GA - Jonah, 3, & Nicole Payne, 2, Warrenton, 23 April 2005

[LazyCat08]

I was struck by the fact that in this interview Dennis Payne persisted in calling Lottie Kain his "wife" over and over again.

This sounded strange since they aren't married and
surely he's smart enough to know that!

I used to live in South Carolina and the "Common law" marriage laws are very strict there - it may be that way in Georgia too....

 

[Sheromom]

I wouldn't attribute much to the husband saying "we" ran around the house looking for them. My husband often refers to something he does or I do as something "we" have done. After all, doesn't marriage make the "two become as one"? Not that they were married but the husband seemed to have thought they were.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I'm not judging the parents at all. My heart breaks for them. The only thing that stood out to me in the Nancy Grace transcript above was when he indicated that the wife and come back into the room and noticed the door wide open and they were gone. He said "we ran around the house, outside, calling their names, looking for them". Then a few sentences later, Nancy asked him where he was and he said he "wasn't home, was at work".

Maybe I'm reading into the conversation too much but it did jump out at me. Maybe she called him at work and then he came home and they were calling for them. I could be wrong.

I watched Nancy and listened to the conversation. I could tell that the dad had so much on his mind that he was all over the place. I believe he was very proud of his daughter and her strong personality. Someone said that they thought he was blaming the little girl but I didn't hear it that way. In his own way he was trying to explain her personality. When a person is grief stricken it is hard to tell what they may say or how they will say it. This dad was hurting and very confused about how this came to happen. Maybe he didn't get an A in english but he was doing the best that he could do at that time.

Someone else said that because the dad said that the children were his wifes first children....then it must mean that they plan to have more. I think he meant that they are her first born children...it didn't sound to me like he was saying that they plan to have more kids. I guess we can read anything into something if we set our mind to it.

I think these parents need prayer more than anything else right now. I did hear on one of the shows that their pastor came right away. Hopefully they will have support from their church.

Seems like we should be saying..."there but for the grace of God go I."

 

[aussieblue]

I was struck by the fact that in this interview Dennis Payne persisted in calling Lottie Kain his "wife" over and over again.

This sounded strange since they aren't married and
surely he's smart enough to know that!

They've been together for years maybe in his heart thats how he thinks of her (wife).
You think a marriage cert is the only thing that can make a man think of his women as wife????????

I always think its so funny when i read on these boards how SOME posters look down on those who are not married but in relationships. AS IF it makes them lower people for it.
Funny because I also read on here all the (certified) married murdered women (especially pregnant ones) killed by their husbands, child abuse (by husbands)
violence by husbands etc etc

So lets get real here a MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE does not insure, happiness, safety, security, true love, OR one thinking of the other as husband or wife.

Actually in Australia if living in a relationship for a certain amount of time its called a "defacto relationship" and in this relationship you have the same rights as if in a certified legal marriage.
Its no big deal here and more often than not people will live defacto before marrying.

I guess it all comes down to ones mentality/views/beliefs.

IMO Its nothing to do with his "smarts" it has everything to do with whats in his heart.

~aussieblue

 

[aussieblue]

Ive read all 28 pages, checked all the links (its taken all day here) and now I sit here very sad.
So sad for the kids and so very sad for the parents BECAUSE IMO its all so obvious to those in the know or for those with a understanding.
These parents are intellectually impaired and I'm guessing developmentally delayed.

This article says it all I think ...snippet

The state Division of Family and Children Services started monitoring the family in early 2003 because of concerns that the boy and girl had been left unattended, officials said. After determining the children were neglected, officials said, the agency provided to their parents, Lottie Kain and Dennis Payne, a variety of services and training, including parenting skills, housekeeping and decision-making. The DFCS case was closed in February.

This is called "TRANSITION PLANNING" and thats why the frequent visits, thats part and very necessary to the "plan". These visits if properly done will show progress or non-progress in the areas that these adults need help in.

Dena Smith, spokeswoman for the state Department of Human Resources, said an initial review of DFCS' actions indicates it dealt with the family appropriately. She said there was no indication the children should have been removed from the home. A routine internal investigation into the handling of the case is under way, officials said. Smith said the family routinely received weekly visits from the agency, the parents were receptive to the help and they were learning from it.

The key words here are ...
the parents were receptive to the help and they were learning from it.

