GA - Ex-POTUS Donald Trump and others indicted, 13 counts in 2020 election interference, violation of RICO Act, Aug 2023 *4 guilty* #3

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Arkay said:
Political bias is unfounded because most of those who testified for the Jan 6 committee were conservative Republicans who had voted for and supported Trump, until he decided to declare himself president for life.
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Thank you. That’s a very good point that the vast majority of those who testified before the Jan 6 committee had been Trump supporters and many had worked in the White House. They saw what they saw, heard what they heard and testified to it under oath, often under subpoena. They did their duty to the country, rather than to a mere man who thinks he should be President for life.

JMO
 
Lilibet said:
Thank you. That’s a very good point that the vast majority of those who testified before the Jan 6 committee had been Trump supporters and many had worked in the White House. They saw what they saw, heard what they heard and testified to it under oath, often under subpoena. They did their duty to the country, rather than to a mere man who thinks he should be President for life.

JMO
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I work full time so I was unable to get the time to see all the testimony in the hearings. I did see Colonel Vindman and was extremely moved by his testimony. I will remember forever when he said something to the effect that his Dad was very concerned about him standing up to the most powerful man in the country.( His father had brought his family over from the Soviet Union). But Col Vindman told his Dad - this is America - here Right matters. The truth matters.

I was witnessing at that moment - Honest unabashed patriotism at its finest.

I felt the same way about others I heard. They put themselves in “harms”way at great personal expense for the truth to be known.

No hidden agenda’s. Just doing the right thing. It’s not as popular in some circles as it used to be.

All just Imo.
 
waldojabba said:
I work full time so I was unable to get the time to see all the testimony in the hearings. I did see Colonel Vindman and was extremely moved by his testimony. I will remember forever when he said something to the effect that his Dad was very concerned about him standing up to the most powerful man in the country.( His father had brought his family over from the Soviet Union). But Col Vindman told his Dad - this is America - here Right matters. The truth matters.

I was witnessing at that moment - Honest unabashed patriotism at its finest.

I felt the same way about others I heard. They put themselves in “harms”way at great personal expense for the truth to be known.

No hidden agenda’s. Just doing the right thing. It’s not as popular in some circles as it used to be.

All just Imo.
Click to expand...

Col. Vindman was impressive, but he was at a different hearing (phone call with Zelensky leading to Trump’s first impeachment IIRC). But yes, those testifying before the January 6 Committee also put themselves in harm’s way for the truth to be known. Right matters. Truth matters.

JMO
 
Lilibet said:
Col. Vindman was impressive, but he was at a different hearing (phone call with Zelensky leading to Trump’s first impeachment IIRC). But yes, those testifying before the January 6 Committee also put themselves in harm’s way for the truth to be known. Right matters. Truth matters.

JMO
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Thanks for that clarification @Lilibet !
 
<modsnip> ... in order to believe Trump did not do anything he is accused of, you have to believe some combination of:

- 62 Judges across the country misruled.
- Some or many of the 1,000 people who swore under oath to tell the truth lied to the J6 committee.
- Dozens of witnesses that testified to several grand juries across multiple states lied under oath.
- The prosecutions are politically motivated.
- Dozens of grand jurors empanelled in two states were wrong to indict Trump.
- That despite there being NO proof of widespread voter fraud - you still "feel" there was.
- Despite the Office of the President of the United States having no constitutional or legal authority to interfere in how a state counts or certifies their votes, Trump was just making sure the election was free and fair.
- Several more judges also erred in not quashing the investigations; not removing or censuring the prosecutors; deeming the cases could proceed to trial; and openly saying in their own court rulings there was evidence Trump et al committed crimes long before indictments were ever issued.
- Many Republican officials that campaigned for Trump 'turned' on him.
- The civil cases that have already proven there's some there there are also wrong.
- Trump et al are the only ones telling the truth about voter fraud and everyone else is lying.
- The mainstream media has been unable or unwilling to ferret out the truth about the above.

OR...and hear me out here...

Maybe Trump actually did what he's accused of and bullied, berated, and bought other people into a plot to keep him in power illegally, unconstitionally and immorally. JMO
-
 
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SouthAussie said:
So, are you saying that Pence and Trump had not discussed the matter - multiple times - prior to Pence drafting a memo, with Pence refusing each and every time?


