France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[Skigh]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oting-Police-probing-possible-family-row.html


Jack Saltman, 67, said: “He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.

“It may be totally irrelevant if this was to be a terrible murderous killing.

“But I have told the police and if it is relevant they will have it and if it is not relevant then no one will ever know.”

Mr Saltman refused to elaborate further, but said Mr Hilli’s fears were “definitely not political”.

I wonder if this information was any help?

I heard on the radio today that the police had hoped to finish their searches at the beginning of this week but that the searches will carry on for another few days.

So just what are they still searching for.

The media have gone very quiet.
We have not yet seen a photo of Mrs Al-Hilli or her mother.

 

[Clio]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oting-Police-probing-possible-family-row.html

Jack Saltman, 67, said: “He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.

<snip>

Is this the same man who said he was asked by some officials to use his driveway to watch Mr.Alhilli's house?

<snip>

FWIW It's not the same person. This Daily Mail article mentions both Jack Saltman and Philip Murphy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...inary-life-engineer-victim.html#ixzz26x4UeGz2

Last night Philip Murphy, a neighbour in the wealthy village of Claygate, Surrey, recalled how police asked if they could use his driveway to spy on the massacre victims' mock-Tudor house.

The retired finance director said: 'I watched them from the window and they were watching Mr Al-Hilli and his brother.

'I thought they were from Special Branch. They would sit there all day in their parked car just looking at the house.

'When Mr Al-Hilli came out and drove off, they would follow him. It was all very odd. I never told the family they were being watched.'

However, I agree that people should talk to the police rather than the press. I think the person who I am most angered by is the family "friend" of 20 years who gave photos of the two girls to the press. Ah - just been to look for that link and it seems to have been removed which is a good thing imho

 

[Clio]

I heard on the radio today that the police had hoped to finish their searches at the beginning of this week but that the searches will carry on for another few days.

So just what are they still searching for.

The media have gone very quiet.
We have not yet seen a photo of Mrs Al-Hilli or her mother.

Local paper Le Dauphine mentioned a bit about the search. Google translate yields this

A tremendous amount of material was seized

A huge amount of documents of all kinds-up books and VHS tapes for children-was seized. British police officers, accompanied by French gendarmes who supervise the research spent opulent fine tooth comb. "The task of verification and operation could take weeks," added the same source that speaks of "interesting things" without making any breakthrough state at this stage.

http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-sav...ours-d-enquete-et-toujours-autant-de-mysteres

I suppose, in the simplest of terms, they are looking for anything that indicates "a motive for murder".

 

[Skigh]

Jack Saltman, 67, said: &#8220;He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.

&#8220;It may be totally irrelevant if this was to be a terrible murderous killing.

&#8220;But I have told the police and if it is relevant they will have it and if it is not relevant then no one will ever know.&#8221;

Mr Saltman refused to elaborate further, but said Mr Hilli&#8217;s fears were &#8220;definitely not political&#8221;.



I wonder if he told Mr Saltman the real reason for his fears or made up a story.
SAH was admitted to hospital in May with heart palpitations-was this when he first become so worried about something.

Was there something he had in the house he feared someone wanted to get there hands on.

Did he decide to take what ever it was with him to France?

The police obviously ,by all their searching of the house, feel that something could be hidden.

The family friend could have produced a photo of Mrs Al-Hilli-It seems to me that there must be a reason why her photo has not been published.

 

[Skigh]

tremendous amount of material was seized

A huge amount of documents of all kinds-up books and VHS tapes for children-was seized. British police officers, accompanied by French gendarmes who supervise the research spent opulent fine tooth comb. "The task of verification and operation could take weeks," added the same source that speaks of "interesting things" without making any breakthrough state at this stage


I am too nosy !! I would so like to know what the 'interesting' things are!!

What ever they are looking for could possibly be disguised as a children's video or hidden in a video case or children's book.

I am surprised they had videos rather than DVD's-or is that a translation confusion.

 

[rotterdam]

I heard on the radio today that the police had hoped to finish their searches at the beginning of this week but that the searches will carry on for another few days.

So just what are they still searching for.

The media have gone very quiet.
We have not yet seen a photo of Mrs Al-Hilli or her mother.

Makes you wonder why the crime scene was not searched as extensively as their home in the UK. At least I do not think so. Kind of points towards pretty good clues that have already materialized in this mystery. But they ain't telling the public, nor the media.
On the other hand, with all that watching from neighbor's driveway, may be they wanted to search the house for a long time but had no legal excuse to do so in the past.

 

[rotterdam]

Jack Saltman, 67, said: “He did say something to me which gave me cause to worry a little bit. Before he left he came round and saw me and asked if I would keep an eye on his house.

