Forensic Astrology - GENERAL

[Tuba]

21merc7, that terrorist group Al Quaida on the Southern Arabian Peninsula is one source of threat because the locale corresponds to the Mercury - Mars - Pluto conjunction. We need to guard our northern border with vigilance.

 

[Puglover]

Tuba, Many citizens appear to be worried about President Obama leaving for ten days and all the security that he is taking with him. The money being spent on his trip since the country is in bad shape finacially. I was just wondering if any astrologer would know anything about how the people of the US will be affected? Having said this, will the citizens have as much protection against the enemy? BTW, my friend is sensing that something really bad is going to happen to the US. A terrorist attack or something else.

 

[Leomoon80]

Leomoon80, Whenever you get time, I have some questions. Even though I wrote what you stated, I am not asking in reference to this person, I am wondering in general. Please don't take time away from something else for this. Possibly you could even direct me to a site on the web to look this up.

You said:

Part of Fortune conjuncts Moira and opposes Uranus (the separation of the body to the spirit and separating from the earth plane….and then Part of Fortune also squares the Ascendent, (the physical as he was known to the family)

------------------------

I would like to know a little more information pertaining to this. Are you saying that the charts do show that the spirit leaving the body and earth? Does this show this on everyone who dies? Also I am wondering what the last part means...

and then Part of Fortune also squares the Ascendent, (the physical as he was known to the family).

------------------------------
Another question that I have is do the charts ever show any spirits of others around people? Some people say that they are haunted by an entity.

Astrology is a study of symbols and how they are then related to the charts . Many of the myths surrounding the asteroids and even the planets came from the Greeks & Roman cultures, and before that time (Sumerians,Chaldeans, Persia ) , come down to us today, which we employ in our craft.

Symbolically, the Moira is a group called the "Fates"Here is a link or two that might explain better:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae[/ame]

Definition: Moira is the name of a single goddess of fate in Greek mythology. Together the three goddesses were known as the Moirai. The Fates are:
Clotho who is depicted with a spindle who weaves the thread of life
Lachesis depicted with a scroll or globe, and measures out the length of the life
Atropos depicted with a pair of scales or shears. She cuts the thread when the time is ready

As to when the time is ready?
That is a Philosophical viewpoint and not everyone agrees.
The Vedic Astrologers believe that they can see the death in the charts...as they believe "it is written" there.
The Tropical or Western Astrologers may disagree......as they believe in Free Will of the soul itself, which directs the ego.
I see this variance as primarily based on religious culture ( free will in the Christianity part of the world the Western influence vs Vedic Eastern influence, whose culture is primarily Buddhist or no time but one) Perhaps the truth lies between the two and in the two and aren't so different at all once we understand science better (quantum physics)

So, as Astrologers go, there is variance and as a matter of principle, we normally do not give our opinion as to when the death may occur, although we perhaps may see indicators in the natal chart as to length of life
In Vedic they have definite benchmarks (younger like under 30, from 30-50 and then from 50 to older age) for instance.
I don't recall their exact benchmarks, but it's in 3 groups.

I don't know that I truly believe this, but I watch and observe anyway.

I'm more interested in the primary understanding of a study of Quantum Physics and see what more is gained in this area as to time itself. As to time, life and death and their relative relationships.

Again, this is a Philosophical question primarily,....coupled with Astrological symbols.

I have spoken to the best of 2 Vedic Astrologers concerning the onset of my own daughter's death..and one was completely wrong and didn't see it coming when he was the PREMIER in his field (many books out and an entire system built around his credentials) whereas the other was the more correct (within a year) using his own tool of choice and he was the outcast in a sense.
Everyone is different and Philosophies vary too. Sometimes our own egos get in the way of prediction and perhaps that is why the premier guy got it wrong. Afterall, Astrology is primarily an Art coupled with science based on astronomy. But still depends on our own personal insights with the tools we employ.

As for your other questions?
The Ascendent we use as how the person is seen by others, whereas the Sun or the is the Ego self. The Id or part you identify with while alive.

http://www.cafeastrology.com/risingsignsascendant.html

And yes, I do believe that the charts at the time of your death will reflect the spirit leaving the body. The old axiom, "As above so below" speaks to the synchronization of the physical and the celestial and spiritual.

Said to be a Hermetic (Hermes) phrase from antiquity.

As for ghosts?
This is again, quite a matter of Metaphysical Philosophy and religious values and beliefs.