Those that are developmentally delayed are slow to learn/comprehend/understand the meaning of or the consequences of .....
These people are very frustrating to teach/guide because it takes constant repetitive teaching/guiding/instructing for them to understand and thats IF they will ever get to fully understand/comprehend. Most time they DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND the whys or hows or why nots ect BUT just learn the procedure thats being taught to them.

Depending on the severity of the D.Delay these people are very capable of learning with the right guidance. Sadly though these people are to often neglected the help because of the time and commitment it takes to help with their transition. Plus most often societies attitude to these people is less than compassionate or understanding or even tolerate.

If I am correct (and im pretty sure i am) the very sad part here is that the child services (if they knew) should have seen to the security of the house eg:locks on doors etc especially since the neighbours say the kids go wandering often.

People who are D.delayed most often have short attention spans (they can be side-tracked very easily), have little understanding of time, have little understanding of dangers (unless they have been hurt by it eg:hot water burns. Once they know this though they will remember it).

I'm sorry for such a long post and i know now that there will be those who will now jump in and say "So what if they are, they still blah blah blah blah"

BUT please remember even if they are Intellectually impaired they STILL HAVE FEELINGS they still are capable of LOVING and most often intellectually impaired especially D.Delayed are very loving (can be very smothering in their love).

IMO the mum is considerably D.Delayed, the father midly D.delayed (maybe this is why/how they met, this often happens).

If they are (D.D) then the childrens death will be very traumatic for them as they will struggle with the understanding.
The dad continually states she is/was a good mum, he is very defensive about it. To US (society) we will see things that will show that her skills where lacking BUT to them i truly believe that they (especially the dad)thought they where doing good with their care. They will take this very hard i hope they are receiving guidance and support.

~aussieblue

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

JerseyGirl, I have four kids- 30, 26, 16 and 12. (And four grands) ALL kids go through about two years of bad behavior. But they come out of it again and are good. Just hang in; next year your child will be an angel again!

Thank you so much for that encouragement ... I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I hope she comes out of it soon before I'm committed! :crazy:

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Where is everyone seeing that CPS was visiting weekly? Remember the first several days, the cops said PLAINLY, there is no history of CPS intervention in this case.

I think that what was said initially is that there was no history of abuse.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

the children probably died late Saturday
night.--->>

These poor little angels must have wandered around for a while, and might have even still been doing so when the searchers were looking for them.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The inconsistency with the dad saying that "we" looked for them, and then saying that he was at work bothers me.

The fact that they bought a lock just that morning bothers me. The reason it does is that from what we've heard, the dad had to work that day. What time did he go to work? Did he buy it on his way to work and then bring it home with him that evening? The timing on the purchase of that lock seems awfully convenient, (in that it just happened to be the very same morning of the day these children died).

It's probably just a coincidence, and if so, even more of a tragedy for these parents.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I wouldn't attribute much to the husband saying "we" ran around the house looking for them. My husband often refers to something he does or I do as something "we" have done. After all, doesn't marriage make the "two become as one"? Not that they were married but the husband seemed to have thought they were.

I can see what you're saying but to say "we ran around looking for them" when you weren't even there is stretching that concept a bit, IMO. I can see if they said "We just bought a minivan" or "we threw a dinner party" but ...

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

aussieblue, you had very good posts. I agree with much of it. If these people are intellectually challenged, then it is truly just the saddest of stories all around. More probably could have and should have been done but at this point, that won't change what happened for Jonah & Nicole & their family.

I think that a lot of us here have inquisitive minds, and it's hard to get away from that sometimes to just look at the clear facts. We like to dig, and look for the nuances. But right on the surface, it seems that you, (and others that have pointed this out), might be completely right in your thinking that this couple is impaired. If that is factual, I wonder why they never did put locks on for this family. Maybe it happened quickly with the kids learning to get out. Sometimes it seems that they go to sleep as innocent little babies and wake up as curious, capable toddlers!

BTW, the defacto relationship you mentioned is called commonlaw marriage in the US. That's what someone was referring to in one of the posts on the previous page.

 

[Sally]

I think these parents need prayer more than anything else right now. I did hear on one of the shows that their pastor came right away. Hopefully they will have support from their church.

Seems like we should be saying..."there but for the grace of God go I."

:clap: :clap:

 

[Liz]

Aussieblue, thank you for your posts on the previous page. They were so enlightening. IF these parents were developmentally disabled, then this is even all the more tragic that the Children and Family Services personnel didn't recognize to the degree these people needed help.