“It may be totally irrelevant if this was to be a terrible murderous killing.

“But I have told the police and if it is relevant they will have it and if it is not relevant then no one will ever know.”

Mr Saltman refused to elaborate further, but said Mr Hilli’s fears were “definitely not political”.



I wonder if he told Mr Saltman the real reason for his fears or made up a story.
SAH was admitted to hospital in May with heart palpitations-was this when he first become so worried about something.

Was there something he had in the house he feared someone wanted to get there hands on.

Did he decide to take what ever it was with him to France?

The police obviously ,by all their searching of the house, feel that something could be hidden.

The family friend could have produced a photo of Mrs Al-Hilli-It seems to me that there must be a reason why her photo has not been published.

Possible, there are just not many. Muslims generally do not like human images. Or it is done as additional protection for the two girls since folks , when publishing any pictures, could also jog their memories for associated images of the girls.

 

[rotterdam]

tremendous amount of material was seized

A huge amount of documents of all kinds-up books and VHS tapes for children-was seized. British police officers, accompanied by French gendarmes who supervise the research spent opulent fine tooth comb. "The task of verification and operation could take weeks," added the same source that speaks of "interesting things" without making any breakthrough state at this stage


I am too nosy !! I would so like to know what the 'interesting' things are!!

What ever they are looking for could possibly be disguised as a children's video or hidden in a video case or children's book.

I am surprised they had videos rather than DVD's-or is that a translation confusion.

Could be older video's from the parents youth. Or bought cheap on the second hand market. Remember they even used a discount coupon for the first campsite. They were thrifty apparently.

 

[rotterdam]

I find the second picture in this article of particular interest. Very few pictures of relatives of the Al-Hilli's released. However, note the dress code of the relatives. No burqas or headscarves.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ps-massacre-could-take-years-prosecutor-says/

Probably only the middle two are relatives.

 

[Snoopster]

While Zaid has strongly denied the fued, claims that both brothers had been present at their father’s side on his deathbed last year do not ring true, as the Olive Press has discovered.

Neither son, it emerges, is listed on his death certificate, which is held at Benalmadena register office.

More intriguingly, a close friend, who witnessed his death and signed paperwork, insisted he did not want to comment on the fued between the sons.

“I would prefer not to comment on that,” said Alla Hussein Mohamed, from Fuengirola, who kept a close eye on the ageing Iraqi in the years before his death.

Despite confirming that his sons were NOT at the care home on August 11 last year, he said they had turned up together in the ensuing days to pick up his body.

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/09/20/costa-link-to-french-alps-murders/

The article mentions that the elder al Hilli's health deteriorated in his later years and he moved from his modest flat in Mijas to the SAR care home in Torrequebrada.

The elder man's friend, who attended his death, said that the sons visited only from time to time.

There is a reference to the 'went missing for six days prior to his death' rumor, however it is not clear if there is any substance to that.

 

[rotterdam]

http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/09/20/costa-link-to-french-alps-murders/

The article mentions that the elder al Hilli's health deteriorated in his later years and he moved from his modest flat in Mijas to the SAR care home in Torrequebrada.

The elder man's friend, who attended his death, said that the sons visited only from time to time.

There is a reference to the 'went missing for six days prior to his death' rumor, however it is not clear if there is any substance to that.

This Spanish article has a slightly different version.
Google translation (poor)

According to sources close to the estate, Kadhim purchased the apartment number 409 over 20 years by 54,000 euros and the two brothers showed their interest in selling the property once it is resolved the paperwork relating to the succession of the property of his father. About Kadhim, however, little else is known besides that was friendly, polite and above all "very discreet". While some neighbors do remember him, many others do not pay face. Perhaps because the last stage of his life was spent ill and, according to sources, was in charge of a caretaker of Moroccan origin. Apparently, in one of many visits to his children made throughout the year, he was found dehydrated, in poor condition, and dispensed with the services of women. Finally, Kadhim died in a nursing home on the Costa del Sol with her son Saad at his side

http://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/malaga/2012/09/11/kadhim-hilli-millonario-discreto/532905.html

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...oting-Police-probing-possible-family-row.html

Mr al-Hilli, who was born in Baghdad, came to Britain with his parents in the 1970s to escape persecution from Saddam Hussein&#8217;s Ba&#8217;ath Party.

They lived in Pimlico, central London, where Mr al-Hilli&#8217;s father, Kadhim, also an engineer, set up his own factory.

