I agree with you. No theories should be taken off the table until there is evidence to eliminate it. While the topic may be uncomfortable to some, it may just yield a clue to finding her.
GA GA - Jenna Van Gelderen, 25, Atlanta, 18 Aug 2017 #3
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I agree with you. No theories should be taken off the table until there is evidence to eliminate it. While the topic may be uncomfortable to some, it may just yield a clue to finding her.
AzPistonsGirl
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I admit, I usually shrug off any human trafficking theory when a young woman goes missing in the U.S. (unless there are facts leading us to that theory of course, and there have been some, for sure, in other cases). I roll my eyes right past those posts usually, looking instead at what the facts tell us rather than trying to make a theory fit the facts. This case was no exception. I put zero stock in that theory no matter how many stories and reports I read about it.
Until now. I am open to letting some of the facts we know line up for this possibility. Were I to assign a percentage to the probability IMO, it would be low, absolutely. I am not going to list everything here, because I think that has been done upthread with enough detail and accuracy.
Just wanted to say that I do think human trafficking is worth re-thinking IMO. Sadly...
Until now. I am open to letting some of the facts we know line up for this possibility. Were I to assign a percentage to the probability IMO, it would be low, absolutely. I am not going to list everything here, because I think that has been done upthread with enough detail and accuracy.
Just wanted to say that I do think human trafficking is worth re-thinking IMO. Sadly...
I'm not trying to speak for Code Sleuth, and I'm assuming you are not in the states. But whether or not a company is legitimate is hard to explain sometimes. For example an event company, may call themselves an event company but could be a front for trafficking. (think sketchy massage parlors).... Are they registered yes, do they pay taxes, yes... But are they really doing what they say they are doing is the issue. It's not a black and white issue, it's a lot of gray.
My point is there are too many coincidences, that there isn't something nefarious going on.... NOW with that being said, could Jenna have ditched her phone and wallet and someone up to no good picked them up, ABSOLUTELY. Which would also make sense. But I don't think you can ignore that something isn't adding up.
Shiressleuth
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Oh pardon me for asking :smile:
Codesleuth hasn't given a theory afaik.
No please don't take it like that, I wasn't trying to be snarky.... I just meant the theory which they shared while staying within TOS is what I believe. Either Jenna was involved with this operation (and by that I mean the event company/security guard/random phone dial) or those people picked up or took her phone/wallet/car and are using it.
Shiressleuth
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So I'm not in the states but you think these companies are fronts for illegal activity but you have no proof just a hunch. Her wallet and purse didn't go missing but something is dodgy. This sounds like rumour to me. It wouldn't stand up in court. :cow:
sassysleuthie
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I think we will continue to run around in circles until we get an update. @Subie_climber - > can you give us any info at all on latest developments?
I very much so do. If for example you told me the phone number was connected to an event company, no big thing, I wouldn't. BUT when you can connect the phone number to someone involved in trafficking (which came from the VI), and that person owns an entertainment company and security, that sets the alarm bells off. The reason I made the comment about not being from the states is our night clubs from my experience are vastly different. When I was in Europe every nightclub had that device were it scans your ID and puts your face on a monitor, and is very strict. But in the US, it's just not like that. Nightclubs are rented out but "promoters" and they make a percentage of door sales and alcohol sales. They usually bring problematic guests and its a disaster.
I may be wrong and please correct me if I am, but to me European nightclubs have much higher standards than US night clubs.
Is her wallet/debit card not missing? I assumed they went missing when she did along with the phone.
sassysleuthie
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And again not trying to be snarky, but CodeSleuth laid out an entire paragraph of proof, please reread it. It's not just a hunch or a guess, it's supported by a plethora of information that was shared due to some great Sleuthing.
subie_climber
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Nothing yet unfortunately. We have a second pi now re working the case and re interviewing people. My father spoke with the chief and questioned if they should turn the case over to the GBI, they are not willing yet. The police now have additional detectives on the case as well .
However some of you saw the other day that my dad had posted of a recording that night. I cannot speak much on this yet until police speak with this friend who recorded the conversation. It just gives us some general info on her plans that night.
