For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[missy1974]

Some people on that thread got it right away and others were all, " OMG! He's a MURDERER! This proves he killed TH!" And it still plays on this way to this day... The very same posters, in fact, are STILL shouting "BUT HE KILLED A CAT ONCE!" LOL!

RSBM

Keep reading in the thread, there was some confusion over the Yanda/Janda name LOL only 1 of Barb's husband's were involved (P. Dassey).

After reading that thread again, I couldn't help but find it interesting that some that could not get past the cat incident and believe that SA is guilty, even citing the 'cat incident' as a precursor to murder, also cannot seem to get that LE could absolutely have the same bias. Reading again that it was Ken Peterson who wrote that report, who moved up the ranks over the years, could also have had that same bias.

I also thought it was funny that I shared the same link in that thread that proudfootz shared yesterday LOL I find it interesting to go back and see where we were months ago. I remember when we had very little information and couldn't wait for the documents to come out! SkippTopp is awesome and I know he posted here a few times, I wish he had stuck around

ETA: I think you have mine and BCA's posts mixed up, I had to go look haha no big deal.... it's the minions, they are confusing LOL

 

[BigCityAccountant]

RSBM

Keep reading in the thread, there was some confusion over the Yanda/Janda name LOL only 1 of Barb's husband's were involved (P. Dassey).

After reading that thread again, I couldn't help but find it interesting that some that could not get past the cat incident and believe that SA is guilty, even citing the 'cat incident' as a precursor to murder, also cannot seem to get that LE could absolutely have the same bias. Reading again that it was Ken Peterson who wrote that report, who moved up the ranks over the years, could also have had that same bias.

I also thought it was funny that I shared the same link in that thread that proudfootz shared yesterday LOL I find it interesting to go back and see where we were months ago. I remember when we had very little information and couldn't wait for the documents to come out! SkippTopp is awesome and I know he posted here a few times, I wish he had stuck around

ETA: I think you have mine and BCA's posts mixed up, I had to go look haha no big deal.... it's the minions, they are confusing LOL

.
Oh Gosh Geezzz...What did I post...LOL???

..and by the way....

You can reference the cat killing in 1982...but don't EVER mention the 1985 incident....

 

[proudfootz]

RSBM

Keep reading in the thread, there was some confusion over the Yanda/Janda name LOL only 1 of Barb's husband's were involved (P. Dassey).

After reading that thread again, I couldn't help but find it interesting that some that could not get past the cat incident and believe that SA is guilty, even citing the 'cat incident' as a precursor to murder, also cannot seem to get that LE could absolutely have the same bias. Reading again that it was Ken Peterson who wrote that report, who moved up the ranks over the years, could also have had that same bias.

I also thought it was funny that I shared the same link in that thread that proudfootz shared yesterday LOL I find it interesting to go back and see where we were months ago. I remember when we had very little information and couldn't wait for the documents to come out! SkippTopp is awesome and I know he posted here a few times, I wish he had stuck around

ETA: I think you have mine and BCA's posts mixed up, I had to go look haha no big deal.... it's the minions, they are confusing LOL

It could well be I originally got the link to the article from you. I don't keep track of who posted the links I find to be valuable, but I've read a lot of threads where this case has been discussed. It could also have been on reddit or 2p2.

Now if I was apt to see a conspiracy in everything, I'd wonder about how three people commit a crime and only one goes to jail for it and has to wear the Scarlet C for the rest of his life.

 

[Safeguard]

RSBM

Keep reading in the thread, there was some confusion over the Yanda/Janda name LOL only 1 of Barb's husband's were involved (P. Dassey).

After reading that thread again, I couldn't help but find it interesting that some that could not get past the cat incident and believe that SA is guilty, even citing the 'cat incident' as a precursor to murder, also cannot seem to get that LE could absolutely have the same bias. Reading again that it was Ken Peterson who wrote that report, who moved up the ranks over the years, could also have had that same bias.

I also thought it was funny that I shared the same link in that thread that proudfootz shared yesterday LOL I find it interesting to go back and see where we were months ago. I remember when we had very little information and couldn't wait for the documents to come out! SkippTopp is awesome and I know he posted here a few times, I wish he had stuck around

ETA: I think you have mine and BCA's posts mixed up, I had to go look haha no big deal.... it's the minions, they are confusing LOL

Yeah, sorry that post was all kinds of messed up... My laptop has been freezing up lately.. (don't you just love when you type a word and sometime or other, it shows up on the screen?).

