GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #1

[IBR]

Congratulations kiwijayne

Congrats from me as well. All the best for a wonderful future. :loveyou:

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

As far as I recall we've not heard any further about the strand of hair found in the blood. I've no doubts at all it would have been tested for colouring/dye.

On day 2 of trial it was mentioned Allison went to hairdresser as she felt her hair was too red. The hair found in boot was blonde.

June 23, 2012

An examination of Baden-Clay's car, leased just eight weeks earlier, found blood in the rear boot section and a blonde hair, the police claim in their opposition to bail. The hair is still undergoing examination, the court documents say. The blood came back as belonging to Allison, the court was told.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/police-file-on-baden-clay/story-fn6ck45n-1226406004247
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Trial day 2....

3.00pm: The 11th witness is Elizabeth Scully, a rental area coordinator who worked at Century 21 Westside

She said Ms Baden-Clay planned to go to the hairdresser because her hair was ``too red’’.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226950152264
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3.15pm: The 13th witness in the trial is Monique Waymouth who worked at the Kenmore Saloon of Epic Hair Designs.

She said Allison Baden-Clay came in for a hair colour treatment on April 19, 2012.

She said she told her she wanted it to be more ``blended’’.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226950152264

oh wow! thank you Marlywings! Maybe my little theory hasn't been blown away completely just yet - maybe. If the strand of hair was blonde, it seems very possible it could be one of the foiled bits (as opposed to one of the red bits from the colour the week prior). If there is a test that can tell whether or not a strand of hair has been very recently bleached, then it might tell us whether the hair that was attached to the blood was from the 19th or prior to the 12th/14th. Waiting with baited breath for the forensics again now!

 

[Straitfan]

Kind of get tired of depression talk, first I'm not sure I believe it but there are many levels of depression which one is capable of functioning just fine. Most women who know of their husbands affair would experience some depression, right? That said, thinking she could have been strong enough to move on from him given her strong family ties, not sure but wishing she had I guess

 

[Mountain Misst]

Congrats KJ - :bling:

:cake: Shall we start the icing yet?

 

[IBR]

oh wow! thank you Marlywings! Maybe my little theory hasn't been blown away completely just yet - maybe. If the strand of hair was blonde, it seems very possible it could be one of the foiled bits (as opposed to one of the red bits from the colour the week prior). If there is a test that can tell whether or not a strand of hair has been very recently bleached, then it might tell us whether the hair that was attached to the blood was from the 19th or prior to the 12th/14th. Waiting with baited breath for the forensics again now!

I can only second this! :tyou:

 

[marlywings]

Wow. That is really good thinking. Maybe it showed up as next door because it was in the sewerage pipes under the ground.

Way back in April,2012, in general discussion threads either 2 or 3, we were all discussing where the phone could be. I recall suggesting it may have been tossed onto the roof guttering of the house. A local member told us the area was on septic & the phone may have been tossed into the septic tank. He called that into Crimestoppers that night.

Personally, I think the phone was dumped somewhere in that area behind the house & someone was asked to go retrieve it....OR police did find it & they're keeping it a secret...lol.

They did conduct extensive searches of that whole area where the phone came up on find my friends....150 metre area behind the house.

Text copied from Constable Kellie Thompson's statement....

28. A short time later, Search Coordinator Senior Constable Trevor SIMS attended 395 Brookfield Road, Brookfield and I had a conversation with him about where I observed the point on the find my friend's application on the Defendant's mobile phone. SIMS advised that a search of 3 housing blocks from 61 Boscombe Road Brookfield.

33. It would have been just before dark that the defendant advised me that Allison BADEN-CLAY'S find my friends application details for the IPhone Application were..........................

34. Later that evening, I printed a map of the location of where I saw the Blue do from the application of find my friends on the defendant's phone and we attended 61 Boscombe Road Brookfield, where a search was conducted. During this search I recall having the assistance of a helicopter that was equipped with a heat light. Whilst doing the search we all separated around the property and Inspector Dal'Osto would ensure each person was quiet and all torch lights were off and would call Allison BADEN_CLAY'S mobile to assist the helicopter attempting to locate her phone.

35. On the 21st day of April 2012, at 11.35am, DSC MCLEOD and I attended an address in 18 Oldfield Street, Brookfield and spoke with the defendant. Whilst at this address I spoke with the defendant and again attempted to us his mobile phone to use the IPhone application find my friends in attempt to locate Allison BADEN-CLAY'S mobile phone however that search was unsuccessful

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

 

[alioop]

Can I ask a question?

If say a witness is found to be lying while on the stand what happens? I'm not sure how it works here. Could it jeopardise the trial and get them charged with perjury?

They can be charged with perjury, usually after the trial but it won't jeopardise the trial. The trial goes on. I am sure though in reality very few people that lie under oath get charged.

Aliloop can you tell me with regard to defending someone accused of murder is it true that they say "don't tell me if you are guilty or innocent". Sorry my thoughts are a bit muddled but I've heard defence lawyers say this to their clients? So, I assume, the defence lawyer will be able to say with conviction my client did not do this crime??