“I think it’s important that the American people know what happened in the days before January 6,” Pence said. “President Trump demanded that I use my authority as vice president presiding over the count of the Electoral College to essentially overturn the election by returning or literally rejecting votes. I had no authority to do that.”

Dec. 25, 2020: When Pence called Trump to wish him a Merry Christmas, Trump requested that Pence reject electoral votes on Jan. 6. Pence responded, as he had in previous conversations, “You know I don’t think I have the authority to change the outcome.”

Jan. 1, 2021: Trump called Pence and “berated him because he had learned that the Vice President had opposed a lawsuit seeking a judicial decision that, at the certification, the Vice President had the authority to reject or return votes to the states under the Constitution.” Pence told Trump he didn’t think there was any constitutional authority for that. In response, Trump reportedly told Pence, “You’re too honest.”

Jan. 3, 2021: Trump again told Pence “that at the certification proceeding, the Vice President had the absolute right to reject electoral votes and the ability to overturn the election.” Pence said he disagreed and noted that “a federal appeals court had rejected the lawsuit making that claim the previous day.”

Jan. 4, 2021: Trump held a meeting with Eastman and Pence, along with Marc Short, who was Pence’s chief of staff, and Greg Jacob, who was Pence’s counsel. The purpose of the meeting, the indictment states, was to convince Pence “based on the Defendant’s knowingly false claims of election fraud, that the Vice President should reject or send to the states Biden’s legitimate electoral votes, rather than count them.”

(and the descriptions go on further ..... )

www.factcheck.org

What Trump Asked of Pence - FactCheck.org

In an interview hours after former President Donald Trump was indicted for an alleged conspiracy to overturn the 2020 presidential election, one of his attorneys said that all Trump had ultimately asked his vice president to do was "simply pause” the Electoral College count at the U.S. Capitol...
www.factcheck.org www.factcheck.org
Click to expand...
Yes, I think Trump and Pence DID discuss it repeatedly. I also think Pence intentionally mislead Trump into believing he was seriously considering the plan to delay accepting electoral votes in the states that had requested a delay to accommodate audits.

From your link:
In an interview hours after former President Donald Trump was indicted for an alleged conspiracy to overturn the 2020 presidential election, one of his attorneys said that all Trump had ultimately asked his vice president to do was “simply pause” the Electoral College count at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

On Fox News the following night, Aug. 2, former Vice President Mike Pence called that claim “completely false.” Pence said Trump and his “gaggle of crackpot lawyers” asked him “to literally reject votes.”

Pence is a liar. He wasn't asked "to literally reject votes." He fully supported the delay.

I look forward to Pence's testimony at this trial when the "gaggle of crackpot lawyers" prove he is a liar about many things.

JMO

www.cnbc.com

Pence welcomes GOP effort to delay certification of Biden victory as other Republicans oppose it

The effort, the latest among dozens of Republican attempts to overturn Trump's loss, is unlikely to alter the electoral college tally, which Biden won 306-232.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
Vice President Mike Pence has welcomed a bid by 11 GOP senators and senators-elect to delay the certification of President-elect Joe Biden’s victory over President Donald Trump in the Electoral College during a formal joint session of Congress this week.

www.rawstory.com

'Flat-out lying': Legal analyst fact-checks Mike Pence claiming no BLM protesters were arrested

Former Vice President Mike Pence faced off against an angry crowd of Donald Trump's supporters who built a gallows on the lawn of the U.S. Capitol and chanted "Hang Mike Pence." Speaking to "Meet the Press" on Sunday, Pence complained about the prosecution of his former running mate, but he was...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
Mike Pence thinks he can just state a lie, and someone somewhere will buy it," said Geidner.


 
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I think Pence desperately wanted to do exactly what Trump wanted him to and that's why it appears he led Trump on. Pence was going from person to person practically begging for a way to do Trump's bidding.

Even though Pence stood up to Trump in the end, “Peril” reveals that after four years of abject loyalty, he struggled with the decision. Woodward and Costa write that Pence reached out to Dan Quayle, who had been the vice president to George H.W. Bush, seeking his advice.