So switching between windows for accuracy was not an option last night lol! Proper cred to BCA though! (but yaass those minions hahaha!)

I am noticing the confirmation bias you mention. There are those that would like to see SA get the death penalty for the cat incident alone! I think I read that thread really early on, but the cat thing, quickly became to me, what those burn barrels are to you lol! Like, " if one more person mentions that cat!" That's why I just started posting, "because...Steven Avery...he killed a cat once!" LOL

It's as if, well he did kill a cat so therefore, he's already a murderer.

I think that email, about the whole family needing to be exterminated, (so to speak), is chilling. And that there are those, that agree with that assessment is beyond disturbing.

 

[Safeguard]

Just to play devils advocate for a minute,

I'm sure it's easier for those of us who don't live in that area, to be more compassionate towards the Avery's and Co...
("Familiarity breeds contempt" is a thing).

Consider; although the Avery's do contribute a needed service to the community, in their business, their definitely not as much of a positive, as say... the Bernsteins are.

Giving off an antisocial vibe, probably won't endear you to your community, however benign that posture might actually be.

You see the same thing with the homeless.

Social activist find it easy to get all up in arms, about the treatment of the homeless, but they don't often have to live in the areas where they congregate.

There are some homeless that are mentally ill. They can be combative, and scary. You will often find needles, nip bottles, condoms and other unsanitory conditions proliferating those areas. It sucks even to walk through there. It just does.

I don't think it's helpful to just dismiss legitimate concerns people might have about the Avery's but neither does it give them the right to try and destroy them.

But it does seem as if LE in Manitowoc Wisconsin wanted to do exactly that. Particularly, with regards to Steven.

 

[dexter75]

Yeah, sorry that post was all kinds of messed up... My laptop has been freezing up lately.. (don't you just love when you type a word and sometime or other, it shows up on the screen?).

So switching between windows for accuracy was not an option last night lol! Proper cred to BCA though! (but yaass those minions hahaha!)

I am noticing the confirmation bias you mention. There are those that would like to see SA get the death penalty for the cat incident alone! I think I read that thread really early on, but the cat thing, quickly became to me, what those burn barrels are to you lol! Like, " if one more person mentions that cat!" That's why I just started posting, "because...Steven Avery...he killed a cat once!" LOL

It's as if, well he did kill a cat so therefore, he's already a murderer.

I think that email, about the whole family needing to be exterminated, (so to speak), is chilling. And that there are those, that agree with that assessment is beyond disturbing.

Omg..bias and everything you and Missy have stated on that topic thus far! ( tbh, it's all I thought of yesterday after reading here..again )
I don't have much time to get as in depth as some of you do, thank you!
It is very interesting to look back on older posts my fellow minions😉
It's been a long road for sure😉

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[dexter75]

.
Oh Gosh Geezzz...What did I post...LOL???

..and by the way....

You can reference the cat killing in 1982...but don't EVER mention the 1985 incident....

❤ you guys!!

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[dexter75]

Wow! Thanks for the link. I haven't read the whole thread yet, ( but I intend to!), However I found your post compelling:

"I think I know what you are referring to Shadowraths. It shows that it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on...
December 5, 2005. That would be after SA was arrested for TH's murder. However, if you look at the bottom of the page it states it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on November 23, 1982.




"I also noticed Vogel was the prosecutor. Wilda was the storage room clerk. Ah...Gotcha moment? Barb's former ex-husband(s) were involved as well as Ken Peterson as well as a Lt. James Meidl. Looks like 2 former ex-husbands of Barbs were responsible for getting themselves off the line as well as getting SA put in prison. Then again, ST could be seen as embellishing his story as he went along. I see a pattern."

So there were at least two people who did the cat in, committing exactly the same actions, self reported, and yet ONLY SA was charged...

Some people on that thread got it right away and others were all, " OMG! He's a MURDERER! This proves he killed TH!" And it still plays on this way to this day... The very same posters, in fact, are STILL shouting "BUT HE KILLED A CAT ONCE!" LOL!

This.

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[dexter75]

Wow! Thanks for the link. I haven't read the whole thread yet, ( but I intend to!), However I found your post compelling:

"I think I know what you are referring to Shadowraths. It shows that it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on...
December 5, 2005. That would be after SA was arrested for TH's murder. However, if you look at the bottom of the page it states it was recorded with the Manitowoc County Clerk on November 23, 1982.