Regarding the gas stations we really don't know what's up with them right now. That's part of the interviews with some of these people she hung out with .
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Shiressleuth
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I will in case i mIssed it. Sorry for all the editing. My screen is jumping all over the place.
sassysleuthie
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Thank you for the update. I didn't know of this recording. Is there a way to listen to it? <modsnip>
Stanly
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No :-/
As per Subie - Purse / day bag yes found in car. We asked about the keys yesterday and the Chief said he needed to check again.
@Subie, any news on the keys?
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Shiressleuth
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TY for the response. That is surprising. Don't they need recordings for prosecutions?
It was good, there is one a couple pages back and one even further back, the connections are crazy. After you read it, let me know what you think?
codesleuth
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I will post a theory if need be.
I will not find exact post numbers for each supporting statement but if you've read the whole thing, you can correct as need be or verify that something was actually stated. I just don't have an hour to pour back over everything and am more than open to facts that contradict what I thought was said. :blushing:
Jenna's Situation:
- Jenna was unemployed currently yet had recently moved out, either providing verification of income from somewhere unknown to her family, having a cosigner, or paying in advance
- Jenna had recently lost her job for theft, at least a portion of the money was going to someone via Western Union and someone coming into the store asking for money, whether this is the same person is unknown to us
- Jenna has an ample interest in clubs, parties, and 'going out' as evidenced by her facebook likes and photos (modsnip this if need be)
- Jenna has friends unwilling to speak to her whereabouts, whether for fear of Jenna getting in trouble or getting in trouble themselves or simply through a general lack of knowledge as to her whereabouts
- Jenna has recently downloaded several, uncommon text messaging apps that do not save conversations between phones (per subie)
- Jenna has high functioning autism
- easily manipulated
- lack of impulse control
- unaware of surroundings, social context
- from personal experience (which is not a blanket statement, just saying this is what I have experienced), I have sat in multiple (too many) meetings with the parents of students with autism who have been coerced into simple sexual acts for acceptance from peers, I have fielded phone calls from homeroom parents where other students at a sleepover snuck out of homes to meet up with 35-40 year old men in home depot parking lots, I have had two students actually trafficked and one in the news in Virginia Highlands, I personally can see the ease with which this situation could have been at least a "taken against her will" as stated by her parents. I do not see many reasons people take people against their will except it is a crime of passion, a sexual case, or a ransom case. There was no dna found anywhere and no ransom has been asked for. Please correct me if there are other common reasons.
- She had a male roommate who would not let police into the house despite Jenna's name being on the lease, she had very few belongings in this house as if she was on the move a fair amount
What We Know in relation to my theory:
- Tapestry was taken, we have nothing else regarding the tapestry so I see that as a dead end UNTIL something else surfaces regarding it
- We know her car was found across from a rap studio where I have personally heard someone die and in the parking lot of a private event space
- We know her car was in disarray, we can only speculate as to why and if anything was out of the ordinary. Personally my car right now looks like someone has broken in and thrown everything around but I moved this week so that makes sense to me. Some of made sense of the location of the purse and belongings, others have negated that all based on personal habits which we cannot attribute to Jenna.
- We know the house was locked behind her, either to deter people from getting to the "crime scene" quickly or because Jenna planned on coming back and her executive functioning may just lead to her keeping a messy house. She may have even left the tv on for the cat. My dog and cat love watching animal planet together. So all we know is the house was locked, indicating someone took the time to lock it.
- We know subie has traced the pocket dials to a metro pcs number of someone she was supposed to meet up with near her apartment, work, the bp station, and wendy's as they are all in the same area.
- We know there are 5 persons of interest mentioned by subie, I do not remember them all but I remember one was a security guard at the pet store
- <modsnip>
My few theories:
- Jenna was supposed to meet up with someone to go to the eclipse party at the club near her house. She supposedly did not show. She attended another event with someone else. What that event was I do not know. It could have been a normal old party, Jenna was hurt in some fashion, through falling or something innocuous, and then due the nature of events at that party, they were hesitant to call police or an ambulance.