Over and over, Pence asked if there was anything he could do.

“Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away,” Quayle told him.

Pence pressed again.

“You don’t know the position I’m in,” he said, according to the authors.

“I do know the position you’re in,” Quayle responded. “I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That’s all you do. You have no power.”
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He's hailed as a hero all too often in my book, especially considering he refused to testify to the J6 committee and tried very hard not to testify before a grand jury as well. JMO


 
Love the section of this article about the Special Grand Jury. Because there were layers of protection against any kind of unfounded indictments this Special Grand Jury could not indict. In fact the number of indictments suggested versus what was charged lends credence to the indictments that were handed down, IMHO.

It is hard to understand how so many people will question the DA or the other people in the Trump administration and rarely, if ever, hold the overall boss--- the man who has his hand in all that represents him .

The special grand jury, which Fulton County prosecutors convened to help with the investigation, met at an Atlanta courthouse from June to December of last year. It spent much of that time hearing testimony from 75 witnesses on the question of whether Mr. Trump or any of his allies had sought to illegally overturn his 2020 election loss in the state.

"Under Georgia law, the panel could not issue indictments itself. In the Trump case, that task fell to a regular grand jury that was seated over the summer. The regular grand jury heard evidence from prosecutors for one day in early August before voting to indict all 19 defendants whom prosecutors had sought to charge.

The special grand jury’s mandate was to write a report with recommendations on whether indictments were warranted in the investigation, which was led by Fani T. Willis, the Fulton County district attorney." Georgia Panel Recommended Charging Dozens, Including Lindsey Graham, in Trump Case
 
BritsKate said:
<modsnip> ... in order to believe Trump did not do anything he is accused of, you have to believe some combination of:

- 62 Judges across the country misruled.
- Some or many of the 1,000 people who swore under oath to tell the truth lied to the J6 committee.
- Dozens of witnesses that testified to several grand juries across multiple states lied under oath.
- The prosecutions are politically motivated.
- Dozens of grand jurors empanelled in two states were wrong to indict Trump.
- That despite there being NO proof of widespread voter fraud - you still "feel" there was.
- Despite the Office of the President of the United States having no constitutional or legal authority to interfere in how a state counts or certifies their votes, Trump was just making sure the election was free and fair.
- Several more judges also erred in not quashing the investigations; not removing or censuring the prosecutors; deeming the cases could proceed to trial; and openly saying in their own court rulings there was evidence Trump et al committed crimes long before indictments were ever issued.
- Many Republican officials that campaigned for Trump 'turned' on him.
- The civil cases that have already proven there's some there there are also wrong.
- Trump et al are the only ones telling the truth about voter fraud and everyone else is lying.
- The mainstream media has been unable or unwilling to ferret out the truth about the above.

OR...and hear me out here...

Maybe Trump actually did what he's accused of and bullied, berated, and bought other people into a plot to keep him in power illegally, unconstitionally and immorally. JMO
-
Click to expand...

You’re describing an excellent example of Occam’s Razor. The simplest explanation is more likely to be the correct one.

Occam's Razor - Definition and examples — Conceptually

Cut through the crap with a tool from your mate, Occam.
conceptually.org conceptually.org

If Occam’s razor brings to mind images of stubbled gentlemen and shaving cream, you’re not actually that far off! Occam’s razor (also known as the ‘law of parsimony’) is a philosophical tool for ‘shaving off’ unlikely explanations. Essentially, when faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest is likely the correct one.

Namesake William of Occam said the best explanation of any phenomenon is the one that makes the fewest assumptions. A statement that includes many ‘ifs’ should trigger mental alarm bells: you should consider Occam’s razor and investigate it further.

BBM


JMO
 
It'd slipped my mind last night when discussing Chesebro's actions but remember it's recently been revealed that he was also at the attack on the Capitol January 6th, following Alex Jones around.

