GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #10

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just for our reference in this discussion, might be helpful:

link: http://www.macon.com/2011/06/30/1616531/body-found-mercer-law-giddings.html



QUOTE:
The section of Georgia Avenue between Orange Street and Nisbet Place was closed for much of Thursday during the investigation. Dogs from Villa Rica-based K9 Search & Rescue Specialists searched the area Thursday afternoon.
Police spokeswoman Jami Gaudet said she couldn’t confirm what type of dogs were being used or what exactly the dogs were searching for.
“They’re looking for clues,” she said.


But I am not sure if this is the first dog search (with the dogs brought in with help from the family friend in Atlanta) or second one...?(Neither of these searches was Golba, that came later)

eta: seeing bessie's post below here, I believe the search referenced above must be the first
 
Bumping up my post from the other night about the second search by Dooly County K-9's on July 7. I think it's important to note that this second unit alerted on the same locations as the first team.

6. A K-9 search and rescue unit from Dooly County has volunteered to conduct a second search of Lauren’s apartment complex and of the surrounding area. The search team will be in Macon tomorrow, Friday, July 8, beginning at the complex and expanding their search outward. MPD is most appreciative of the concern and support shown by groups such as this.
http://maconpolice.us/?p=942
South Georgia K-9 Search and Rescue dogs gave the crime scene at Lauren Giddings' apartment on Georgia Avenue another thorough search Friday morning, in addition to other locations of interest..

Macon Police Chief Mike Burns burns says that Dooly County's K-9 Search and Rescue unit hit several areas that previous K-9 units have shown interest in, but no new evidence was found...

The K-9 unit did not search Stephen McDaniel's apartment - next door to Giddings'. Chief Burns says investigators are no longer searching his apartment, although he is still a person of interest in the case. No one has been named a suspect yet.
http://www.newscentralga.com/news/l...Dooly-Sheriffs-Office-K-9-Dogs-125214739.html

Since we're listing reference sites, I'd like to post this one again.. Oesterhelweg's carpet square study is linked here plus numerous other studies. They can be found under the Topic Index on the right.
Paws of Life
 
Smooth, I should have clarified that. I wasn't saying dogs hitting in the back would be questionable to the DT. I was saying since the dog only hit in the back of the apt, the DT could say how does LE know that the dogs wouldn't have hit in the back of other apts too. If there was no smell at the front of the other apts the dogs would not have hit at the door, yet there could have been "hits" at the back. Does that make sense? I'm not saying I believe it, just saying it could be reasonable doubt on the dog hits. All goes back to the fact that no apt was searched that the dogs didn't hit.
I see your thought process regarding "controls" and the defense team, but realistically, how many different apartments could her remains have occupied in those 4-5 days??? Three is already three too, too many!
 
just for our reference in this discussion, might be helpful:

link: http://www.macon.com/2011/06/30/1616531/body-found-mercer-law-giddings.html



QUOTE:
The section of Georgia Avenue between Orange Street and Nisbet Place was closed for much of Thursday during the investigation. Dogs from Villa Rica-based K9 Search & Rescue Specialists searched the area Thursday afternoon.
Police spokeswoman Jami Gaudet said she couldn’t confirm what type of dogs were being used or what exactly the dogs were searching for.
“They’re looking for clues,” she said.


But I am not sure if this is the first dog search (with the dogs brought in with help from the family friend in Atlanta) or second one...?(Neither of these searches was Golba, that came later)
It would've been the first one since the second one took place July 7.

ETA: I wonder if it was this group: http://www.k9sars.org/OurDogs.html
 
Good thoughts in this post 3doglady. I know in other case threads I have posted in, the results from canine "hits" are sometimes called into question and become a hotly debated topic.

I don't remember know much about controls. So in other words, every time a search for human remains is performed, there is a control scenario involved?

The dogs didn't hit everywhere. IIRC, the dogs were also taken throughout the complex which I thought meant; up to the doors of the remaining apartments and parking lot. I also think if the scent would have been inside one of the other apartments, the dog would have sounded the alarm at the door. I may be wrong, but in observing my own untrained dogs, a door or enclosed space doesn't keep their little nose from working when something interesting is there.

