GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #3

[tlcya]

About three hours after death, rigor mortis -- a stiffening of muscles -- sets in. Around 12 hours after death, the body will feel cool, and within 24 hours (depending on body fat and external temperatures), it will lose all internal heat in a process called algor mortis.

SNIP

The environment in which a dead body is placed also affects its rate of decay. For instance, bodies in water decompose twice as fast as those left unburied on land. Decomposition is slowest underground -- especially in clay or other solid substances that prevent air from reaching the body since most bacteria require oxygen to survive.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm

The decomposition of a dead body depends on many factors, any of which can affect the time necessary to break it down.

SNIP

The most important factor in decomposition time is how much exposure the body has had to bacteria. Bacteria need oxygen to survive and are generally found in heavy concentrations in water. Therefore, exposure to air or water will speed up the process of decomposition dramatically.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/take-dead-body-to-decompose

here is a paper from 2006 which seems to be a scholarly work. Off to read it now, apologies if it turns out to not be helpful as I haven't read it yet but it looks promising.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-007-0028-z#page-2

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/06/26/justin-ross-harris-cooper-search-animal-hot-car-die

This media source describes the CPR and the scene at the pizza place, per one bystander.

Great sleuthing, Lightlady!

:websleuther:

 

[tlcya]

Progression through the physical stages of decomposition was 3–4 days faster in the enclosed vehicle due to higher temperatures there compared to external ambient temperatures. Patterns of insect succession also differed between the vehicle and surface treatments. Carcass attendance by representatives of the Calliphoridae was delayed within the vehicle environment by 16–18 h, while oviposition was not observed until 24–28 h following death. In contrast, attendance by Calliphoridae at surface carcasses occurred within 1 h of death, and oviposition occurred within 6–8 h of death.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-007-0028-z#page-3

 

[hopingicanhelp]

:twocents:

I don't understand anyone to be stating that soiled diaper smells like decomposition, however --

Cooper was still in diapers.
He had gone to breakfast with Daddy at Chick-Fil-A that morning, so food was being digested.
It doesn't take more than a couple of hours tops for a child that age to dirty his diaper after breakfast.
Harris came back to the car for lunch -- exact time not confirmed, approximately "mid-day" -- more than a couple of hours.
The smell of dirty diaper combined with the heat SHOULD have made him notice SOMETHING at that time.
Was it enough to trigger not remembering to take Cooper to daycare? I don't know as I'm not a memory expert BUT at the very least it should have been enough for him to notice & wonder, "Geez, why does my car smell so damn bad?"

So, I guess my point is that we don't have to be experts about decomp, but we can recall experiences that we've had so far as heat mixed with poo. And then we can wonder what we might do at that moment...

... at the very least???

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

About three hours after death, rigor mortis -- a stiffening of muscles -- sets in. Around 12 hours after death, the body will feel cool, and within 24 hours (depending on body fat and external temperatures), it will lose all internal heat in a process called algor mortis.

SNIP

The environment in which a dead body is placed also affects its rate of decay. For instance, bodies in water decompose twice as fast as those left unburied on land. Decomposition is slowest underground -- especially in clay or other solid substances that prevent air from reaching the body since most bacteria require oxygen to survive.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm

The decomposition of a dead body depends on many factors, any of which can affect the time necessary to break it down.

SNIP

The most important factor in decomposition time is how much exposure the body has had to bacteria. Bacteria need oxygen to survive and are generally found in heavy concentrations in water. Therefore, exposure to air or water will speed up the process of decomposition dramatically.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/take-dead-body-to-decompose

here is a paper from 2006 which seems to be a scholarly work. Off to read it now, apologies if it turns out to not be helpful as I haven't read it yet but it looks promising.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12024-007-0028-z#page-2

Thanks?! Anything on children having a faster process?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

:twocents:

I don't understand anyone to be stating that soiled diaper smells like decomposition, however --

Cooper was still in diapers.
He had gone to breakfast with Daddy at Chick-Fil-A that morning, so food was being digested.
It doesn't take more than a couple of hours tops for a child that age to dirty his diaper after breakfast.
Harris came back to the car for lunch -- exact time not confirmed, approximately "mid-day" -- more than a couple of hours.
The smell of dirty diaper combined with the heat SHOULD have made him notice SOMETHING at that time.
Was it enough to trigger not remembering to take Cooper to daycare? I don't know as I'm not a memory expert BUT at the very least it should have been enough for him to notice & wonder, "Geez, why does my car smell so damn bad?"

So, I guess my point is that we don't have to be experts about decomp, but we can recall experiences that we've had so far as heat mixed with poo. And then we can wonder what we might do at that moment...

... at the very least???

