France - Five shot, four dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications #1

[Skigh]

Just an observation. I'm wondering if Mr. al-Hilli was running from something. The family left their home at a somewhat odd time of year, given that the girls would have been expected to attend school. Prior years camping photos indicate the family seemed to have a penchant for bicycling, yet no bikes are seen with the camper this year, nor on the car at the crime scene. Was he out scouting the countryside numerous times each day to see if there was a safe place he could run with his family if he became alarmed about their safety?

I think he was running from someting in england....did every thing catch up with him in France,
If was frightened then he was on the borders of switzerland and Italy.


Why take his family to a place where he felt he was in danger?

If in danger he could have taken them to several airports for a flight back to England.

 

[Skigh]

I thought I read or assumed it was a previous holiday.
So at least we know for sure that this wasn't unusual for them to go all that way with caravan bikes etc so this trip may not have been sinister.

Actually how I read it I thought it was portrayed as this holiday-that is why I questionened the clothing.

 

[Peace777]

I`m wondering if they were double-crossed by someone from either of their jobs:waitasec: As I do think this is too sinister of a murder to just be a random killing as nothing appears to have been stolen etc So sad for the little girls to lose their parents and grandma:anguish: Strange for Msr. Mollier`s wife to want him cremated so quickly, usually that is done for some type of cover-up I think but what in this case Hmmmm the plot thickens:waitasec:

 

[Peace777]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ne-of-French-Alps-massacre.html#ixzz26TcKRPjJ
Anyone else find this man`s demeanor a bit off in some way. If he seen the car and the motorcycle on that little path going up to the car park area there is NOT much room for any large vehicles as well as a bike so I would be watching closely that the vehicle didn`t hit me!! Other witnesses heard gun shots but he didn`t! Also he goes on about how he was being so nicely treated by the French Police being fed etc so strange to even bring that up! Could he know more than he is telling, and what was he doing in France on that particular day, as he says he had to be flown back for another interview Hmmmm I hope the true story comes out and the murder or murders are caught soonlease:

 

[Peace777]

Found this, "The prosecutor also stated that they had no idea who the dead cyclist was until his wife called into a local police station to say he was overdue for his tea" Huh? since when do you call the police because your husband hasn't shown up for his tea!! What did she know? Maybe she was worried because of where he had been going and what it involved??? Or did she have some knowledge that he was dead by the time she called so calls to take suspicion off of herself? She seemed to want to cremate her husband in a hurry too! Weird

 

[rotterdam]

I was wondering if the photo of the girls was from this holiday or a previous one.

They are both quite warmly dressed in tights and jumpers.

Considering who supplied the picture, friend in UK, I suspect it was from a previous trip. Unless Saad sent it via his cell phone of course.
I also marvel at that tandem contraption that I suspect mr. Al-Hilli engineered in his work shed.

 

[rotterdam]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/11/french-alps-shooting-cyclist-girl?newsfeed=true

Didierjean said he followed the British cyclist for a few metres before arriving at the car park. "I approached the car. I didn't touch anything, but I saw at once that there was nothing more to be done. There was no sign of life." He said he heard no shooting and "seen nobody passing … not a car or motorbike".


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-Witness-saw-4x4-and-motorbike-at-scene.html

A British cyclist, who is a former RAF serviceman, has told police he saw a green four-wheel drive car and a motorbike speeding towards the scene before he arrived, police said today.

bbm I wonder why Phillipe D didn't see the 4x4 and motorbike as well.

Depending which article you read , some say that the 4x4 and motor bike were coming from the scene according to RAFman. Any way fork (Route du moulin) would explain why Didierjean did not see them.

"He has told French police a dark green 4x4 and a motorbike passed him coming from the scene".

I like that version better since the car/bike could have arrived at the lay-by prior to the BMW and used (less travelled?)route du moulin only as a quick get away.

