France - Machine Gun attack on magazine Charlie Hebdo #1

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jillycat said:
This is precisely what JS Mill and other political philosophers meant when they discussed free speech and the need to protect it. In a true marketplace of thought and speech, we are all free to advance our opinion and ideas, and to accept or reject those of others. Yet we have become a culture where speech is perceived as having the power to 'cause' behavior. The truth is, in a democratic environment, no one's speech has more of a place in the market than others. We are forgetting our Western foundations:

“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

So, to your point concerning 'inflammatory' speech, what is the purpose of protection of speech, specifically dissent (which Charlie Hebdo's cartoons essentially were) if not to guard against tyranny and oppression of the People? How do we develop an ability to discern the merit or lack thereof of speech that we encounter, if tyrants are constantly shutting down the marketplace and demanding strict adherence to their thought and their speech, under the mantle of "I'm offended"?

'Inflammatory' rhetoric is everywhere, every day, different day. And in my view, the inability to tolerate or ignore or shake off the speech and its impact, says more about the group who is always incensed and seeking to silence, than it says about the content of the speech.
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With that we must then also agree that extremists have the right to their inflammatory speech also, and all of us have the right to speak out against what we do not like.

Personally, everyone has their own views all throughout society, but it is the ones who ACT who are held responsible, we all know this, so yes if someone burns down a Mosque they will be held to account, not the ones who inspired it.

Anger as Rupert Murdoch says ALL Muslims should be held responsible for terror attacks in France

The News Corp boss suggested that even peaceful Muslims must take responsibility for the actions of terrorists until the 'jihadist cancer' is destroyed.

He wrote: 'Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.'

He then maintained his stance, arguing that 'political correctness' made for 'denial and hypocrisy'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-held-responsible-terror-attacks-France.html

^^ What do we think of this kind of rhetoric? Will that encourage more Muslims to speak out against extremists in their midst or provoke the opposite response?
 
I agree with this woman's statement who said majority of muslims may be peaceful but peaceful majority is irrelevant.
Certainly not all Germans weren't nazis but it didn't stop the atrocities. What makes those jihadists particularly dangerous (and their ideology) is perhaps a peaceful but SILENT majority. Majority is silent because they are bullied into silence by tyrannical minority. Majority may be also silent because they are silenced by political correctness and willingness to appease.

Every condemnation is of course welcome.
Not only Hamas but another terrorist group called Hezbollah, condemned Paris attacks. I do not think their statements carry much weight however.
With next breath they lament Israel has no right to exist and preach hatred against jews. Israel however doesn't want 'a new normality' when terror attacks are a daily occurrance in Israel.
Today couple of suicide terrorists blew themselves up in coffee shop in Lebanon, in Alawite neighborhood (Alawite is another sect, ruling sect in war-torn Syria btw) Little if any media coverage, because it happens so often there, others say because it was ONLY 8 killed, if it was 50 it would have been newsworthy.
There is a constant turmoil in Middle East, there is a war between muslim sects, between sunnis and shias. How muslims can peacefully co-exist with non-muslims, since they cannot co-exist with each other.





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Mrs G Norris said:
Anger as Rupert Murdoch says ALL Muslims should be held responsible for terror attacks in France

The News Corp boss suggested that even peaceful Muslims must take responsibility for the actions of terrorists until the 'jihadist cancer' is destroyed.

He wrote: 'Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.'

He then maintained his stance, arguing that 'political correctness' made for 'denial and hypocrisy'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-held-responsible-terror-attacks-France.html

^^ What do we think of this kind of rhetoric? Will that encourage more Muslims to speak out against extremists in their midst or provoke the opposite response?
Click to expand...


Before this call for action, one prominent Dutchman had already spoken out.

"Ahmed Aboutaleb, the mayor of Rotterdam has used an unthinkable expression to condemn Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris, France"


http://www.ibtimes.co.in/muslims-wh...fk-off-rotterdam-mayor-ahmed-aboutaleb-619767

Charlie Hebdo Attack: Rotterdam Mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb Lashes out at Muslims

Ahmed Aboutaleb, the mayor of Rotterdam, the second-largest city in the Netherlands and one of the largest ports in the world, has told Muslims living in the country to "pack your bag and leave" if they didn't like freedom of speech.
Ahmed Aboutaleb, the mayor of Rotterdam has used an unthinkable expression to condemn Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris, France.

