skills were a little bit better than Brendan's were/are. My brother was tested a lot throughout his childhood so I knew the various ratings and levels and when I saw/listened to Brendan, I mentally categorized where I thought Brendan might be in terms of emotional age, skills-age.

 

[Kilika71]

Yes, that too. However batteries, the AC compressor, and the pressurized gas tank, when put under extreme pressure, can most certainly explode.

Batteries almost never explode,the AC system only holds about 3 pounds of gas,and the fuel tank isn't pressurized and is punctured before crushing .

Once the car was crushed put on a truck sent to the scrap metal yard it would then be cut up and mixed with other crushed cars personally I think he was waiting on the truck because crushing just one car doesn't make much sense to to jmo

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[Madeleine74]

The more I read various theories proposed on SA being framed, ranging from the typical to the completely bizarre, the more I'm convinced there was no conspiracy or agenda to frame SA. I won't say mistakes weren't made along the way, because that's not all that uncommon in large cases, but a concerted effort to plant evidence (including body parts) all to get SA charged with a crime because he had sued the county? Just not seeing it and it's not because I refuse to see it... there just isn't any evidence anyone has been able to show. Lots of imagined evidence and imagined conspiracy, yes. Actual evidence, no.