Such a horrible way for those beautiful children to have died, in a pond full of sewage.

The whole story is just sad all the way around. I do feel badly for all involved.

 

[txsvicki]

I think that what was said initially is that there was no history of abuse.

Last night, Wednesday, on Nancy Grace, it was reported that the child services case ended in I believe January and was re opened one month later. It was also said that the children were neglected and that it why the child services was involved in the first place. I don't know how much more help from the community anyone could have gotten, don't know what kind of family this couple has, but short of taking the kids away there is not much more that could have been done. Whether the neglect was totally from some retardation, brain injuries, bad attitudes, drugs ( I doubt it) or whatever, this couple proved that they could not provide what child services considers a proper safe environment. If it's anything like Texas, then it must have been pretty bad. I hope this couple does not have any more children.

 

[aussieblue]

Last night, Wednesday, on Nancy Grace, it was reported that the child services case ended in I believe January and was re opened one month later. It was also said that the children were neglected and that it why the child services was involved in the first place. I don't know how much more help from the community anyone could have gotten, don't know what kind of family this couple has, but short of taking the kids away there is not much more that could have been done. Whether the neglect was totally from some retardation, brain injuries, bad attitudes, drugs ( I doubt it) or whatever, this couple proved that they could not provide what child services considers a proper safe environment. If it's anything like Texas, then it must have been pretty bad. I hope this couple does not have any more children.

Your post leaves me very confused txsvicki

For starters Abuse and Level of Care are 2 seperate things. I know now i will get flamed for saying that BUT if you work in or live in this field you'd understand the evaluation process and the differences of the 2.

Your Child Protection people has stated NO abuse of the children.
Its a Level of Care problem. Thats why the weekly visits (Transition Planning).
These visits are to help teach/guide the parents in life skills/family skills/problem solving etc etc.

I will quote again what was in the news article i read ....

Dena Smith, spokeswoman for the state Department of Human Resources, said an initial review of DFCS' actions indicates it dealt with the family appropriately. She said there was no indication the children should have been removed from the home. A routine internal investigation into the handling of the case is under way, officials said. Smith said the family routinely received weekly visits from the agency, the parents were receptive to the help and they were learning from it.

In your post above you state ...

don't know what kind of family this couple has, but short of taking the kids away there is not much more that could have been done. Whether the neglect was totally from some retardation, brain injuries, bad attitudes, drugs ( I doubt it) or whatever, this couple proved that they could not provide what child services considers a proper safe environment. If it's anything like Texas, then it must have been pretty bad. I hope this couple does not have any more children

In red is why Im so confused BECAUSE your Child services DIDNT consider taking the children away. They where happy with the way things where going.
Youre stating things that are not accurate, you state, things must have been pretty bad???????? thats not what your child services thought and if they did think that THEN WHY WHERE THEY LEFT IN THEIR MUM AND DADS CARE????????

What i find so sad about this is people are so quick to lynch the parents unyet they (family) where under care of your DFCS.
If the level of care was at a high risk for those children then they should have removed the children THATS THEIR JOB.
People with intellectual impairments/disabilities are just that IMPAIRED/DISABLED. Thats why society has services to help these people.

If the services let these people down (as in care/support/guidance/decision making) tragedies like this happen.

~aussieblue

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Youre stating things that are not accurate, you state, things must have been pretty bad???????? thats not what your child services thought and if they did think that THEN WHY WHERE THEY LEFT IN THEIR MUM AND DADS CARE????????

Unfortunately, this seems to happen frequently here. The main goal is to keep the family together, (which is good). Oftentimes, however, I think that the social workers keep the children in the household and offer skills training simply because the system is so overburdened, there aren't enough foster families, and there are problems at least as big, (if not bigger), in the foster care system.

Whether these parents were deemed negiligent in 2003 wasn't the original question to which I was responding. Apparently a news reporter must have asked, "Is there any history of abuse in the family?", to which LE probably simply answered "no". He wasn't lying or necessarily unaware of the negiligence ... there was no abuse. LE simply didn't elaborate on the presence of negligence. Maybe they didn't want the media to go crazy before the kids were found; maybe he was protecting the parents ...