"It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom," he said as he appeared on television programme Nieuwsuur on Wednesday night. "But if you do not like freedom, in Heaven's name pack your bag and leave. (*)" The anger was apparently directed at Charlie Hebdo attackers.

The comment came on the day gunmen thought to be affiliated with Islamic extremist outfits attacked satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo's office in French capital Paris.

"There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself," Aboutaleb continued, as reported by Dutch publication NLTimes. "Be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists," Aboutaleb, who is a Muslim himself, said.


BBM


(*) the Dutch expression that he used has been translated into English as *advertiser censored** off
 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/paris-shooting-killer-poses-al-qaeda-4957621

"Paris shooting: Killer poses with his al-Qaeda mentor revealing links to Brit extremists "

"The Paris atrocities’ links with Leicester are said to reflect a *sizeable Algerian community in the Midlands that has long been of interest to UK security services.

Many who claimed asylum there were aligned to an Islamic militia group in their homeland called the GIA. Beghal, who moved to Leicester with his family in 1997, was part of extreme GIA offshoot Takfir Wal Hijra – loyal to al-Qaeda and led by Osama bin Laden’s deputy Ayman al-Zawahiri.

He made visits to the notorious Finsbury Park Mosque in London where hook-handed al-Qaeda *henchman Abu Hamza, jailed for life on Friday for supporting *terrorism, preached murder."
 
Mrs G Norris said:
With that we must then also agree that extremists have the right to their inflammatory speech also, and all of us have the right to speak out against what we do not like.

Personally, everyone has their own views all throughout society, but it is the ones who ACT who are held responsible, we all know this, so yes if someone burns down a Mosque they will be held to account, not the ones who inspired it.

Anger as Rupert Murdoch says ALL Muslims should be held responsible for terror attacks in France

The News Corp boss suggested that even peaceful Muslims must take responsibility for the actions of terrorists until the 'jihadist cancer' is destroyed.

He wrote: 'Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.'

He then maintained his stance, arguing that 'political correctness' made for 'denial and hypocrisy'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-held-responsible-terror-attacks-France.html

^^ What do we think of this kind of rhetoric? Will that encourage more Muslims to speak out against extremists in their midst or provoke the opposite response?
Click to expand...

My position as stated previously remains the same: "We are all free to advance our opinion and ideas, and to accept or reject those of others. Yet we have become a culture where speech is perceived as having the power to 'cause' behavior. The truth is, in a democratic environment, no one's speech has more of a place in the market than others."

Again, I don't think speech causes terrorism. I think political ideology causes it. For others to be asked to take responsibility for the guesswork as to how an entire group will or should respond to speech they don't is not a reasonable direction. JMO
 
Mrs G Norris said:
[h=1]Are we really all Charlie? No, no and shamefully no[/h]
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/op...nd-shamefully-no/story-fni0ffxg-1227180871950

Some very valid points in this.
Click to expand...


Quote:

Are we really all Charlie? No, no and shamefully no.

No Australian newspaper dared published those pictures, too, bar one which did so in error.

The Obama administration three years ago even attacked Charlie Hebdo for publishing the naked Mohammed cartoon, saying it was “deeply offensive”.

President Barack Obama even told the United Nations “the future must not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam” and damned a YouTube clip “Innocence of Muslims” which did just that. The filmmaker was thrown in jail.


(....)

When Dutch political leader Geert Wilders toured Australia to warn against the danger Islamism posed to our physical safety and our freedom, he was treated as a pariah and the protesters who pushed and heckled his audience were handed the microphone instead.

When jihadists screaming “Allahu Akbar” shot dead US soldiers at Fort Hood or coffee shop patrons in Sydney, ABC and Fairfax journalists pretended they had no idea what ideology could have motivated such slaughter.

When Boko Haram jihadists screaming “Allahu Akbar” kidnapped nearly 300 Nigerian schoolgirls, forcing them to convert to Islam and selling them to be raped, Islamist apologist and terrorism lecturer Waleed Aly refused even to acknowledge on Channel 10 that Boko Haram actually had an Islamist agenda, describing it merely as a group of vigilantes.
 
zwiebel said:
. Anyhow, it made up my mind. I'm off to Paris to show my support because I do believe in pushing my luck and do not like the idea of being terrorized out of visiting any country. I'm going to buy a beautiful bouquet and lay it in tribute somewhere in the city, on behalf of myself, and anyone else here who would like to do the same but can't get there. I'll post pics when I do.
Click to expand...