Personally I do not believe in hauntings, but I do believe that the spirit goes on. Perhaps on the Astral Realms, is when you can be in touch after death if the conditions allow (are correct) vibrationally and usually the best place is in the dream state Not the mediumistic state. (imo)
But a direct connection in the dream state with your loved ones for truer answers or connections with the Higher self
(my own belief) is the same as Jesus gave "He will meet you within" the same idea. Go within, not without for the connection otherwise, you will get static, imo.

(you may wish to google Lessons Astrology. for terms, definitions, etc. you have read in the readings) for instance, the Part of Fortune, has many online links available too.

Hope I helped a little bit

 

[Puglover]

Astrology is a study of symbols and how they are then related to the charts . Many of the myths surrounding the asteroids and even the planets came from the Greeks & Roman cultures, and before that time (Sumerians,Chaldeans, Persia ) , come down to us today, which we employ in our craft.

Symbolically, the Moira is a group called the "Fates"Here is a link or two that might explain better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae

Definition: Moira is the name of a single goddess of fate in Greek mythology. Together the three goddesses were known as the Moirai. The Fates are:
Clotho who is depicted with a spindle who weaves the thread of life
Lachesis depicted with a scroll or globe, and measures out the length of the life
Atropos depicted with a pair of scales or shears. She cuts the thread when the time is ready

As to when the time is ready?
That is a Philosophical viewpoint and not everyone agrees.
The Vedic Astrologers believe that they can see the death in the charts...as they believe "it is written" there.
The Tropical or Western Astrologers may disagree......as they believe in Free Will of the soul itself, which directs the ego.
I see this variance as primarily based on religious culture ( free will in the Christianity part of the world the Western influence vs Vedic Eastern influence, whose culture is primarily Buddhist or no time but one) Perhaps the truth lies between the two and in the two and aren't so different at all once we understand science better (quantum physics)

So, as Astrologers go, there is variance and as a matter of principle, we normally do not give our opinion as to when the death may occur, although we perhaps may see indicators in the natal chart as to length of life
In Vedic they have definite benchmarks (younger like under 30, from 30-50 and then from 50 to older age) for instance.
I don't recall their exact benchmarks, but it's in 3 groups.

I don't know that I truly believe this, but I watch and observe anyway.

I'm more interested in the primary understanding of a study of Quantum Physics and see what more is gained in this area as to time itself. As to time, life and death and their relative relationships.

Again, this is a Philosophical question primarily,....coupled with Astrological symbols.

I have spoken to the best of 2 Vedic Astrologers concerning the onset of my own daughter's death..and one was completely wrong and didn't see it coming when he was the PREMIER in his field (many books out and an entire system built around his credentials) whereas the other was the more correct (within a year) using his own tool of choice and he was the outcast in a sense.
Everyone is different and Philosophies vary too. Sometimes our own egos get in the way of prediction and perhaps that is why the premier guy got it wrong. Afterall, Astrology is primarily an Art coupled with science based on astronomy. But still depends on our own personal insights with the tools we employ.

As for your other questions?
The Ascendent we use as how the person is seen by others, whereas the Sun or the is the Ego self. The Id or part you identify with while alive.

http://www.cafeastrology.com/risingsignsascendant.html

And yes, I do believe that the charts at the time of your death will reflect the spirit leaving the body. The old axiom, "As above so below" speaks to the synchronization of the physical and the celestial and spiritual.

Said to be a Hermetic (Hermes) phrase from antiquity.

As for ghosts?
This is again, quite a matter of Metaphysical Philosophy and religious values and beliefs.

Personally I do not believe in hauntings, but I do believe that the spirit goes on. Perhaps on the Astral Realms, is when you can be in touch after death if the conditions allow (are correct) vibrationally and usually the best place is in the dream state Not the mediumistic state. (imo)
But a direct connection in the dream state with your loved ones for truer answers or connections with the Higher self
(my own belief) is the same as Jesus gave "He will meet you within" the same idea. Go within, not without for the connection otherwise, you will get static, imo.

(you may wish to google Lessons Astrology. for terms, definitions, etc. you have read in the readings) for instance, the Part of Fortune, has many online links available too.

Hope I helped a little bit

Thanks so much for so much work. I still don't get it about and then Part of Fortune also squares the Ascendent, (the physical as he was known to the family).

I don't know if I am correct or not in this part, but I am thinking that maybe what it is referencing is the physical body that is left on earth. It is just like an empty shell. So even though the body is there, that is not what the person who lived was. I don't know if I got it correct or not.

I will am going to read up on it. Thanks so much for all that you do. Also I was reading the thread about the fires, and it is so nice for you to try to help out in the situation knowing that you are a very caring person. I always enjoy reading your posts very much. :angel:

 

[Curious Me]

Go under the bed on Dec. 13th and 14th?