Besides they would have passed Mr Mollier too and unless Moillier was also a target, why start the massacre when somebody was right behind them.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ne-of-French-Alps-massacre.html#ixzz26o3TIByR

 

[rotterdam]

the impression is one of a professional hit, but it was incredibly poorly executed, now either it was done to double bluff the investigators into thinking it is family related when in truth Mr Al Hilli was the only true target and the family were taken out to make it look like a family murder when it is not, or it really is a family murder and whoever was hired to do it just did a bad job

a true professional hit surely would have selected a much better location to do the killing,

I am at present leaning towards Mr Al Hilli for whatever reason either had an agreement to meet somebody there or was lured/pressured into meeting somebody who he was doing business with or involved in other nefarious activities with,

and whatever this meeting was about it did not go according to plan, and whoever Al Hilli was meeting had some expectation that force may be needed thus he had a gun, and it just escalated,

I have a hard time believing that somebody would set up a hit in a National Park by the side of a road that was known for hiking and cycling, in broad daylight where anybody could come upon the scene

Well, can not really say yet if it was poorly executed. So far , no person has been arrested. And there are only speculations galore so far.
Time will tell.

 

[rotterdam]

Just an observation. I'm wondering if Mr. al-Hilli was running from something. The family left their home at a somewhat odd time of year, given that the girls would have been expected to attend school. Prior years camping photos indicate the family seemed to have a penchant for bicycling, yet no bikes are seen with the camper this year, nor on the car at the crime scene. Was he out scouting the countryside numerous times each day to see if there was a safe place he could run with his family if he became alarmed about their safety?

He was going to France caravanning for about two weeks. Apparently he did that with his family 3 to 4 times a year. And he was planning to come back, why else did he run to his accountant just before he left to fill out his VAT taxes.
What could he be running from in the UK that would not be there after two weeks. Besides who in the world would haul a big caravan along if you would be running/hiding from something. Last time I checked, there are more cars without than with a caravan on the road.
I do not think he was worried about his safety. One good door kick gets you into a caravan.

 

[rotterdam]

I`m wondering if they were double-crossed by someone from either of their jobs:waitasec: As I do think this is too sinister of a murder to just be a random killing as nothing appears to have been stolen etc So sad for the little girls to lose their parents and grandma:anguish: Strange for Msr. Mollier`s wife to want him cremated so quickly, usually that is done for some type of cover-up I think but what in this case Hmmmm the plot thickens:waitasec:

Mr Mollier had been dead for over a week so not really fast. Besides cremation is getting fairly common in Europe. France,at about 25%, is at the low end of spectrum. In nearby Switzerland, it is about 85%.. It is considered more green and besides in many European cemeteries if not cremated, they dig you up in ten years or less and chuck you in a common pit, unless you pay thru the nose.. Need room for new ones.

 

[rotterdam]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ne-of-French-Alps-massacre.html#ixzz26TcKRPjJ
Anyone else find this man`s demeanor a bit off in some way. If he seen the car and the motorcycle on that little path going up to the car park area there is NOT much room for any large vehicles as well as a bike so I would be watching closely that the vehicle didn`t hit me!! Other witnesses heard gun shots but he didn`t! Also he goes on about how he was being so nicely treated by the French Police being fed etc so strange to even bring that up! Could he know more than he is telling, and what was he doing in France on that particular day, as he says he had to be flown back for another interview Hmmmm I hope the true story comes out and the murder or murders are caught soonlease:

I thought , he sounded pretty believable but you can never be 100% sure of course. As to hearing the gunshots, all the individual witnesses with name released(RAF guy, Didierjean with his harem, guy working on roof) did not hear gun shots. Never saw a named witness yet that heard gunshots. Possibly occasional gunshots are not that unusual in the area plus echos in the mountains may make them sound like multiple.
Bet they asked the girls already and know if silencer was used.

 

[~n/t~]

He was going to France caravanning for about two weeks. Apparently he did that with his family 3 to 4 times a year. And he was planning to come back, why else did he run to his accountant just before he left to fill out his VAT taxes.
What could he be running from in the UK that would not be there after two weeks. Besides who in the world would haul a big caravan along if you would be running/hiding from something. Last time I checked, there are more cars without than with a caravan on the road.
I do not think he was worried about his safety. One good door kick gets you into a caravan.

