GA - Suspicion over heat death of Cooper, 22 mo., Cobb County, June 2014, #6

[RainCheck]

JMO on "the smell" since it has come up again.
There would be no decomp smell after 7 hours. Skin would be gray/blue especially in legs and lower abdomen. The body would be in intermediate stages of rigor. Gases and fluids would be released when someone picked the toddler up, and WOULD be somewhat overwhelming after "CPR" was attempted. The toddler would have been in the beginning stages of "bloat" meaning that skin is still intact and trying to contain the building volume of gas and liquid from inside he body. So, the smell would have been more hydrogen sulfide and methane, and not so much "death" or decay.

The gases and fluid would look like vomit, and smell putrid after he body was disturbed and jostled, but not necessarily before. If the body temp was lower than the air temp (likely) and the AC was turned on, the body would "sweat" - its just thermodynamics.

The car would definitely smell worse AFTER the body was jostled that before. If gases (and especially liquids) were released while the toddler was being extracted from the car seat, and would be VERY noticeable. Even more noticeable if one cop told another "come smell this". That's just human nature.

again, IMO - there would be no smell associated with death at noon

Source - 30+ years in a hospital environment including morgue/death investigation activity. This included being on duty when a mother in denial brought he deceased baby to the ER because he would "not eat and kept spitting up and had really bad diarrhea"

I don't know how much of the smell would have to be decomp. When my 21 month has a bowel movement I can smell it across the room it's awful! In a car it's like someone set off a stink bomb! It's gag worthy! At the park the other day he was playing with a group of older girls and they brought him over to me and asked if I could change him because he stank too much to play with, lol! Once, he silently vomited on himself in his rearfacing car and the smell quickly wafted up into my nostrils. I knew immediately he had puked and pulled over as fast as I could to check on him! I can imagine how horrible my car would smell if he died in it and his bowel movement, urine, vomit and stress sweat baked at hot temps for 7 hours or so. IMO you don't need decomp to have a very bad, strong smell in that car! My son would have had two bowel movements in that time period on a normal day. I would imagine between suffering and then dying, Cooper Harris would have had a few. Anyone who has been around groups of children has noticed a "stinker" in the group when one of them has a bowel movement. Then everybody has to check if its coming from their baby or not. I'm sure Copper's father knows what that smells like!

 

[Linda7NJ]

A motive is not supposed to be necessary to prove the neglect/cruelty charge, but it sure would help. Jurors recently IMO are stupid. And they need lots of dots connected - so yes, it would be lovely if we had some motive because I think jurors would have an easier time with this case but it is not required if a juror follows the jury instructions and the letter of the law while deliberating. Again JMO

I've noticed a lack of common sense and critical thinking skills lately ...it's really very frightening. IMO


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[gngr~snap]

I think anyone who lives in the South, and who has gotten into their car on a hot afternoon and has felt the sweltering heat of the interior of that car before the a/c cools it down knows without a shadow of a doubt how blazing hot a car becomes when it sits in the sun in the summertime.

I don't think it takes a genius to know that.

These two are college educated people - one with a degree in computer sciences, the other a degree in nutrition (which requires many life science courses).

These two have lived in the South their entire lives. They would know that cars get hot in the summertime. Just parking for a few minutes to run into the grocery store, they would have experienced a miserably hot car upon return on more than one occasion during the course of their lives.

Hot car deaths regarding pets and children are featured on the nightly news often enough that most folks have heard about at least one tragic story during their lifetimes.

I firmly believe that if a parent was truly fearful they might forget their child in the car, they would take proactive steps to ensure it would never happen. They would find a method that works for them to prevent it from happening.

Researching how hot a car needs to be for a child to die is not, IMO, seeking a solution to prevent forgetting. To me, it smacks of seeking information about how to go about either leaving a child in a car without killing them, or how to kill a child in a hot car.

As others have posted in these threads, I, too, wonder if they have a history of occasionally leaving their child in the car.

At this point, based on the available information, it doesn't appear to me that prevention methods were the objective with the online searches. If more information comes out that shows they looked up tips and tricks to prevent accidentally forgetting, I'll gladly change my mind.

She graduated *advertiser censored* Laude. Can I say that?
She is one smart cookie.
I saw a graduation date of Dec 07 and looked to see if she was on the list.
*advertiser censored* Laude was a surprise!