I am not saying that dirty diapers smell like decay, Just that there is no source for the smell and that even if it was smelly it could just be smelly from child waste, Not decay..

 

[Linda7NJ]

I would never suggest a dirty diaper can be mistaken for decomp. Plenty of parents can get used to the stinky smell of a diaper. No one gets used to the smell of death.



Can you guys link to info supporting your statements? Because JeannaT linked to actual info. I don;t have reason to accept one position over another as to what actually happens with decomp except via linked articles. Do children decompose faster? Does heat accelerate the process (I think it does) and if so, by how fast?

Intense heat inside of car speeds up the process of decomposition. Enzymes literally start the decomp process within minutes of death...
Heat speeds up the process...
Bacteria and stomach enzymes ...shiver...


Closed up in a hot car....
Couldn't ask for anything better to speed up the process.

IMO

Google ,.. I can't...I'm getting ready to eat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Linda7NJ]

Whoever tried to administer CPR to the child, they were not interviewed by a news station.
They were probably being interviewed themselves and advised not to discuss the case. IMO the would be called to testify at a trial.
The people interviewed were onlookers.

I also am thinking about how the father was reportedly acting after finding out his sone was dead. Pulling at.the leaves on the trees etc....

If the SUV smelled like his sweet toddler why not return to it and sit down? In most situations regarding vehicles and police don't pro usually remain in their cars while waiting on police?

I guess they could have told him her couldn't get back in it.
moo


IMO he as walking around in circles because of the smell.

He was walking around in circles because he was acting...
IMO

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[hopingicanhelp]

I am not saying that dirty diapers smell like decay, Just that there is no source for the smell and that even if it was smelly it could just be smelly from child waste, Not decay..

Hey Scarlett,
I know!!
I wasn't directing that at you or anyone specifically -- it seemed there were several posts that mentioned decay & waste and whether you could mistake them (or inferred the thought), etc... so I was just stating my point, which is that common sense (to me) would state that visiting his car mid-day would give him quite the unpleasant surprise of some sort odor-wise, decay or not.

 

[Judicious1]

No, he didn't die days before. You're right - and LE knows that now too.

But I would think a cop on the scene in the mall - where Dad is crying and saying his baby was fine this morning and now he's accidentally dead would think that was a total lie if he could smell a strong smell of decomposition. The first thought would be, this is a total farce.

It was later when the other evidence about going to breakfast, etc. came out. The Cop's very first impression - in my opinion - has been what's colored this entire investigation.

And I suspect it's because they've dealt with dead bodies, they know a freshly deceased baby doesn't smell so horrible after this little time.

Or anyway, something made them IMMEDIATELY decide Harris was guilty and lying.

I'm thinking the fact he said he was choking which clearly wasn't the case tipped them off....

 

[LietKynes]

That quote from cobb bothers me a lot. There was no need for it. It is just trying to get everyone upset and start the hunt. He really should have said nothing more than there is a current investigation.

I don't know if I believe anything more at this point. I just am not sure. But this kind of commenting helps nothing IMPO.

BBM

That was a balanced viewpoint, ScarlettScarpetta. Very hard to be objective at all about this case...and what we think we know based on msm articles.
Any of us here who are parents are reeling at the thought of how anyone could harm their own flesh and blood.

I was thinking that Cobb's comment was more like a gut reaction. Sometimes we don't always choose our words carefully.
I'm also thinking what he said was maybe a "lighter" comment compared to what he actually saw or what le uncovered that we aren't privy to ?
It doesn't appear like he had it in for J. Harris personally and wanted to vilify him... but if you've lived as long as I have -- nothing surprises me any more.
Well , almost nothing.
:moo:

 

[katydid23]

...and I would like to add that the witness or witnesses saying that Harris was behaving like he was "acting" or "theatrical" didn't start coming in until almost a week later. The only thing I smelled then was witness tampering. ... And for those beating the drum, no one denies that the actions of the father led to the death of this child. This thread is about more "sinister" motives and is not a memorial to this poor, poor child. I can't drive the a parking lot without being haunted by this terrible tragedy. But the " I can't believe a parent could forget" argument is cliche and is meant for another group. ... Because they do....whether you understand it or not ... Whether you endorse laws against it or not... Approximately one in ten million American humans (mostly children) will die in a hot car a year until some inventor and manufacturers solve it.

BBM

I can easily believe that a person can forget, under certain circumstances. But not under THESE particular ones. It was less than a 5 minute drive from breakfast to his office. And his little boy was verbal, chatty and wide awake.

So how does a father eat breakfast with his son, then buckle him in his seat, and totally forget about him within 5 minutes? That is what makes no sense to me.