In addition, the dogs were taken all around the area surrounding BH, the river and I believe the landfill?

Websleuths has some extremely knowledgeable posters on the subject of the dogs.

Sarx, a verified Search and Rescue person, is one of them, I believe, and so is Oriah (I think). They haven't visited our thread, to my knowledge, but there are a few other RL SAR members here, and they might help bust some of they myths associated with the dogs.

Bessie, you probably know who the dog experts are, might one of them shed some light on this subject for us?
 
I was just in Villa Rica. Small town outside Atlanta about 2 hrs from Macon. Wow, those dogs got there fast. Maybe those are the ones the Atlanta friend called in.
 
Websleuths has some extremely knowledgeable posters on the subject of the dogs.

Sarx, a verified Search and Rescue person, is one of them, I believe. He hasn't visited our thread, to my knowledge, but there are a few other RL SAR members here, and they might help bust some of they myths associated with the dogs.

Bessie, you probably know who the dog experts are, might one of them shed some light on this subject for us?

I hope so. I'm really fascinated by the topic, in general.
 
Websleuths has some extremely knowledgeable posters on the subject of the dogs.

Sarx, a verified Search and Rescue person, is one of them, I believe. He hasn't visited our thread, to my knowledge, but there are a few other RL SAR members here, and they might help bust some of they myths associated with the dogs.

Bessie, you probably know who the dog experts are, might one of them shed some light on this subject for us?
Oriah was just here but we didn't have enough information. So, before we ask Oriah or anyone else to come over and answer our questions, we should list our questions and do some preliminary information gathering.

ETA: If it's the Villa Rica group I linked, they do have one dog trained exclusively in HRD. But I'm not sure if that's the group. Still looking for more.
 
Just catching up here... but wanted to make a general observation. (MOO of course)
I doubt seriously that the DA is going to present anything about what search dogs hit on as part of their evidence to convict SM.
The dogs were a tool used to help LE determine where the crime scene may have been and find other missing parts or clues.
It's hard to second guess why LE may have used the dogs where they did or in the manner they used them,
since we have no idea what evidence they found very early on.
I think the evidence LE has accumulated and the case the DA will present will be strong enough
that if Buford tries to quibble over LE's use of search dogs to the jury, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

ETA: not that the discussion isn't interesting :peace:
 
From K9 Snoop's (verified K9 SAR and Police SAR Management) post on Hailey Dunn's thread, they indicate that the type of dog used can determine the tracking out come, fwiw.

Prison dogs are trained more to institutional scent then specific human scent. I've worked with some prison hounds that when you gave them an item that contained the institutional scent with the human scent worked like a house on fire. But give them a "pure" human scent article and they did less well. Normally, they fizzled out at about the quarter-mile mark or at the end of a city block even when it’s known the subject left on foot. Most had trouble just getting out of the front yard. The ones of my experience are not trained for car trails (following subject scent coming from a motor vehicle). This is because once a subject gets into a car the speed at which they can travel far exceeds the speed of a on-foot team and they will never, ever catch up so from LE’s point of view, what’s the point? If the guy’s got a 4 hour head start that is later compounded by being in a vehicle there is no way that a dog working at 15-20 minute miles is ever going to catch up with a car traveling 50 mph. It’s also very dangerous for the trailing team due to the other vehicles also using the roadway even when you have marked units trying to protect the team.

When using trailing dogs (or any scenting dog) the answer is not always black and white but depends heavily on the skills of the individual team. What one team can do, another team may be unable. Not all dogs are created equal but must be judged as individuals. Handlers, too. And sometimes the handler doesn’t do the right job framing out to the dog what they want them to answer so the dog is confused about what you want them to do. Anyone who works a trailing dog never, ever stops learning.

