For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[Limaes]

and to add to that, the same LE officers that were involved in the PB case either in 1985, or 2003 or somewhere in between, officers being deposed or to be deposed in a huge lawsuit literally within weeks/days of all of this happening, then they are investigating the 2005 case, in any way shape or form, if anyone is naive enough to believe there is no connection, then there is probably nothing left to be said IMO

As the saying goes...if you hear hoofprints in Central Park think horse, not zebra. If you continue to believe it's a zebra, that is your choice but until I see proof, my money is on the horse.

 

[dexter75]

As the saying goes...if you hear hoofprints in Central Park think horse, not zebra. If you continue to believe it's a zebra, that is your choice but until I see proof, my money is on the horse.

Never heard that saying😉

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[IDK]

As the saying goes...if you hear hoofprints in Central Park think horse, not zebra. If you continue to believe it's a zebra, that is your choice but until I see proof, my money is on the horse.

Go for it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[proudfootz]

Manitowoc LE has a history of wrongly charging Steven of crimes he didn't commit, so that would be the horse in this example.

Steven abducting and killing a stranger is the zebra in this story.

Yes, I'm betting it's a horse.

 

[Ozoner]

As the saying goes...if you hear hoofprints in Central Park think horse, not zebra. If you continue to believe it's a zebra, that is your choice but until I see proof, my money is on the horse.

(Snip)
*
If the torturing of animals, which is a sure sign of psychopathy, were punished the way it should it, Avery would be doing life without parole for burning the kitten to death, and TH would still be alive.

 

[Safeguard]

Manitowoc LE has a history of wrongly charging Steven of crimes he didn't commit, so that would be the horse in this example.

Steven abducting and killing a stranger is the zebra in this story.

Yes, I'm betting it's a horse.

Well put! :takeabow:

"If you hear hoof beats think horses" and if you hear "Bats in the belfry" think...uh...:thinking:

 

[proudfootz]

(snip)
*
If the torturing of animals, which is a sure sign of psychopathy, were punished the way it should it, Avery would be doing life without parole for burning the kitten to death, and TH would still be alive.

Sadly, even the fellow who came up with that 'theory' has disavowed it.

"For at least half a century, legend has told of a "triad" of ominous childhood behaviors: cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis, said to predict future violence."

"Forensic psychiatrist John Macdonald, is generally credited with "discovering" the triad."

"John Macdonald himself voiced later doubt about the triad's validity. After trying to test his own clinical theory, Macdonald reported in his 1968 book, Homicidal Threats, that he could find no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with firesetting, cruelty to animals, or enuresis."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

It looks like the 'confirmation bias' is on the other foot.

 

[dexter75]

Sadly, even the fellow who came up with that 'theory' has disavowed it.

"For at least half a century, legend has told of a "triad" of ominous childhood behaviors: cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis, said to predict future violence."

"Forensic psychiatrist John Macdonald, is generally credited with "discovering" the triad."

"John Macdonald himself voiced later doubt about the triad's validity. After trying to test his own clinical theory, Macdonald reported in his 1968 book, Homicidal Threats, that he could find no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with firesetting, cruelty to animals, or enuresis."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

It looks like the 'confirmation bias' is on the other foot.

Took the words right outta my mouth!
( well, the part about the TRIAD is SQUASH😉 )
YEP...disproven long ago..

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[missy1974]

Sadly, even the fellow who came up with that 'theory' has disavowed it.

"For at least half a century, legend has told of a "triad" of ominous childhood behaviors: cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis, said to predict future violence."

"Forensic psychiatrist John Macdonald, is generally credited with "discovering" the triad."

"John Macdonald himself voiced later doubt about the triad's validity. After trying to test his own clinical theory, Macdonald reported in his 1968 book, Homicidal Threats, that he could find no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with firesetting, cruelty to animals, or enuresis."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

It looks like the 'confirmation bias' is on the other foot.

uhmmm Where have you been for the last 11 months? LOL

 

[dexter75]

uhmmm Where have you been for the last 11 months? LOL

Omg right missy!!!
With each post of proudfootz I'm like
" yes! "
Usually thinking " that's exactly how our Missy would word that..yep..definitely been over that❤😉 "
It is good to see too, it's not just us/me who feels " that way or this way "
I love the input.
Love it more when someone has really done their homework & not just going off MaM..it's always a BONUS when they come out swinging ( figure of speech here😉 ) and their pov is fact based😉

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[missy1974]

Omg right missy!!!
With each post of proudfootz I'm like
" yes! "
Usually thinking " that's exactly how our Missy would word that..yep..definitely been over that❤�� "
It is good to see too, it's not just us/me who feels " that way or this way "
I love the input.
Love it more when someone has really done their homework & not just going off MaM..it's always a BONUS when they come out swinging ( figure of speech here�� ) and their pov is fact based��

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naaaa proudfootz is much better at wording it! LOL I wanted to respond last night and couldn't find a way to word it. We have gone through this before, and anyone that even remotely disagree's about the cat and what it tells us about someone is pretty much called an animal hater, so I try to stay away from it all together now. It should also be noted though that we have no knowledge that SA was cruel to animals as a child, he was a drunk adult, with 2 other drunk adults at the time of the cat incident. Should also be noted that 1 drunk walked into a police station and tattled on himself and the other drunk, only 1 drunk was charged.