RSBM

Great plan, Zwie. Make sure to have a place for the night before you leave :-)

If you don't manage, don't worry.
I saw a wonderful quote on Twitter.

In translation, and pardon the French. They have a quirky sense of humor and great slang ....

BenLocke ‏@CestPoJuste

Honestly, the real tribute to them would be that NOBODY came #CharlieHebdo so that all politicians found themselves ALONE. Like dangling willies.

Very Charlie indeed.
 
ZaZara said:
RSBM

Great plan, Zwie. Make sure to have a place for the night before you leave :-)

If you don't manage, don't worry.
I saw a wonderful quote on Twitter.

In translation, and pardon the French. They have a quirky sense of humor and great slang ....

BenLocke ‏@CestPoJuste

Honestly, the real tribute to them would be that NOBODY came #CharlieHebdo so that all politicians found themselves ALONE. Like dangling willies.

Very Charlie indeed.
Click to expand...

Now, THAT,would be something to see!
 
Re Tomm.

I get this want to "show" the world we wont be stopped etc. But IMO there is this notion that these folks really believed that by shooting everyone the paper would cease. I do not believe that. I think tomm is a very very bad idea. And its great everyone wants to show soladairty, but exactly how are any of these people going to feel if something horrible happens.

Its almost an invite, to come get some more headlines while everything is all shook up. LE is exhausted, people are emotipnally drained - why does this need to be done tomm. Boy all those high value folks, its an invitation to nothing but a mess.

And sure, if nothing happens , a lot of us will feel "good", like we showed you - but if it rackets things up then what? Worth it? There is, as we have seen in school shootings, chopping folks heads off, etc there is a "energy" to this kind of behavior by folks who endorse it.

Why taunt unwell people, when the pot is boiling ? Write letters to your editers from the safely of ones own home! Were asking for trouble, and the climate is perfect.

The core want of terrorism is media. I think it is rather obvious, (half of CNN is over there) that tomm is going to covered to death- perfect stage. How can anyone not believe the risks tomm are incredible, if for copycats, if nothing else, is bothersome on my end.

I hope I am posting tomm night how neat it was to watch it without it turning into another horror. They dont really need to do much, just start a stampede with some firecrackers or someting (New years China)

I hope I am so wrong.......................................Bad feeling...........Dark clouds............................
 
Chin up, CARIIS! Even in the wake of a horrible tragedy...there is a possibility for change.
Hopefully, you will be proven wrong and tomorrow will be a peaceful day to remember.
 
of the magazine. And I have no issue with any criticism of the content-that's what speech is for, to argue ideas. What I can't countenance is the idea that their ideas should be surpressed to avoid offense of a particular group.

Code: 
The magazine exists in an anti-clerical press tradition that is as French as Champagne, one that advocates for a France that is resolutely secular and skeptical....Charlie Hebdo acts aggressively on the idea that nothing is sacred. “It is forbidden to forbid,” after all.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/01/charlie_hebdo_cartoons_the_anti_clerical_newspaper_tradition_that_s_as_french.html


Mrs G Norris said:
Yes, I think she is quite right, I found an old story about Charlie Hebdo from Australia yesterday and it tells the tale of the response to the cartoons and magazine before the massacre, it was very different.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wo...prophet-mohammed/story-fnd134gw-1226477532876

This cartoon sums up the attitude of many in the press before this massacre.

View attachment 67151
https://latuffcartoons.wordpress.com/tag/charlie-hebdo/

Note the tags: September 19, 2012 | Categories: Cartoons | Tags: cartoons, Charb, Charlie Hebdo, Islamophobia, Latuff, Prophet Mohammed | Leave a comment

I have mixed feelings about the editorial line of the magazine too, I think many do, but this horror and the idea that we should be subject to Sharia law and punished accordingly is horrific.
Click to expand...
 
Momoffourboys said:
Chin up, CARIIS! Even in the wake of a horrible tragedy...there is a possibility for change.
Hopefully, you will be proven wrong and tomorrow will be a peaceful day to remember.
Click to expand...

I hope so, cant say it is not moving......
81336467-e8e5-4caa-aed0-6bd5b352be43-620x435.jpeg

5,500 police and military personnel would ensure the safety of the million people expected to attend.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...tages-al-qaida#block-54b155a5e4b0461a99f13b63
 
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