Would you believe I am trying to schedule a dental surgery in Dec using what I can gleam from the astrologers? Not the 13th or 14th then as I understand it.

 

[Leomoon80]

Ref:

I still don't get it about and then Part of Fortune also squares the Ascendent, (the physical as he was known to the family).

I don't know if I am correct or not in this part, but I am thinking that maybe what it is referencing is the physical body that is left on earth. It is just like an empty shell. So even though the body is there, that is not what the person who lived was. I don't know if I got it correct or not.

Actually, we don't have to try to understand this in a metaphysical way, just to say the Ascendent is the physical entity, (born a particular point in time), and is the part of the ego that is shown to the world, whereas the Sun is the part that is the ego itself ....not necessarily showing the world what it is thinking, being and feeling.
The Ascendent is the Mask we wear some might say.

I am Cancer Rising, a water sign, and therefore, that is my Ascendant.
I believe however I am very caring, compassionate and as you say, even loving to my fellow man
however, I also have a Cardinal Capricorn Sun sign.. ..This then might suggest that the Sun is also a part that I resonate well with
hopefully the better parts of the sign.
The Moon's sign is another very important sign we evaluate with a person's life. It rules one's emotions.
So it can be a very important part of one's entire makeup.

Each sign has a grade we might assess as 0-10 good parts and bad we may assign to that sign.


So the Ascendant has nothing then to do with a shell in a corporal sense. As long as one is alive biologically that is.

It's still a corporal body until one dies.
Then the ego dissolves eventually,if one studies Buddhism or believes we move on to higher realms.

The ASC = the person at his time of birth a real person- a real entity born at a specific point in time and space
The POF = An "Arabic Lot" or one of many devises to understanding man's place on this earth.
This one termed, Pars Fortuna
another termed Part of Spirit

The aspects or angles one to the other such as a Square from the Part of Fortune to the ASCendant, can then make a life quite unfortunate as to how one feels about himself, or is seen by others. Usually a square indicates an internal problem and the opposition external to the self.

Not everyone is so lucky as another might be in one area or another. Life has many areas of fortune, we need to search them out.
Some are unfortunate in looks, health, beauty, but very fortunate in mental acumen and
family's love.
I suppose it's what we choose to do with what we are given that helps us overcome.


The Arabic Lots or Parts?

They all relate to the physical natal chart until we die. Having to do with the Solar birth of a human being., and calculated by various formulas having to do with the symbols of the planets, the Ascendant must be known , otherwise, we cannot know the formula without it. So time of one's birth is essential in order to calculate them.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_parts[/ame]

 

[ScorpRising]

I try very hard to understand my own chart... and I know requesting interpretations of my own chart is not allowed but since it's what I'm familiar with, I'll use it as my example...

So... with Scorpio rising, the world sees my Scorpio traits but with my sun in Pisces (4th), that is who I truly am and my Taurus moon (7th) rules my emotions?

My POF in Virgo (10th) shows my place on Earth?

I'm sorry, just trying to understand. So many books on the shelf, so little time...

 

[Tuba]

You have it just right. The Part of Fortune is generally regarded as where the parts all come together because it is the Ascendant or rising Sign degree + the Moon - the Sun. It is definitely a point of luck. And it is a blessing to have it in House 10 like you do because that puts you in touch with your aims, favors your reputation and is a leg up for your career.

 

[Tuba]

Tonight and tomorrow night, we can enjoy the North Taurids meteor showers. The meteors are falling at a rate of seven per hour and are best seen at midnight and after, no matter where you live in the States. November 17 through 19, watch for the Leonids showers at the same late hour.

 

[Puglover]

I am looking at the chart that Leomoon80 post #38 of the thread 2 case briefings page 2. LE break down the Door of Kidnapper I have wondered for a while and have not been about to figure out what that symbol in Scorpio is and what it represents. It is like a v with an s over top of it. Can you please explain to me what it is and what it represents?

 

[Leomoon80]

I am looking at the chart that Leomoon80 post #38 of the thread 2 case briefings page 2. LE break down the Door of Kidnapper I have wondered for a while and have not been about to figure out what that symbol in Scorpio is and what it represents. It is like a v with an s over top of it. Can you please explain to me what it is and what it represents?

The Sun in the 12th represents the focus of the chart itself,….the event of the police breaking down the door. Or we may say it's the kidnapper himself with the child in hiding.
Vesta in the 12th is the child Sarah, the virginal child who will be rescued at this time from the depths (12th ) or hidden place.

We see the Sun as with Vesta in a critical place (by house) as well as a critical degree, often termed the "evil degree" when near 18-19 Scorpio.