 

[newone]

I don't know how much of the smell would have to be decomp. When my 21 month has a bowel movement I can smell it across the room it's awful! In a car it's like someone set off a stink bomb! It's gag worthy! At the park the other day he was playing with a group of older girls and they brought him over to me and asked if I could change him because he stank too much to play with, lol! Once, he silently vomited on himself in his rearfacing car and the smell quickly wafted up into my nostrils. I knew immediately he had puked and pulled over as fast as I could to check on him! I can imagine how horrible my car would smell if he died in it and his bowel movement, urine, vomit and stress sweat baked at hot temps for 7 hours or so. IMO you don't need decomp to have a very bad, strong smell in that car! My son would have had two bowel movements in that time period on a normal day. I would imagine between suffering and then dying, Cooper Harris would have had a few. Anyone who has been around groups of children has noticed a "stinker" in the group when one of them has a bowel movement. Then everybody has to check if its coming from their baby or not. I'm sure Copper's father knows what that smells like!

Thanks for the memories.

First two lines made my eyes water and yes I too had a brood of skunks.

I agree

:truce:

 

[MyBelle]

OT but many marriages end following the death of a child, even if the death was from disease, car accident, etc...they feel the other spouse is not grieving enough, or secretly blame them, etc...

Unfortunately, too many marriages also end after the birth of the child. According to reports, this couple tried for years to get pregnant. Dealing for years with infertility carries a lot of stress and emotion and after they do succeed, after the birth sometimes one parent is overprotective to an extreme. I do wonder if that is what happened in this case and hubby was trying to teach his wife a "lesson" and it got out of hand.

JMO

 

[Tricia]

Tricia, I think it's clear he was in there for at least 4 hours, and maybe 6, after he passed away.

I can't find any resource that says there would be any smell - at all - in that time. But the resources don't account for baking hot cars.

It's hard to know.

Thank you JeannaT. Maybe someone from The Body Farm in Tennesse would know more.

There has got to be some idea as to whether there would be a smell or not in this situation.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think "everyone" would investigate an odor before driving off, it if weren't horrific.

I don't think anyone at this crime scene vomited except dear little Cooper. To me, that means the smell wasn't horrific. When people experience shock and a horrific smell, they often vomit.

So. To the bolded part, I'd say no. If he had planned ahead of time to kill his child and was on the way to make his dramatic appearance, after having successfully killed his baby, I don't think a little smell that didn't cause him to vomit would cause him to derail his dastardly plan and yank his car into a mall parking lot and rant and rave. That doesn't seem plausible to me.

I respect everyone's opinion also, and try to respond respectfully.

IMO it's not "an odor"

It's the unmistakable stench of death. His car reeked.

There is a link in the media thread.


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[gngr~snap]

That part bothered me also Clu....plus he is/was a coach or referee or something like that in his spare time...so he was used to be out in the elements....our south is hot.....nothing further to say.

You are right and we have had seemingly healthy high schoolers drop dead on the field at practice. In fact they practice from 6-8am and late in the evening now.
He knew that. imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

No. I don't believe there is at this point. I think it was too quick.

What would an appropriate amount of time in your opinion and what other investigative measures do you feel they should be doing in the mean time, that you don't believe they are actively doing right now?




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[Threeplus1]

Well there might be a good reason to have researched it. It will be interesting to know if anyone else knew of this incident and how long he was left in the car.

I believe the article means the actual incident where Cooper died when they wrote "earlier this month". That's the way I interpreted it anyway. If it had happened before and that was known, MSM would be all over it IMO.

 

[Karmady]

Thank you JeannaT. Maybe someone from The Body Farm in Tennesse would know more.

There has got to be some idea as to whether there would be a smell or not in this situation.

two people who've post about it in the past few hours are Swampmama and CClark (?). Have a look at those. They're very informative.

 

[JLSChook]

We need to find out exactly how long sweet little Cooper was in that hot car after he passed away.

If it can be proven that the smell would be unmistakable then that would do it for me as well.

Here is Randy Travis' video again regarding car smell and Internet Searches

"Smelled to high heavens" and "It reeked"

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/clip/10303559/child-death-investigation

These quotes came from LE that were obviously on the scene. I'm pretty confident that they know what 'death' smells like.

 

[MyBelle]

I miss him with all of heart. Would I bring him back? No. To bring him back into this broken world would be selfish - Mom.

IMHO - they no longer wanted him in this world. How could any mother say this about their child shortly after his death. Did she care so little for Cooper that she didn't want him back? I am a mother of a wonderful boy -- and although he's older now, he is my ONE-derful, my life, and who I care about most in this world (second to my DH). I don't understand. Is it grief? Is she protecting him? Did she want Cooper dead.