- Jenna attended a party with someone, who coerced her into acts she was unwilling to do or was uncomfortable with, maybe sexual, maybe drug related, maybe anything. This person went back with her to her house as she was their ride. This person became angry and harmed Jenna, accidentally or on purpose, and then took the evidence away.
- Jenna attended an event with someone and was shown a way to make money which she was hesitant to try but realized she needs money to pay rent and live independently. Took the opportunity and may be regretting it, may be trapped in it, may have been forced into it against her will. No prostitution, but slow and simple - just one more baby step - coercion. <modsnip> You may say she is too old, but while younger is the norm, there are still older women being trafficked. (this is my trafficking theory)
- My last theory I have not previously mentioned BUT is possible. Jenna has autism and from my experience only, they are very bad at lying and often have a strong sense of what they deem to be right and wrong. Very little gray. Lots of black and white. So..Jenna attends event where something illegal is going on whatever that may be. She is uncomfortable and expresses as much on the ride home. The unidentified male passenger and her get in an argument over this activity where Jenna says something to the effect of she's going to tell. Unidentified male stops her from telling. Just a witness trying to do something right and expressed that to the wrong person.
There's obviously a lot more we know and each of us hone in on a different theory. I cannot personally wrap my brain around all the small details so attempt to piece a few of them together. My experience lies in nonprofit work with women who have been trafficked, at a school for children with autism, and living 100 yards from where her car was found on Defoor. So I hone in on those 3 things, my experiences with tapestries is limited so I have not chosen to lend any theories there. The common denominator from my theories is that Jenna attended an event that would be considered unsavory to most of us, her facebook indicates she "liked' many of these venues I would personally consider unsavory and would not take my girlfriend to for a fun night out. I also believe Jenna needed money desperately, either personally or to send more money through western union.
Instead of further theorizing, I would love if any of these could be corroborated or hopefully dismantled with some facts I have missed. I would not like them dismantled with "this feels unlikely to me." They are all equally likely based on the terribly little information we have. Which is basically that she went missing and we have her car and it's a shame there are no fliers.
I will not find exact post numbers for each supporting statement but if you've read the whole thing, you can correct as need be or verify that something was actually stated. I just don't have an hour to pour back over everything and am more than open to facts that contradict what I thought was said. :blushing:
Jenna's Situation:
- Jenna was unemployed currently yet had recently moved out, either providing verification of income from somewhere unknown to her family, having a cosigner, or paying in advance
- Jenna had recently lost her job for theft, at least a portion of the money was going to someone via Western Union and someone coming into the store asking for money, whether this is the same person is unknown to us
- Jenna has an ample interest in clubs, parties, and 'going out' as evidenced by her facebook likes and photos (modsnip this if need be)
- Jenna has friends unwilling to speak to her whereabouts, whether for fear of Jenna getting in trouble or getting in trouble themselves or simply through a general lack of knowledge as to her whereabouts
- Jenna has recently downloaded several, uncommon text messaging apps that do not save conversations between phones (per subie)
- Jenna has high functioning autism
- easily manipulated
- lack of impulse control
- unaware of surroundings, social context
- from personal experience (which is not a blanket statement, just saying this is what I have experienced), I have sat in multiple (too many) meetings with the parents of students with autism who have been coerced into simple sexual acts for acceptance from peers, I have fielded phone calls from homeroom parents where other students at a sleepover snuck out of homes to meet up with 35-40 year old men in home depot parking lots, I have had two students actually trafficked and one in the news in Virginia Highlands, I personally can see the ease with which this situation could have been at least a "taken against her will" as stated by her parents. I do not see many reasons people take people against their will except it is a crime of passion, a sexual case, or a ransom case. There was no dna found anywhere and no ransom has been asked for. Please correct me if there are other common reasons.
- She had a male roommate who would not let police into the house despite Jenna's name being on the lease, she had very few belongings in this house as if she was on the move a fair amount
What We Know in relation to my theory:
- Tapestry was taken, we have nothing else regarding the tapestry so I see that as a dead end UNTIL something else surfaces regarding it
- We know her car was found across from a rap studio where I have personally heard someone die and in the parking lot of a private event space
- We know her car was in disarray, we can only speculate as to why and if anything was out of the ordinary. Personally my car right now looks like someone has broken in and thrown everything around but I moved this week so that makes sense to me. Some of made sense of the location of the purse and belongings, others have negated that all based on personal habits which we cannot attribute to Jenna.