"I also noticed Vogel was the prosecutor. Wilda was the storage room clerk. Ah...Gotcha moment? Barb's former ex-husband(s) were involved as well as Ken Peterson as well as a Lt. James Meidl. Looks like 2 former ex-husbands of Barbs were responsible for getting themselves off the line as well as getting SA put in prison. Then again, ST could be seen as embellishing his story as he went along. I see a pattern."

So there were at least two people who did the cat in, committing exactly the same actions, self reported, and yet ONLY SA was charged...

Some people on that thread got it right away and others were all, " OMG! He's a MURDERER! This proves he killed TH!" And it still plays on this way to this day... The very same posters, in fact, are STILL shouting "BUT HE KILLED A CAT ONCE!" LOL!

No doubt in my mind there was a pattern..it's all there in black and white.

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[dexter75]

Thank you! Never shared any of my writing outside my family circle, it's very personal to me.

But being here got me thinking, how SA and BD had their lives stolen and the whole world was (justifiably!) outraged, yet our children suffer a similar 'containment" and we feel good about it. Righteous even.

My little is almost 12 and I do allow her to act independently of me, probably more than some people would be comfortable with. But I will not have her growing up fearing that there is a murderer hiding in every bush she walks by...

No. She will not run the neighborhood, or play in the woods...like me and my friends did. But the vast majority of those of us who did are perfectly fine and even a bit more well adjusted than our more sheltered peers.

Thank God there was not a *record* of every thing we did! Every act of cruelty, or stupidity! People only see the act itself, not the regret or the lessons learned, those things are inside, only in our changed behavior can these things be seen. But the ONE and only time SA killed a cat....Uhggg.

Our girls are the same age❤ I absolutely feel the same way..my girl is smart and she's street smart. She could probably outsmart most adults in today's world. ( make em see stars too..she's got a palm strike & round house like no other ) Helicopter parent I am not.
Back to the topic at hand..
Yes, I for one am a " leave the past in the past " kind of girl.
Folks I've met wouldn't guess in a million years all I've been through😉

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[Safeguard]

Yes, our girls our the same age, (Hense the Alka seltzer, instead of the Highball!)
I don't smother, but I have a harder time, more anxiety than our parents probably did. I just try not to contaminate her with my issues.

She had a school friend over to hang out, one day and the friends mom,(whom I'd never met before), texted me to let me know she would be staying with her daughter the whole visit. They were nice people, but towards the end of the visit, the poor kid was almost pleading, "mom can I stay by myself for a little while"? I refuse to be that kind of parent.

 

[Safeguard]

Well. I read the whole cat thread, and I see I made the last post on it, so I probably saw it late, and didn't go over the whole thread at the time.

Wow. We have really become more sophisticated in our analysis of this case for sure!

Shadowwraiths summed it up for me, about the cat issue when she posted rs/bbm:

In reality, and from a psychological standpoint, the cat incident simply does not factor into the equation, where this case is concerned.

Also this post strikes me as very, very accurate rs/bbm:

Notably, the cat incident is repeatedly raised to support not only the prosecutor's view that the man is guilty but various participant's views, as well. Moreover, the prosecutor has escalated his embellishment, in a recent interview, now proclaiming that the burning cat escaped the fire and that SA caught him and put him back in the fire. There is absolutely no reason for him to do this. That is, unless he's trying to poison public opinion of SA, as he did with the lurid faux rape/torture story he told the media.

And finally, consider this very thread. People being accused of minimizing the cat incident. Others pointing to it as proof positive that people who torture/kill animals are sociopaths and at increased risk for murdering people.

Otherwise put? If the cat incident is a flashpoint that plays a role with regard to discussants views of SA's guilt or innocence, how much more so does it play a role within the MCSD, whose very leader adamantly refuses to believe that SA was innocent of the 1985 rape?

And this one was hilarious and also true bbm:

Kratz has mentioned the cat so many times he's starting to grow whiskers. Not to mention how many others have discussed it and the cat has its own thread. That cat will haunt SA forever!

 

[Limaes]

The torturing of the cat as a precursor all comes down to opinion. It is not an exact science. Bundy, Dahmer, De Salvo, Brenda Ann Spencer, BTK Killer plus more all tortured animals prior to turning to humans. Imo, this is not something that can be ignored or downplayed. SA's juvenile records are closed, so we don't even know for sure if the cat was the first.

BTW, three people did not pick the cat up and throw it on the fire. Only one did, even SA admits that. Just because others were there doesn't mean they physically took part and one of them was disturbed by it and went to the cops IIRC. The story wasn't embellished by anybody, the full story came out because MaM didn't bother with it.