Off to work I go.... I need to go feed my barn kitties, it's so cold, too cold for them to go mouse/bird hunting

 

[dexter75]

naaaa proudfootz is much better at wording it! LOL I wanted to respond last night and couldn't find a way to word it. We have gone through this before, and anyone that even remotely disagree's about the cat and what it tells us about someone is pretty much called an animal hater, so I try to stay away from it all together now. It should also be noted though that we have no knowledge that SA was cruel to animals as a child, he was a drunk adult, with 2 other drunk adults at the time of the cat incident. Should also be noted that 1 drunk walked into a police station and tattled on himself and the other drunk, only 1 drunk was charged.

Off to work I go.... I need to go feed my barn kitties, it's so cold, too cold for them to go mouse/bird hunting

Such a big heart❤

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[proudfootz]

naaaa proudfootz is much better at wording it! LOL I wanted to respond last night and couldn't find a way to word it. We have gone through this before, and anyone that even remotely disagree's about the cat and what it tells us about someone is pretty much called an animal hater, so I try to stay away from it all together now. It should also be noted though that we have no knowledge that SA was cruel to animals as a child, he was a drunk adult, with 2 other drunk adults at the time of the cat incident. Should also be noted that 1 drunk walked into a police station and tattled on himself and the other drunk, only 1 drunk was charged.

Off to work I go.... I need to go feed my barn kitties, it's so cold, too cold for them to go mouse/bird hunting

I like cats and can't stand bad things to happen to them.

Apparently Steven did pay a price for that incident, and spent some time in jail. It seems like a life sentence wasn't a likely outcome.

It's odd that people who are carping about the lawsuit involving the 1985 case should keep bringing up this cat case which is truly unrelated.

 

[missy1974]

I like cats and can't stand bad things to happen to them.

Apparently Steven did pay a price for that incident, and spent some time in jail. It seems like a life sentence wasn't a likely outcome.

It's odd that people who are carping about the lawsuit involving the 1985 case should keep bringing up this cat case which is truly unrelated.

I love my barn cats at work Unfortunately we lost a bunch in the early summer, so I only have a mama and her 2 kitties right now that stick close by, it's -20ish here right now (-4F), so made sure they got to a warm spot today!

 

[Safeguard]

I love my barn cats at work Unfortunately we lost a bunch in the early summer, so I only have a mama and her 2 kitties right now that stick close by, it's -20ish here right now (-4F), so made sure they got to a warm spot today!

I love hearing things like this. I LOVE that you support these animals, as needed, in a way that is respectful
non-intrusive, and not all, "we need to get you declawed and spayed and into a safe forever home!". ( I detest that term, "forever home" and also "re-homing"ect....)...

I don't think I'd have a cat for a pet now a days. I grew up with a variety of different pets. (My older brother was a zoo-keeper so had some interesting pets for sure!). We always had a cat or two, and they were always outdoor cats. They came and went as they pleased, and anyone who has ever seen a cat playing outside, can't deny that cats were born to be outside. They love to do what they do! It's a little riskier lifestyle to be sure, but I think the quality of a life matters most.

I feel sorry for most pet cats these days.

Sometimes I feel like this is what we do to kids now too. "Don't go outside. It's dangerous. Here's a Gameboy". meh.

Totally off topic, I know. But I love this poem because it reminds me of what it felt like to be free. I wrote this for my daughter, because she will never know, the kind of freedom from a fearful society I enjoyed as a child.

"I sit on laurel Mountain and the memories appear...
The little girl, that I once was, I see her playing here...

she picks the pink/white flowers, their fragrance cool and sweet...
she stops beside a berry bush, and has a bite to eat...

Bare toes wiggling in soft moss, are baked brown by the sun...
she watches birds fly over head and she begins to run...

along a dusty foot path made by little feet.
Singing in the morning mist her voice is high and sweet...

It's time for me to go now, the child I think will stay...
A happy little memory, of a summer yesterday."

 

[dexter75]

I love hearing things like this. I LOVE that you support these animals, as needed, in a way that is respectful
non-intrusive, and not all, "we need to get you declawed and spayed and into a safe forever home!". ( I detest that term, "forever home" and also "re-homing"ect....)...