And then this woman goes on to say "if we have more children, he will be a great father". Why would you want to bring more children into this broken world.

That statement just breaks my heart.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zrHQZub50

3:50 minute mark.

Mel

I think her use of the term "broken world" might be a clue to her true state of mind. She may be saying these things as a show of support to her husband so that he will confess. She may not mean them.

JMO

 

[raeann]

At what church? Since they were married in a Church of Christ church in Tuscaloosa and they had Cooper's funeral at that same church, leads me to believe that they are Church of Christ believers. Unless things have changed, they have no music in the Church of Christ. IOW, they don't believe in having music in church. Does anyone have a link that says what church they attended. Not that it matters, but I would just like to know because I haven't seen it posted anywhere.

This info is inaccurate. The Church of Christ denomination DOES use music in their services. SOME of them do not use musical instruments, but MANY do use them. It depends on the particular church. A quick google search will show many references to explain this issue.

 

[Melanie]

Now we can confirm, via HLN, that the drivers door window was up. With that stench, he didn't even roll down the window. Odd.

 

[Karmady]

Here's CClark's post. Swampmama's is further back at 151

JMO on "the smell" since it has come up again.
There would be no decomp smell after 7 hours. Skin would be gray/blue especially in legs and lower abdomen. The body would be in intermediate stages of rigor. Gases and fluids would be released when someone picked the toddler up, and WOULD be somewhat overwhelming after "CPR" was attempted. The toddler would have been in the beginning stages of "bloat" meaning that skin is still intact and trying to contain the building volume of gas and liquid from inside he body. So, the smell would have been more hydrogen sulfide and methane, and not so much "death" or decay.

The gases and fluid would look like vomit, and smell putrid after he body was disturbed and jostled, but not necessarily before. If the body temp was lower than the air temp (likely) and the AC was turned on, the body would "sweat" - its just thermodynamics.

The car would definitely smell worse AFTER the body was jostled that before. If gases (and especially liquids) were released while the toddler was being extracted from the car seat, and would be VERY noticeable. Even more noticeable if one cop told another "come smell this". That's just human nature.

again, IMO - there would be no smell associated with death at noon

Source - 30+ years in a hospital environment including morgue/death investigation activity. This included being on duty when a mother in denial brought he deceased baby to the ER because he would "not eat and kept spitting up and had really bad diarrhea"

 

[Karmady]

I think her use of the term "broken world" might be a clue to her true state of mind. She may be saying these things as a show of support to her husband so that he will confess. She may not mean them.

JMO

I think she thinks the world is broken because of what's happened to her husband. jmo

 

[MissJ]

JMO but an appropriate investigation is not about time. Its about evidence.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't know. If the smell was HORRIBLE - that's one thing. I'm very curious to hear what others said about the odor at the scene - I'm sure the car was taken to forensics and gone over. If I open the car up and a FOUL odor whooshes out at me, I would search it before getting in.



If I got in and the car smelled funky, and as I drove more it smelled funkier, I think I'd first imagine some awful thing was in the atmosphere. I'd turn the AC to "recirc" and maybe roll down a window to see if the smell was coming from outside.



I guess the basis of this is that I don't believe a baby would smell all THAT foul after such a short period. A cop saying it "stunk to high heaven" might indicate he could detect an odor he knew - human decomposition - in that car. It may not turn out that the smell was so awful as the media says.



Coroners wouldn't be able to do their jobs if little babies like that stunk to high heaven after 4 hours, IMHO.

A few years ago, I had a neighbor that went to one of those car auctions....and came back with what he thought was a screaming deal...

Btw, all sales are final at those things...and never by a car with a "salvage title"

He gets 5 miles down the road...and the smell gets so bad, even after he rolled down the windows, he was physically sick.
he only checked out under the hood during the time he was allowed to walk around and look over the cars available.

After doing some research, he discovered someone killed himself in the car and had been in it all day. Never was able to get the smell out...




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[Judicious1]

I believe the article means the actual incident where Cooper died when they wrote "earlier this month". That's the way I interpreted it anyway. If it had happened before and that was known, MSM would be all over it IMO.

Oh gotcha! The way it was written it seemed as if he had forgotten him before or purposely left him another time. Earlier in the month seemed like more than a week ago but you are probably right. Other media outlets would have jumped on this if it wasn't the first time. Unless that's the "proof " this was intentional that we will hear about Thursday.