Imo, his violent history against women, and the method he used is a lot more telling of his character, or lack of. Running someone (and their baby) into a ditch and attempting to abduct them at gunpoint is a very serious offense. Add the cat torturing, brutal assaults and Teresa's murder and you have a dangerous individual who should never be released into society ever again imo.

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[Limaes]

These conspiracy theorists suffer from cofirmation bias so severely that trying to reason with them is probably pointless.
*
If the torturing of animals, which is a sure sign of psychopathy, were punished the way it should it, Avery would be doing life without parole for burning the kitten to death, and TH would still be alive.

He should have also done more time for the attempted abduction using a weapon.

 

[Limaes]

Sadly, even the fellow who came up with that 'theory' has disavowed it.

"For at least half a century, legend has told of a "triad" of ominous childhood behaviors: cruelty to animals, firesetting, and enuresis, said to predict future violence."

"Forensic psychiatrist John Macdonald, is generally credited with "discovering" the triad."

"John Macdonald himself voiced later doubt about the triad's validity. After trying to test his own clinical theory, Macdonald reported in his 1968 book, Homicidal Threats, that he could find no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with firesetting, cruelty to animals, or enuresis."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/witness/201205/homicidal-triad-predictor-violence-or-urban-myth

It looks like the 'confirmation bias' is on the other foot.

1968? Really? There has been significant research on the subject since then LOL. Some agree, some don't. As I said earlier, it is not an exact science. It is opinions just like here at WS.

 

[dexter75]

The torturing of the cat as a precursor all comes down to opinion. It is not an exact science. Bundy, Dahmer, De Salvo, Brenda Ann Spencer, BTK Killer plus more all tortured animals prior to turning to humans. Imo, this is not something that can be ignored or downplayed. SA's juvenile records are closed, so we don't even know for sure if the cat was the first.

BTW, three people did not pick the cat up and throw it on the fire. Only one did, even SA admits that. Just because others were there doesn't mean they physically took part and one of them was disturbed by it and went to the cops IIRC. The story wasn't embellished by anybody, the full story came out because MaM didn't bother with it.

Imo, his violent history against women, and the method he used is a lot more telling of his character, or lack of. Running someone (and their baby) into a ditch and attempting to abduct them at gunpoint is a very serious offense. Add the cat torturing, brutal assaults and Teresa's murder and you have a dangerous individual who should never be released into society ever again imo.

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I haven't read here anywhere where any member has ignored/downplayed the cat incident.
IMO many of us are simply saying the incident doesn't make him a murderer & most seem to agree there was ( and continues to be ) BIAS...a lot of biased folks because of it.

1968? Really? There has been significant research on the subject since then LOL. Some agree, some don't. As I said earlier, it is not an exact science. It is opinions just like here at WS.

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[Safeguard]

I haven't read here anywhere where any member has ignored/downplayed the cat incident.
IMO many of us are simply saying the incident doesn't make him a murderer & most seem to agree there was ( and continues to be ) BIAS...a lot of biased folks because of it.




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Same thing with the so called "attempted abduction" and that whole incident... Seriously milked for drama.

Family fued, lot a he said, she said, no abduction attempt ever made, gun was empty... Not saying it wasn't a stupid move by SA, but SM was likely in more danger from her own frequent drunk driving ( which she herself proundly attested to on the stand!)

Babies and kittens used as pawns...

 

[CoolJ]

1968? Really? There has been significant research on the subject since then LOL. Some agree, some don't. As I said earlier, it is not an exact science. It is opinions just like here at WS.

1968 just goes to show how along ago the triad theory had been debunked.

Your right it is just opinions. Some have their uninformed laymans opinion vs. Expert opinion.

The cat incident is irrelevant. None of us even know the true details of how that incident went down. Probably another set up to get SA behind bars. Looks like they have been trying to do that to him his whole life.

I am firmly convinced there is another "incident" that none of us have even heard about yet, that started this whole "MCSO vs. Avery's feud" decades ago. And they have been trying to make Steven pay for it ever since. JMO

 

[missy1974]

I think you might be right CoolJ, there may be something else that we don't know about, something that started all of this.

 

[proudfootz]

1968? Really? There has been significant research on the subject since then LOL. Some agree, some don't. As I said earlier, it is not an exact science. It is opinions just like here at WS.

It is not a science at all.

It is pseudo-science:

"no statistically significant association between homicide perpetrators and early problems with... cruelty to animals"

No means no.