- We know the house was locked behind her, either to deter people from getting to the "crime scene" quickly or because Jenna planned on coming back and her executive functioning may just lead to her keeping a messy house. She may have even left the tv on for the cat. My dog and cat love watching animal planet together. So all we know is the house was locked, indicating someone took the time to lock it.
- We know subie has traced the pocket dials to a metro pcs number of someone she was supposed to meet up with near her apartment, work, the bp station, and wendy's as they are all in the same area.
- We know there are 5 persons of interest mentioned by subie, I do not remember them all but I remember one was a security guard at the pet store
- <modsnip>
My few theories:
- Jenna was supposed to meet up with someone to go to the eclipse party at the club near her house. She supposedly did not show. She attended another event with someone else. What that event was I do not know. It could have been a normal old party, Jenna was hurt in some fashion, through falling or something innocuous, and then due the nature of events at that party, they were hesitant to call police or an ambulance.
- Jenna attended a party with someone, who coerced her into acts she was unwilling to do or was uncomfortable with, maybe sexual, maybe drug related, maybe anything. This person went back with her to her house as she was their ride. This person became angry and harmed Jenna, accidentally or on purpose, and then took the evidence away.
- Jenna attended an event with someone and was shown a way to make money which she was hesitant to try but realized she needs money to pay rent and live independently. Took the opportunity and may be regretting it, may be trapped in it, may have been forced into it against her will. No prostitution, but slow and simple - just one more baby step - coercion. <modsnip> You may say she is too old, but while younger is the norm, there are still older women being trafficked. (this is my trafficking theory)
- My last theory I have not previously mentioned BUT is possible. Jenna has autism and from my experience only, they are very bad at lying and often have a strong sense of what they deem to be right and wrong. Very little gray. Lots of black and white. So..Jenna attends event where something illegal is going on whatever that may be. She is uncomfortable and expresses as much on the ride home. The unidentified male passenger and her get in an argument over this activity where Jenna says something to the effect of she's going to tell. Unidentified male stops her from telling. Just a witness trying to do something right and expressed that to the wrong person.
There's obviously a lot more we know and each of us hone in on a different theory. I cannot personally wrap my brain around all the small details so attempt to piece a few of them together. My experience lies in nonprofit work with women who have been trafficked, at a school for children with autism, and living 100 yards from where her car was found on Defoor. So I hone in on those 3 things, my experiences with tapestries is limited so I have not chosen to lend any theories there. The common denominator from my theories is that Jenna attended an event that would be considered unsavory to most of us, her facebook indicates she "liked' many of these venues I would personally consider unsavory and would not take my girlfriend to for a fun night out. I also believe Jenna needed money desperately, either personally or to send more money through western union.
Instead of further theorizing, I would love if any of these could be corroborated or hopefully dismantled with some facts I have missed. I would not like them dismantled with "this feels unlikely to me." They are all equally likely based on the terribly little information we have. Which is basically that she went missing and we have her car and it's a shame there are no fliers.
subie_climber
Verified Family - Jenna Van Gelderen
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Keys have not been located yet as from what we know, so they are missing as well
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This is not exactly accurate, that the family has strongly denied that she was prostituting. It is true that they strongly denied that Subie told the police that she was a prostitute. It is also true that Subie said, in thread #1, post #226, "they took my quote out of context on the prostituting part. I never said she was doing that. Only we had heard earlier this year she *may* have been. No confirmation "
As far as I can recall through these threads, Subie has never denied that J may have been prostituting. He also has indicated a number of times that trafficking was a concern. Thread#1 post#160 "Definitely looking at this now from a trafficking standpoint."
Obviously, the family is privy to lots of information that they haven't and should not share, and lots of information has been exchanged since those early posts. I certainly haven't read anything, though, that would appear to indicate that trafficking is not a strong possibility.
Hoping for the best for the family and for Jenna.
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