It would be interesting to know what times of the year he camped with his family.

I'm assuming the camper/caravan belonged to them, right? Was the caravan left at the camp ground? If so, I don't think it's too far fetched to think they were running at the time they were executed. I think Mr. Al-Hilli was aware something was going to happen and perhaps he thought taking the family away from the home and the UK was a safe plan until he realized that wasn't the case at all.

As for the assailant (s), I believe timing was of the essence. The job needed to get done by a specific time. If the family was on the run and was about to cross the border into Italy or Switzerland, the killer (s) plan may have been foiled so they had to do it STAT.

The other thing that bothers me is what was the killer after? Was it to shut him up or did he take something from the vehicle? Perhaps that was the 7 year old girl's role? She was forced to take whatever it was from the vehicle to hand over to the killer (s) and once she was out of the vehicle the shots started firing (??) The child was then beaten.

My opinion based on what we know so far

 

[rotterdam]

Found this, "The prosecutor also stated that they had no idea who the dead cyclist was until his wife called into a local police station to say he was overdue for his tea" Huh? since when do you call the police because your husband hasn't shown up for his tea!! What did she know? Maybe she was worried because of where he had been going and what it involved??? Or did she have some knowledge that he was dead by the time she called so calls to take suspicion off of herself? She seemed to want to cremate her husband in a hurry too! Weird

News like that travels pretty fast in a quiet rural area. Plus she knew her hubby went to that specific location. They may have even received r calls from other locals worrying about their loved ones.

 

[Clio]

I thought , he sounded pretty believable but you can never be 100% sure of course. As to hearing the gunshots, all the individual witnesses with name released(RAF guy, Didierjean with his harem, guy working on roof) did not hear gun shots. Never saw a named witness yet that heard gunshots. Possibly occasional gunshots are not that unusual in the area plus echos in the mountains may make them sound like multiple.
Bet they asked the girls already and know if silencer was used.

BIB In the video in attached link, Jon Kay speaks to a Danielle Polittier(?) who says she heard 30 seconds of shooting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19499052

 

[Elley Mae]

BIB In the video in attached link, Jon Kay speaks to a Danielle Polittier(?) who says she heard 30 seconds of shooting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19499052

I find it odd that out of the witness's we know of, she was not there and heard the shots yet the ones there didn't hear he shots.idk

 

[Clio]

I find it odd that out of the witness's we know of, she was not there and heard the shots yet the ones there didn't hear he shots.idk

On the face of it, it does seem strange. Then again, Danielle might just have wanted her five minutes of fame.

If the gun(s) weren't silenced then presumably BM would have heard shooting so why continue up to the lay-by. Human curiosity perhaps - wanting to help idk

I'm pretty sure the BBC BM interview was carefully considered and the questions asked were deliberately chosen. BM was never asked AFAIR if he had heard shots. He said right at the end of the full interview that he had consulted the french police before deciding to give the interview so possibly, he was asked not to mention certain information in case it compromised the investigation.

So he doesn't mention whether he heard shots nor does he mention whether the car doors were locked. Regarding the doors, he stumbles a bit then says he needed to break the window. One might therefore infer he needed to break the window because the doors were locked but he never actually says that.

Doesn't explain why Phillippe D and the builder made no mention of hearing the shots though.

 

[Clio]

Mr Mollier had been dead for over a week so not really fast. Besides cremation is getting fairly common in Europe. France,at about 25%, is at the low end of spectrum. In nearby Switzerland, it is about 85%.. It is considered more green and besides in many European cemeteries if not cremated, they dig you up in ten years or less and chuck you in a common pit, unless you pay thru the nose.. Need room for new ones.

Agreed - I don't think it's suspicious that Mr Molliers family wanted him cremated. What I do find a bit unusual is that the police released the body and allowed a "temporary burial" but wouldn't allow a cremation. This sort of implies they may want to do further PM tests or something. I don't know very much about the French judicial system but in the UK a body would not be released unless all physical PM work on the body was completed. Maybe it's different in France.