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Today's news reports quote the district attorney as saying the case will be presented to the next grand jury which convenes in July. The DA will or won't ask the GJ to act, depending on the outcome of the still-ongoing police investigation.

The investigation will hopefully be able to conclude according to evidence whether there was criminal neglect which should result in charges or whether this was tragically accidental.

 

[aussieblue]

aussieblue, you had very good posts. I agree with much of it. If these people are intellectually challenged, then it is truly just the saddest of stories all around. More probably could have and should have been done but at this point, that won't change what happened for Jonah & Nicole & their family.

So true nothing will change what has happened to Jonah and Nicole and thats why i find it so sad BECAUSE IMO it could have been preventable and also these parents will now be lynched by the mob and IMO its the DFCS that should be lynched.

I think that a lot of us here have inquisitive minds, and it's hard to get away from that sometimes to just look at the clear facts. We like to dig, and look for the nuances. But right on the surface, it seems that you, (and others that have pointed this out), might be completely right in your thinking that this couple is impaired.

After 23 years involvement you become very intuned to the mannerisms/characteristics/behaviours of people who have a form/degree of intellectual impairment and also 20 years involvement of people with physical disabilities.
I'm not saying I'm spot on with all i have said BUT boy what i have seen/heard and read about these parents IMHO says to me Developmental delay for sure. To what degree/level only your DFCS would know and I'm sure they are not about to let the media know about that as right now they are in damage control.

If that is factual, I wonder why they never did put locks on for this family. Maybe it happened quickly with the kids learning to get out. Sometimes it seems that they go to sleep as innocent little babies and wake up as curious, capable toddlers

Again so true about 1 minute babies next minute curious toddlers.

Ok let me run this by you as what you said above is very pertaining to why im grrrrrrrrrr on your DFCS.

In the media its been reported that NEGLECT (level of care) is why the DFCS was involved with this family. So DFCS was helping with parenting skills/life skills/problem solving etc (very serious isues there)
Also reported that neighbours had complained about the children wandering/escaping of late and had previously been left home alone. Now add to this all those ponds/lakes that are close to the house.
Now why is it that all these pages of posts here on this board,have been people saying "young kids, wandering, ponds/lakes close to home, no locks on the doors = DANGER, THESE PARENTS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!"
How come posters can see the dangers BUT the DFCS didnt??????? ITS THEIR JOB to see dangers, Its their job to help with problem solving/guidance etc etc and if need be TO TAKE CONTROL OF A SITUATION.

This family was having weekly visits (transitional visits) so they surely can not say WE DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS PROBS. These probs/dangers where so damn obvious that the common people can see them, yet DFCS didnt???

Sadly the parents will get lynched and DFCS will say there was nothing more we could have done. Its a revolving door and it will keep being so because so- called normal society accepts it that way.

~aussieblue

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I've seen so-called "full functioning" adults do the stupidest things when it comes to children. Y'all pretty much know how I stand on this case, but if there is a mental disability that this woman suffers from, then I don't see what putting her in jail is going to accomplish. I'd personally like for it to be legal that they prevent her from ever having any more children, but this is America.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Now why is it that all these pages of posts here on this board,have been people saying "young kids, wandering, ponds/lakes close to home, no locks on the doors = DANGER, THESE PARENTS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!"
How come posters can see the dangers BUT the DFCS didnt??????? ITS THEIR JOB to see dangers, Its their job to help with problem solving/guidance etc etc and if need be TO TAKE CONTROL OF A SITUATION.

This family was having weekly visits (transitional visits) so they surely can not say WE DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS PROBS. These probs/dangers where so damn obvious that the common people can see them, yet DFCS didnt???

The only rationale I can come up with is that the neighbors there know their neck of the woods much better than DFCS. They live there with the dangers specific to that area every day, have had to protect their own children against those dangers, and have had to adapt to them. DFCS probably goes from one case to the next to the next ... day in and day out. Their focus was probably on helping these people to organize & clean, manage money, supervise the kids, make dinner, etc, (depending on the level of help that they needed). I think that they were probably so focused on the immediate danger that the children faced INSIDE the house that they never really thought about the dangers outside of the house. I bet if you asked their case workers, they probably would have guessed that before these kids drowned in a local pond, they would have swallowed poison, or stuck their fingers in a socket, or fallen off of a countertop - household injuries from not being supervised. I don't know how recently DFCS knew, (or if they even did), about the fact that the children were starting to get out of the house.