Taking a dog to locations is a scent tactic under the broadly labeled category of “scent matching”. Scent matching is used to tie specific human scent to an object, location, or action. Here it can be a bit tricky and there's a few things handlers have to keep in mind. 1) has the subject been in that location before, recently, or within the scent timeframe the dog is trained for 2) has a close member of the family or significant other been at the location. If there is no reason for the subject to have been at that location then the dog, when taken to that location, should have absolutely no reason to indicate a matching scent in that area. The danger is that family/significant other can have that person’s scent on their clothing or vehicle due to their living in the same household and living together. This residual scent can be enough to trigger the dogs and give a positive indication even though the subject has not been there.

The other tricky half is that when you "drop" a dog to check for scent, you are dropping them into that area. They didn't work themselves there from the PLS. So you are placing them into the unknown. The dog CANNOT tell you “Oops, this is X number of days/hours old while that stuff back at the house was much fresher or only this old.” Now based on the dog/handler’s training and experience, the handler can sometimes draw a conclusion that the odor is “fresher” or “older” based on canine working behavior. If the scent is present and at a level the dog can detect then you will get a positive indication and sometimes the handler can have a good idea on the age but the handler has to be able to read their dog.

So by dropping dogs at locations where, for a variety of reasons, you believe the subject may have gone to then you do it because it can find you a loose thread that ends up as a valid lead.

Now scent age. If I'm on a trail and that person loops back over their same track, I expect my dog to abandon the older odor and cross over to the fresher track. The same can happen if they airscent fresher odor on the wind versus what they have on the ground. The dog will raise their head and work like an airscent dog following that odor to the scent source. (disclaimer: this is NOT TRUE for dogs trained as a tracking or non-scent specific patrol dog)

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6109990&postcount=16
 
Just catching up here... but wanted to make a general observation. (MOO of course)
I doubt seriously that the DA is going to present anything about what search dogs hit on as part of their evidence to convict SM.
The dogs were a tool used to help LE determine where the crime scene may have been and find other missing parts or clues.
It's hard to second guess why LE may have used the dogs where they did or in the manner they used them,
since we have no idea what evidence they found very early on.
I think the evidence LE has accumulated and the case the DA will present will be strong enough
that if Buford tries to quibble over LE's use of search dogs to the jury, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

That's what I thought in the Anthony case. Unfortunately the jury didn't believe the dogs.:maddening:
 
Oriah was just here but we didn't have enough information. So, before we ask Oriah or anyone else to come over and answer our questions, we should list our questions and do some preliminary information gathering.

ETA: If it's the Villa Rica group I linked, they do have one dog trained exclusively in HRD. But I'm not sure if that's the group. Still looking for more.

Okay, good idea. I will catch up on the thread first, sorry. Just jumped in on the dog discussion, geesh, I better get my act together! :silenced:
 
Just catching up here... but wanted to make a general observation. (MOO of course)
I doubt seriously that the DA is going to present anything about what search dogs hit on as part of their evidence to convict SM.
The dogs were a tool used to help LE determine where the crime scene may have been and find other missing parts or clues.
It's hard to second guess why LE may have used the dogs where they did or in the manner they used them,
since we have no idea what evidence they found very early on.
I think the evidence LE has accumulated and the case the DA will present will be strong enough
that if Buford tries to quibble over LE's use of search dogs to the jury, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

ETA: not that the discussion isn't interesting
:peace:

on first part of what I bolded: Perhaps so, but I still find it fascinating...

on second part bolded: that's what I mean!
 
From K9 Snoop's (verified K9 SAR and Police SAR Management) post on Hailey Dunn's thread, they indicate that the type of dog used can determine the tracking out come, fwiw.

Don't know how well it relates here, but very interesting, Wondergirl, thanks for posting that!
 
That's what I thought in the Anthony case. Unfortunately the jury didn't believe the dogs.:maddening:

Well . . .

It's probably less upsetting to a doglady to say that the jury didn't believe the handlers. Or, didn't believe the reliability of the handlers' interpretations of the dogs' actions.

I agree with SS that we probably will not see HRD evidence in the trial of this case. If we do, it means Winters is worried about his ability to convince the jury of guilt with his other evidence.
 
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