I don't think I'd have a cat for a pet now a days. I grew up with a variety of different pets. (My older brother was a zoo-keeper so had some interesting pets for sure!). We always had a cat or two, and they were always outdoor cats. They came and went as they pleased, and anyone who has ever seen a cat playing outside, can't deny that cats were born to be outside. They love to do what they do! It's a little riskier lifestyle to be sure, but I think the quality of a life matters most.

I feel sorry for most pet cats these days.

Sometimes I feel like this is what we do to kids now too. "Don't go outside. It's dangerous. Here's a Gameboy". meh.

Totally off topic, I know. But I love this poem because it reminds me of what it felt like to be free. I wrote this for my daughter, because she will never know, the kind of freedom from a fearful society I enjoyed as a child.

"I sit on laurel Mountain and the memories appear...
The little girl, that I once was, I see her playing here...

she picks the pink/white flowers, their fragrance cool and sweet...
she stops beside a berry bush, and has a bite to eat...

Bare toes wiggling in soft moss, are baked brown by the sun...
she watches birds fly over head and she begins to run...

along a dusty foot path made by little feet.
Singing in the morning mist her voice is high and sweet...

It's time for me to go now, the child I think will stay...
A happy little memory, of a summer yesterday."

LOVE your poem:loveyou: Read it twice And no, sad as it is, our children will NEVER know the freedom we had as children

 

[dexter75]

I like cats and can't stand bad things to happen to them.

Apparently Steven did pay a price for that incident, and spent some time in jail. It seems like a life sentence wasn't a likely outcome.

It's odd that people who are carping about the lawsuit involving the 1985 case should keep bringing up this cat case which is truly unrelated.

Some great points made in the cat thread I LOVE ALL ANIMALS..use to chase the boys in the neighborhood with snakes:laughing: ( Hey, they were mere Garden snakes ) As much as I HATE what was done to that kitty...It doesn't make him a KILLER, period. ( Still think there's more to THAT story )

 

[missy1974]

Some great points made in the cat thread I LOVE ALL ANIMALS..use to chase the boys in the neighborhood with snakes:laughing: ( Hey, they were mere Garden snakes ) As much as I HATE what was done to that kitty...It doesn't make him a KILLER, period. ( Still think there's more to THAT story )

GMTA I was just in that thread reading and thought I would post the link for anyone that may not have read it yet. shadowraiths makes some great posts in it!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?301719-Let-s-talk-about-the-cat

 

[Safeguard]

LOVE your poem:loveyou: Read it twice And no, sad as it is, our children will NEVER know the freedom we had as children

Thank you! Never shared any of my writing outside my family circle, it's very personal to me.

But being here got me thinking, how SA and BD had their lives stolen and the whole world was (justifiably!) outraged, yet our children suffer a similar 'containment" and we feel good about it. Righteous even.

My little is almost 12 and I do allow her to act independently of me, probably more than some people would be comfortable with. But I will not have her growing up fearing that there is a murderer hiding in every bush she walks by...

No. She will not run the neighborhood, or play in the woods...like me and my friends did. But the vast majority of those of us who did are perfectly fine and even a bit more well adjusted than our more sheltered peers.

Thank God there was not a *record* of every thing we did! Every act of cruelty, or stupidity! People only see the act itself, not the regret or the lessons learned, those things are inside, only in our changed behavior can these things be seen. But the ONE and only time SA killed a cat....Uhggg.

 

[Safeguard]

GMTA I was just in that thread reading and thought I would post the link for anyone that may not have read it yet. shadowraiths makes some great posts in it!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?301719-Let-s-talk-about-the-cat

Wow! Thanks for the link. I haven't read the whole thread yet, ( but I intend to!), However I found your post compelling:

"I think I know what you are referring to Shadowraths. It shows that it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on...
December 5, 2005. That would be after SA was arrested for TH's murder. However, if you look at the bottom of the page it states it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on November 23, 1982.




"I also noticed Vogel was the prosecutor. Wilda was the storage room clerk. Ah...Gotcha moment? Barb's former ex-husband(s) were involved as well as Ken Peterson as well as a Lt. James Meidl. Looks like 2 former ex-husbands of Barbs were responsible for getting themselves off the line as well as getting SA put in prison. Then again, ST could be seen as embellishing his story as he went along. I see a pattern."

So there were at least two people who did the cat in, committing exactly the same actions, self reported, and yet ONLY SA was charged...

Some people on that thread got it right away and others were all, " OMG! He's a MURDERER! This proves he killed TH!" And it still plays on this way to this day... The very same posters, in fact, are STILL shouting "BUT HE KILLED A CAT ONCE!" LOL!