The 12th house is the symbol of a captivity…for any planets in the 12th do not see the light of day, they are hidden in this house, just as surely as the child was hidden away from view in the basement.

Vesta in mythology, “The Vestial Virgins” were seen as very special women in Roman days, and even Ceasar consulted one or more of them as did Mark Antony before any war as they were considered “purity and virginal”

IF a Vestial Virgin, in her temple was found out to have been with a man, she would need to then give her life for they were to remain for life, “undefiled”

From "Mythic Astrology" by Ariel Guttman and Kenneth Johnson, we learn (page 117) that "They enjoyed the most extraordinary privileges of any religious order in the RomanEmpire. If a Vestal encountered a prisoner on his way to execution, she could set him free.
Mark Antony had to secure Cesars's will from the Vestal Virgins and the temple, before he could read it aloud in his famous oration over Caesar's corpse,

A Vestial Virgin who broke her vow of chastity could in effect be buried alive, hence, with this privileged life came quite a grave life choice. Perhaps like nun would have been seen in the Catholic Church, but not murdered if she left the church today.


It’s interesting that the Paradigm of life that we all participate in, has to do with Archetypes we all have Collectively taken on as reality.

The Vesta symbol is an Archetype, just like the Sun and the Moon or father (Sun) and mother(Moon) might be seen in a child’s natal chart.
It is an Asteroid which is related to Venus, once herself considered a goddess.


Life is indeed a paradigm.

 

[Puglover]

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone especially to the astrologers. Word can't describe how I feel about the hard work that you do because you care. I am amazed at your knowledge. I know that you work very hard when you could be doing other things. Enjoy your Thanksgiving and May God Bless All of you.

I am also most thankful to Tricia for providing us with a wonderful site to try to help others.


Enjoy your Thanksgiving and May God Bless All of you.

 

[Tuba]

And a joyous Thanksgiving to YOU, Puglover! You follow all these cases like a blood hound or a sleuth of a pug. I don't know how you do it! Thanks for your good wishes, which are much appreciated. And for the blessing.

 

[sherbetjello]

I just wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving to all our Astros, as I am very thankful for all that you do!!

 

[coastal]

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[waltzingmatilda]

Jupiter was awesome in the eastern sky last night. It was flashing blue, red, green. I've never seen any thing like it!

http://earthsky.org/astronomy-essen...t-be-planet-jupiter-nearly-closest-since-1963

 

[Tuba]

The solar return reflects the precise moment in time that a birth Sun returns to its exact place or position. Exact means to the minute and even, necessarily, the second. We are re-establishing and reviewing the very soul, essence and nature of a person, a place, an entity. We have to "get it right" because, based on our precision, the horoscope wheel of Houses will change, the inter-relation of the planets will differ by House, the declinations will go in & out of parallel, the Moon will change and often even change Sign! The all important Ascendant will be fresh and give a new look at the prospects in a given year for the person, place or entity.

Maybe you remember when a WS posted in the main forum that a Sun Sign absolutely began on such & such a date. Since the Sun's movement is not regular or uniform from day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year, of course this cannot be true and that was brought out in the Astro Forum. Without that variation, there would be no charting for solar returns or revolutions for the Ascendant would remain the same throughout life, as would all of the Houses. No one would bother merely for the new positions of the other planets because a look at the transits would suffice.

Sun as to Earth will differ from 57'06" to 62'30" in a day. That is an important concept to understand because, with 365 days in a year, you can see how the variances add up quickly. You may be born on 10 May but the Sun return to the birth degree on 9 May or 11 May. The planets you study in a guesstimate return could be off by aspect and Sign and every property of a planet. Then there is the all important ASC and M.C. Not to mention,the Houses 2 through 12. Somewhere in the vicinity of every four minutes, a new degree rises on the ASC. If you say, "My Sun is 20° Taurus" and hand calculate or run a computer chart based on that approximation, the horoscope will not resemble the true return to the Sun's birth place in any particular and will be worthless, devoid of any and all meaning & a returned empty. You are talking degrees and the Table of Houses is talking minutes and seconds and will spit out the garbage of GIGO.

Nor can you work backward, saying, "I think Martha has a Scorpio Ascendant, so her Sun must be about 12.5° Leo". You are building errors of a degree for every four minutes onto the return ASC that your estimate of the Sun is off and way more than that due to your 'rectified' Ascendant because each Sign contains 30° and your stab at a Sun position is a function of that huge slice of time.

Everything said here about solar returns is true to the nth power in regard to lunar returns because the Moon's speed of motion is so much faster. If you have been given decent forecasts based on an unknown birthtime and were told it was a solar return being read, it was not. The information was coming from the transits to the birthday or you were consulting a psychic.