 

[Clio]

It would be interesting to know what times of the year he camped with his family.

I'm assuming the camper/caravan belonged to them, right? Was the caravan left at the camp ground? If so, I don't think it's too far fetched to think they were running at the time they were executed. I think Mr. Al-Hilli was aware something was going to happen and perhaps he thought taking the family away from the home and the UK was a safe plan until he realized that wasn't the case at all.

As for the assailant (s), I believe timing was of the essence. The job needed to get done by a specific time. If the family was on the run and was about to cross the border into Italy or Switzerland, the killer (s) plan may have been foiled so they had to do it STAT.

The other thing that bothers me is what was the killer after? Was it to shut him up or did he take something from the vehicle? Perhaps that was the 7 year old girl's role? She was forced to take whatever it was from the vehicle to hand over to the killer (s) and once she was out of the vehicle the shots started firing (??) The child was then beaten.

My opinion based on what we know so far

BIB Yes it was. Here's an ITV piece with a photo.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012...eak-of-al-hilli-familys-french-campsite-stay/.

Also in this article,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html

it says that

French police were yesterday examining the hard disk of a laptop computer belonging to Mr al-Hilli that was found in the family's caravan.

 

[rotterdam]

It would be interesting to know what times of the year he camped with his family.

I'm assuming the camper/caravan belonged to them, right? Was the caravan left at the camp ground? If so, I don't think it's too far fetched to think they were running at the time they were executed. I think Mr. Al-Hilli was aware something was going to happen and perhaps he thought taking the family away from the home and the UK was a safe plan until he realized that wasn't the case at all.

As for the assailant (s), I believe timing was of the essence. The job needed to get done by a specific time. If the family was on the run and was about to cross the border into Italy or Switzerland, the killer (s) plan may have been foiled so they had to do it STAT.

The other thing that bothers me is what was the killer after? Was it to shut him up or did he take something from the vehicle? Perhaps that was the 7 year old girl's role? She was forced to take whatever it was from the vehicle to hand over to the killer (s) and once she was out of the vehicle the shots started firing (??) The child was then beaten.

My opinion based on what we know so far

Not sure if caravan was rented in UK or if he owned it. Somehow , I do not think his neighbors would be happy in that posh neighborhood to have a caravan like that parked in his driveway for long periods.
Anyway, assuming Saad needed money. To buy out his brother's part of home /to pay inheritance taxes/to make property deals in Iraq etc..
May be he had technical info that was valuable to another party. His anti Israel ranting on internet blogs resulted in contacts for information.
Saad went to France to sell info for money, afraid of surveillance in the UK.
Caravanning was a good disguise. Transfer was to be done at lay-by. The green 4x4 was already there when Saad arrived. So was motorbike ,unknown to Saad.
He completes the deal in green 4x4 and goes back to his car with suitcase of dough. Planning to go to Switzerland(city cloths) to make deposit in Swiss bank account. Maybe staying overnight with rest of family for nice trip. Large travel bags already in car.
Green 4x4 blocks him in, can only go backwards and guy from motorbike appears and does his thing plus takes the money back.
They really have no further use for him in future and they want to take no chances with him revealing which country/group/corp got the plans. Espionage is very dirty business. On a par with big drug deals and often done for love of money , not ideological values.

It may have been the first (and last) deal for Saad.

All IMO of course.

 

[rotterdam]

BIB Yes it was. Here's an ITV piece with a photo.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2012...eak-of-al-hilli-familys-french-campsite-stay/.

Also in this article,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ting-strangely-before-family-were-killed.html

it says that

Tks for the link. It had the discount thingy in, I read it but forgot where and I was looking for it. I just thought it was odd.
They must be watching their pennies. Wonder if it only applied to the first two nights.

"The family had not booked a pitch in advance at the Village Camping Europa site, where they used a discount voucher to claim a reduction on the 30 euro-a-night tariff but were given a prime spot close to the swimming pool. "