I think where this cast of characters is concerned - at least those closest to the nexus of power - there's probably more crimes they haven't been charged with. I wholeheartedly admit my bias but with every fiber of my being I believe the folks at the top echelons of this scheme knew damn well what they were doing and believed they were or would be impervious to consequence. But I think its also very indicative of Chesebro being totally invested in the outcome of this conspiracy versus simply advising Trump's campaign attorney. I did not realize Chesebro had only started advising the campaign in November, 2020 - so it was an incredibly short journey from being hired to plotting a multi-state conspiracy. JMO

“Even if Chesebro is simply a diehard Infowars fan, I think that would further illustrate how thin the line was between the serious, credentialed people who sought to undermine election results and the extremist figures who sought to unleash havoc was in that period, to the extent it meaningfully existed at all,” said Jared Holt, an expert at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue which investigates extremism, hate and disinformation.
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“Regardless of Chesebro’s potential criminal liability for being in the restricted areas of Capitol grounds, this evidence could be cited by prosecutors as further proof that Chesebro was not operating as a bona fide legal advisor but rather was an activist aligned in the cause to overturn the election,” Goodman said. “It undercuts defenses Chesebro might mount that he was functioning only in the role of providing legal advice for clients.”
Click to expand...
Kenneth Chesebro, alleged architect of fake electors’ plot, followed Alex Jones around Capitol grounds on January 6th
 
kaen said:
Love the section of this article about the Special Grand Jury. Because there were layers of protection against any kind of unfounded indictments this Special Grand Jury could not indict. In fact the number of indictments suggested versus what was charged lends credence to the indictments that were handed down, IMHO.

It is hard to understand how so many people will question the DA or the other people in the Trump administration and rarely, if ever, hold the overall boss--- the man who has his hand in all that represents him .

The special grand jury, which Fulton County prosecutors convened to help with the investigation, met at an Atlanta courthouse from June to December of last year. It spent much of that time hearing testimony from 75 witnesses on the question of whether Mr. Trump or any of his allies had sought to illegally overturn his 2020 election loss in the state.

"Under Georgia law, the panel could not issue indictments itself. In the Trump case, that task fell to a regular grand jury that was seated over the summer. The regular grand jury heard evidence from prosecutors for one day in early August before voting to indict all 19 defendants whom prosecutors had sought to charge.

The special grand jury’s mandate was to write a report with recommendations on whether indictments were warranted in the investigation, which was led by Fani T. Willis, the Fulton County district attorney." Georgia Panel Recommended Charging Dozens, Including Lindsey Graham, in Trump Case
Click to expand...
It's frustrating when a clerk makes a clerical error and the supporters instantly (instantly!) jump to the conclusion it must mean something sneaky and nefarious is happening....but a grand jury meeting month after month examining evidence and witness testimony under legal rules and procedures is questionable.

jmo
 
I read the Special Grand Jury Report.

In this case Michael Flynn is an Unidicted Co-conspirator.

He has not been charged in this case (yet), but he is complicit in it and still liable to being charged "in this case" as the SGJ recommended he be. Just in case anybody is getting/has the impression that this criminal is somehow unbiased/univolved in the Georgia case.
 
Inthedetails said:
It's frustrating when a clerk makes a clerical error and the supporters instantly (instantly!) jump to the conclusion it must mean something sneaky and nefarious is happening....but a grand jury meeting month after month examining evidence and witness testimony under legal rules and procedures is questionable.

jmo
Click to expand...
RBBM

I would also argue that stoking this mentality is part of a deliberate strategy employed by Trump et al to erode people's confidence in the judiciary. Authoritarian experts have been warning about Trump for years.

Authoritarians have a playbook. They go after marginalized communities; politicize independent institutions such as central banks or the judiciary, quash dissent, stoke violence, attack the media, promote disinformation and corrupt elections all with the express aim of achieving and maintaining power.