The family moved to a house in Clay-gate in 1984, which became Mr al-Hilli&#8217;s own family home when he married his wife, a dentist, and had children. His mother died 10 years ago and his father died last year.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-acting-strangely-in-days-before-attack.html

Mr Janssen said: &#8220;We were told they planned to stay all week but they left suddenly after two days. The father left the site in his car alone four or five times each day. He went out for 20 or 30 minutes each time.
&#8220;The first time we thought he was going to the shops but it was very odd to go out so often.&#8221;

Although they did not see anyone visit the family they said they noticed an &#8220;unusual&#8221; man dressed in a smart jacket visiting the campsite at the time the al-Hillis were there. They said that he appeared &#8220;to come from the Balkans&#8221;.

A source close to the French investigation confirmed that the family had abruptly changed campsite and that Iraqi-born Mr al-Hilli had met with several people in the region in the days leading up to the massacre.

The source told The Daily Telegraph: &#8220;We are going through them now but we don&#8217;t have all the names yet. We now have a very precise timetable of their movements.&#8221;

 

[catoswyn]

Hi, this is my first post on websleuths so I hope I understand all the rules correctly! I've been following this case with interest. Information that comes out seems to be contradictory in nature so it is quite difficult to draw any conclusions. I am interested in the way that the shooting has been portrayed as 'professional' in style. I understand this mainly relies on the places he shot the victims ie. in the head and accuracy and speed of shooting.

However IMHO any individual with a keen interest in military matters or professional hits/guns would know these details of how they occur and given a certain amount of skill may be undertaking what he perceives as some kind of 'mission'. ie. it looks like a hit because an individual copies the style of a hit. This would fit into the profiles of some recent European style events where individuals fancy themselves as 'paramilitary' types and attack others. This includes the drive by motorcyle crimes in France and the tragedy in Norway.

What makes me think about this is the rumours on the type of gun used. I know little about guns myself but the descriptions do seem to be revolving around cheap and even historical collector's guns; even a suggestion that a Luger was used (old style gun connected with Nazi history). In addition the treatment of the child who was beaten suggests someone out of control to me ie. not stable or professional at all.

Who knows but I think the French will be very reluctant to tie any of this to potential racism attacks and this angle has been ignored by them pretty much; at least publically.

 

[Elley Mae]

Welcome to Websleuths catswyn!

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Yeah welcome Catswyn,great post.

 

[Elley Mae]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOotB46u9tU"]France Shootings: Alps Shootings Police Hunt &#39;Speeding&#39; Driver - YouTube[/ame]

 

[joe jones]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shr....html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

an interesting comment piece from a friend of Mr Al Hilli

 

[~n/t~]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/shr....html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

an interesting comment piece from a friend of Mr Al Hilli

Bizarre encounter. I agree with her about the children's privacy. As for the rest, well.....another one looking for 5-10-15 minutes in this horrific tragedy? I don't know.

 

[~n/t~]

Hi, this is my first post on websleuths so I hope I understand all the rules correctly! I've been following this case with interest. Information that comes out seems to be contradictory in nature so it is quite difficult to draw any conclusions. I am interested in the way that the shooting has been portrayed as 'professional' in style. I understand this mainly relies on the places he shot the victims ie. in the head and accuracy and speed of shooting.

However IMHO any individual with a keen interest in military matters or professional hits/guns would know these details of how they occur and given a certain amount of skill may be undertaking what he perceives as some kind of 'mission'. ie. it looks like a hit because an individual copies the style of a hit. This would fit into the profiles of some recent European style events where individuals fancy themselves as 'paramilitary' types and attack others. This includes the drive by motorcyle crimes in France and the tragedy in Norway.

What makes me think about this is the rumours on the type of gun used. I know little about guns myself but the descriptions do seem to be revolving around cheap and even historical collector's guns; even a suggestion that a Luger was used (old style gun connected with Nazi history). In addition the treatment of the child who was beaten suggests someone out of control to me ie. not stable or professional at all.

Who knows but I think the French will be very reluctant to tie any of this to potential racism attacks and this angle has been ignored by them pretty much; at least publically.

Welcome to WS ! :seeya:

I don't know much about weapons either and it's my understanding there have been conflicting reports on the gun used in this case. If it is an old style historical collector's gun, I wonder how the killer got it.

Makes me wonder if the victim had guns in his possession or perhaps his dad?

His dad, according to the spanish media was a millionnaire. I find that quite astonishing for someone who was persecuted by his own country to live in a foreign country. Yes, he was an engineer in Iraq. In 40 + years he made millions of dollars with ownership of properties in several countries.

Is that even realistic? Just some things that make me go hmmmmmm......

I don't think racism has anything to do with this crime, imo.