Recently in the Briefings Thread, there was discussion about web and print information setting dates for the start and end of Sun Signs. Particularly paragraphs 2 & 3 above explain why such dates are always approximations. You always need to check your ephemeris to see at what rate the Sun is moving on the day in question and then find the GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, for all the planets of your chart.
It may be 5:15 in the late afternoon when you chart was "born" but six hours later at 0° Greenwich where the measure of the planets & the Sun and Moon are observed and recorded. And that would definitely be the case if your event or birth is in the Central Time Zone, USA. You will then add the six hours times rate of Sun's motion to obtain that body's actual degree and minute.


In the case in question, the male was given a noon birth time because his actual time was unknown; if he were born at 8:00 p.m. or later, he would be a Sagittarian with the Sun on Neptune. Otherwise, he would fall under the Sun Sign Scorpio. All of this is to say, no one can rely upon the commonly held or jewelers' dates for Sun Signs. The Sun must be calculated. If you have a computer astrology program, it will do all of the arithmetic for you, of course.

 

[Leomoon80]

Excellent post about the Approximations of the positions on any given day in one's birth chart.

Since I was the Astrologer who posted on the Case Briefings thread with the chart mentioned,(noon) of John Skelton, father of the missing 3 Skelton children, I thought I would add my 2cents worth about this Noon Chart and the controversy surrounding it as a few posters didn't quite "get it" and insisted he had to be a Sagittarius Sun.

While it's true that there are "metes and bounds" rules and Astrological givings towards certain parameters when we create a natal chart .....many of them found in Antiquity of course and even before Ptolemy's time of 2,000 years ago (around this time the houses were created by man to divide up the heavens,btw.)

There is still the age old debate that is never ending, whether Astrology is actually an Art or a Science, or both?

This debate never ends of course, and so each takes sides.

My side is that Astrology is an Art based on certain scientific principles, mostly found in Astronomy.

That given, I see Astrology as an Art primarily.
The artist uses certain hues, brush strokes and tools to create a picture for herself.

With my own Uranus in Gemini, conjunct the North Node in the 11th house (a very fine position actually, because the 11th is ruled by an Air sign naturally)
And Uranus trines (harmonious) to Neptune, I first and foremost will always tend to "color outside the lines of the metes and bounds" that more traditionally taught Astrologers might avoid doing .

Perhaps this may explain a tad bit, WHY I insisted that Mr. Skelton was indeed a Scorpionic personality and would be seen as such when the facts eventually were all tabulated, and as we are now seeing today.

I use my inutition for a great deal of my Astrology, (as most do, even when not recognizing it as such imo.).......and with the tools that I employ, (besides the Sun's tropical degree itself), I came to this conclusion about Mr. Skelton.

I also hope I added to the conversation here, and didn't detract away from the given parameters of the Sun's approximate positions on any given day.

As for the eternal question about Astrology being an Art or Science?

I checked google and found a few intriguing links to offer here:

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/hpage.htm

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_astro_sci_index.htm

However, since I am now a senior citizen, I doubt sincerely in my lifetime that this debate will ever end or see a final solution that everyone can agree upon, although it appears that Nick Campion and others have and do try in these articles.

note modified:
G.W.Bush ALSO has his Uranus in the 11th, conj. his NN however it does not trine Neptune either! and his NN precedes his planet Uranus - so I guess we might say, not all apples are alike.:dance:

 

[Tuba]

The key to some recent confusion may be owing to the principle of First House representing The Initiator. We identify House 1 with underlying Aries in the natural zodiac.

If there is a roomful of people and one stands up and proposes a project, certainly he "takes" the Ascendant. But in event charts, the Ascendant represents what is up next and if an agent is lying in wait for a victim he means to target, what he is looking for is that special person to appear, which is exactly what happens when the rising degree matches the victim~he or she has shown up.

There is a rather well known event chart for a murder by householder of an intruder (paramour of the wife in this case). The victim is the First House party. And this is true even though the man of the house was not lying in wait. Nevertheless, next up was the intruder, found at the Ascendant where he decidedly did not belong.

Elsie Knapp cast and analysed many charts for crimes such as interest us and with the victim as Ascendant. She was a lecturer and professional member of the American Federation of Astrologers, a PMAFA, as I am. Her books are still available as are reports she wrote or gave to Federation audiences and which were published in their monthly bulletin.

 

[hockeymom]

Geez,is there something happening in the stars today? Several people including myself,,are having mechanical,electric and plumbing issues today. Its bad when I feel like I could have a glass of wine before noon!