Any entity that can expose an authoritarian regime's corruption or abuses, attempt to check it's power or hold it accountable are seen as a threat to their power and an enemy to their cause. It's vital they convince their followers of that as well though. JMO

All democracies have certain functions that operate with some independence from partisan political actors. Central banking, law enforcement and courts, official statistics, financial accounting and regulation, election administration, intelligence and national security—all only work properly when appropriately protected from politics. These institutions are ripe targets for capture by autocratic factions, in whose hands they become weapons towards adversaries, shields against accountability, or, worst of all, levers of large-scale manipulation and corruption. Because of their potential to cause permanent institutional, legal, and economic damage, even early attacks on independent institutions should be treated as a substantial threat.
Click to expand...
protectdemocracy.org

The Authoritarian Playbook - Protect Democracy

Today’s authoritarian playbook is a process that happens piecemeal and is hard to distinguish from normal political jockeying.
protectdemocracy.org protectdemocracy.org
 
BritsKate said:
RBBM

I would also argue that stoking this mentality is part of a deliberate strategy employed by Trump et al to erode people's confidence in the judiciary. Authoritarian experts have been warning about Trump for years.

Authoritarians have a playbook. They go after marginalized communities; politicize independent institutions such as central banks or the judiciary, quash dissent, stoke violence, attack the media, promote disinformation and corrupt elections all with the express aim of achieving and maintaining power.

Any entity that can expose an authoritarian regime's corruption or abuses, attempt to check it's power or hold it accountable are seen as a threat to their power and an enemy to their cause. It's vital they convince their followers of that as well though. JMO


protectdemocracy.org

The Authoritarian Playbook - Protect Democracy

Today’s authoritarian playbook is a process that happens piecemeal and is hard to distinguish from normal political jockeying.
protectdemocracy.org protectdemocracy.org
Click to expand...

Thanks for calling a spade a spade. Or an authoritarian wannabe for what he is.

JMO
 
MyBelle said:
Yes, I think Trump and Pence DID discuss it repeatedly. I also think Pence intentionally mislead Trump into believing he was seriously considering the plan to delay accepting electoral votes in the states that had requested a delay to accommodate audits.

From your link:
In an interview hours after former President Donald Trump was indicted for an alleged conspiracy to overturn the 2020 presidential election, one of his attorneys said that all Trump had ultimately asked his vice president to do was “simply pause” the Electoral College count at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

On Fox News the following night, Aug. 2, former Vice President Mike Pence called that claim “completely false.” Pence said Trump and his “gaggle of crackpot lawyers” asked him “to literally reject votes.”

Pence is a liar. He wasn't asked "to literally reject votes." He fully supported the delay.

I look forward to Pence's testimony at this trial when the "gaggle of crackpot lawyers" prove he is a liar about many things.

JMO

www.cnbc.com

Pence welcomes GOP effort to delay certification of Biden victory as other Republicans oppose it

The effort, the latest among dozens of Republican attempts to overturn Trump's loss, is unlikely to alter the electoral college tally, which Biden won 306-232.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
Vice President Mike Pence has welcomed a bid by 11 GOP senators and senators-elect to delay the certification of President-elect Joe Biden’s victory over President Donald Trump in the Electoral College during a formal joint session of Congress this week.

www.rawstory.com

'Flat-out lying': Legal analyst fact-checks Mike Pence claiming no BLM protesters were arrested

Former Vice President Mike Pence faced off against an angry crowd of Donald Trump's supporters who built a gallows on the lawn of the U.S. Capitol and chanted "Hang Mike Pence." Speaking to "Meet the Press" on Sunday, Pence complained about the prosecution of his former running mate, but he was...
www.rawstory.com www.rawstory.com
Mike Pence thinks he can just state a lie, and someone somewhere will buy it," said Geidner.
Click to expand...
OK; from all of your posts ths far in this thread, I understand that you do not want to see Trump et al charged in this case, Please correc me if I am wrong.

Does this quoted post above mean that you believe this all is Pence's fault?? That is the impression that I am getting, so could be wrong on this too; please clarify if tht is the case as well.

It baffles me because Pence is ultimately the man who upheld his oath and ensured the electoral votes were counted legally. He is the man who actually upheld the Constitution and democracy within America, but I have no love loss for him either; it wasn't his plan ergo he's not charged in the plan's conspiracy. IMO.
 
Just wanted to mention there is a general legal principle in the United States that ignorance of the law is not an excuse and can almost never be used as a legal defense.

There has seemed to be some suggestion that some of the defendants are less culpable because they didn't know their actions were illegal. As a matter of law though, it doesn't matter.

JMO
 
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