I remember a father who forgot about his son in the car, in another case. This man had 2 jobs, and did not usually drop his child off, so he totally forgot. That case I understand. Plus he drove 30 minutes on the fwy, and the baby was asleep.

 

[JeannaT]

Because the child was fried in a dry sauna over a seven hour period @ temps between 130-175*. Ever opened a hot trunk with something left inside? :seeya:

MOOYA.

I've never left a dead body in my trunk, if that's what you're asking.

But yes, I did leave a 5 pound package of hamburger meat in my car one morning and only discovered it the next morning after it had been in the trunk - in summer heat - for about 24 hours.

It didn't smell bad. But I did throw it away.

 

[tlcya]

I know the climate temperatures are not the same as the link. But it does speak to weight of the body and how decomp rates are affected by same


The effect of body size on the rate of decomposition in a temperate region of
South Africa http://repository.up.ac.za/xmlui/bitstream/handle/2263/32208/Sutherland_Effect(2013).pdf?sequence=1

 

[JudyBolton]

Thin bodies and bodies of children and infants will also cool faster than that of an obese adult because of the surface area to body mass ratio. Furthermore, an obese corpse will take longer to cool because of the insulation provided by subcutaneous fat.


The period of development is influenced by factors such as:

Temperature of the environment - High temperatures both accelerates the onset of rigor mortis and shortens its duration; if the temperature is below 10°C, development of rigor mortis is considered rare.


The processes of death and decomposition: http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A2451683

NOW - everyone here will have to promise to vouch for on another if anything happens and they find one of us has been "searching" online for information on body decomposition....

 

[JudyBolton]

Thin bodies and bodies of children and infants will also cool faster than that of an obese adult because of the surface area to body mass ratio. Furthermore, an obese corpse will take longer to cool because of the insulation provided by subcutaneous fat.


The period of development is influenced by factors such as:

Temperature of the environment - High temperatures both accelerates the onset of rigor mortis and shortens its duration; if the temperature is below 10°C, development of rigor mortis is considered rare.


The processes of death and decomposition: http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A2451683

NOW - everyone here will have to promise to vouch for one another if anything happens and they find one of us has been "searching" online for information on body decomposition....

 

[Judicious1]

Randy Travis is an EXCEPTIONAL reporter with inside sources you don't have privy. It's obvious someone with Cobb county police force told Randy. Many times reporters get inside info "off the record". Common practice. HTH.

I know who he is I live in GA. I didn't say anything negative about him nor his source. I said no police rep has said this to the press. Randy said someone close to the investigation told him so that could be a cop or not who knows. I also know in the first weeks of investigations information floats around that turns out not to be true. For days some outlets reported they had 2 kids and they don't. I'm sure Randy will turn out correct but I'm going to hold off until someone is willing to own the comment.

 

[tlcya]

Thin bodies and bodies of children and infants will also cool faster than that of an obese adult because of the surface area to body mass ratio. Furthermore, an obese corpse will take longer to cool because of the insulation provided by subcutaneous fat.


The period of development is influenced by factors such as:

Temperature of the environment - High temperatures both accelerates the onset of rigor mortis and shortens its duration; if the temperature is below 10°C, development of rigor mortis is considered rare.


The processes of death and decomposition: http://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A2451683

NOW - everyone here will have to promise to vouch for on another if anything happens and they find one of us has been "searching" online for information on body decomposition....

I have had enough conversations with coworkers and googled enough odd stuff about death and murder to know it will look very bad if my searches are ever publicized out of context!

I actually thought that in relation to a possible defense argument being there was this story in the news everyone was discussing. Of course then the pros would need witnesses to substantiate.

So I doubt that argument would go far.

 

[hopingicanhelp]

NOW - everyone here will have to promise to vouch for one another if anything happens and they find one of us has been "searching" online for information on body decomposition....

:floorlaugh: If you and I have both thought the same things as typing things into Google, we CAN'T be the only ones....

Although, can you imagine a Nancy Grace-type prosecutor??? "Sooooo.... You are telling me that you want THIS JURY to BELIEVE that you are some kind of DETECTIVE on the world.wide.WEB? And this was some sort of voluntary RE-SEARCH? Puh - leese. Do NOT insult the intelligence of the jury afforded you by the CONSTITUTION of the United States of America!! And do NOT insult ME! Judge, just cut her mic! I'm through with this witness!"

Don't worry, I'll vouch for ya.

 

[tlcya]

I've never left a dead body in my trunk, if that's what you're asking.

But yes, I did leave a 5 pound package of hamburger meat in my car one morning and only discovered it the next morning after it had been in the trunk - in summer heat - for about 24 hours.

It didn't smell bad. But I did throw it away.

was it hermetically sealed in plastic?