Yes this is what I remember from criminal law that we were taught. If the client does admit to the crime, the lawyer can still defend them BUT they can only challenge the prosecutions evidence, they cannot put forward alternative theories like suicide or Joe Bloggs committed the crime not my client.

My thoughts are also that it is fairly feasible that GBC might have offered to water plants and vacuum a friends house which he was selling/leasing, I guess. Would it have been vacant and if so, why would vacuuming be required? If it was tenanted, wouldn't the tenants be required to vacuum?

All a bit strange - but the part I have most difficulty with is the timing. If NBC deemed the whole situation so urgent that he had to rush over to GBCs so early and they got police involved so early - why was it then suddenly so important that he vacuum a house that didn't need to be ready until the next day? Seems weird that this would suddenly become important when it wasn't really urgent.

I think this can be looked at in a few ways. GBC didn't have anything to do with Allisons disappearance so thought she would turn up anytime so he was continuing with his plans for the day. Or he knew what happened to her because he was responsible but didn't either want to or didn't want to be seen as changing his plans for the day. I think selling Rob's house was very important for him financially that nothing was going to hinder getting it ready for sale.
However I think him pressing the so called panic button with the police and his family so very early indicates he didn't think she would turn up.

Would the defence need to provide an alternate story for the blood eg saying Allison injured herself a fortnight before she died, cut herself while loading groceries into the boot eg - or are they likely to remain silent on the point I wonder?

No they don't need to produce an alternate theory and I bet they don't.

 

[marlywings]

My thoughts are also that it is fairly feasible that GBC might have offered to water plants and vacuum a friends house which he was selling/leasing, I guess. Would it have been vacant and if so, why would vacuuming be required? If it was tenanted, wouldn't the tenants be required to vacuum?

All a bit strange - but the part I have most difficulty with is the timing. If NBC deemed the whole situation so urgent that he had to rush over to GBCs so early and they got police involved so early - why was it then suddenly so important that he vacuum a house that didn't need to be ready until the next day? Seems weird that this would suddenly become important when it wasn't really urgent.

My thoughts on the vacuum/bag...

Plant matter from the carport area was found in Allison's hair & on her jumper.

I presume forensics would have tested the contents of that vacuum cleaner bag because unless Allison had been completely wrapped in something then that plant matter would have also transferred to the back of the Captiva.

In which case, if that plant matter was found in the vacuum bag then GBC or someone has a whole lot of splaining to do!!

 

[kiwijayne]

They can be charged with perjury, usually after the trial but it won't jeopardise the trial. The trial goes on. I am sure though in reality very few people that lie under oath get charged.

If it is something really shocking it could end in appeal from the convicted?

 

[Fuskier]

There my hope for some luck in regards to the strand goes... :-(

No need to lose hope IMO. It was Allison's hair caught in her blood found in the back of a newly acquired Car which appeared to have been cleaned and boxes of children's toys placed on top to distract. Good solid Police investigation explored beyond the decoy boxes of toys and uncovered Allison's blood stain and hair in the back driver's side of the car. This evidence needs to be included in the Jury's deliberations IMO.

 

[marlywings]

Forensic info about testing hair....

Hair analysis can indicate whether the source is human or animal, and also whether the source is a member of a particular race.� It can determine if the hair has been dyed, cut in a certain way or pulled out, and where on the body it was located.� In some cases, evidence of poisoning shows up in the hair.� The hair shaft with a follicle can also offer genetic determinations, such as blood type or DNA, and since the external layer of the shaft resists decomposition, it's the kind of evidence that has real staying power.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/trace/5.html

A hair examination is usually used to determine if the item is A hair.

From a human or another animal. From certain body areas.
Characteristic of a certain racial group.
Characteristic of a particular growth phase.
Damaged.
Diseased.
Associated with other trace evidence.
Chemically altered, such as dyed or bleached.
Suitable for microscopical comparison.
Suitable for DNA analysis.
Similar to a known hair sample from a particular person.

http://www.swgmat.org/Forensic Human Hair Examination Guidelines.pdf0__5N.pdf

 

[alioop]

If it is something really shocking it could end in appeal from the convicted?

Yes, it technically could be a ground for appeal if the lie was prejudicial to the accused. Say someone gave evidence and said I saw GBC throw Allison over the bridge but that was proven to be a lie, then that would be very prejudicial obviously. Whether that lie by itself would result in a conviction being quashed and retrial ordered would be up to the appeal judge. The judge would examine who that witness was and what amount of weight the jury likely put on their evidence and what the prosecution, defence and judge said to the jury about this witness. They may for eg have said, we don't think this person is credible but we had to present the evidence for fairness reasons and can't pretend it didn't exist.

 

[they'll get you]

Thanks Minerva & Possum for this link. Does anyone know (or is there any way we can tell) when these photos were taken (ie. date and time?). I can't seem to find anything but am perhaps not looking in the right place.

The photos were done after the crime scene was declared because I noticed all the window frames had been dusted for prints on the outside.

Also in the bedroom there is a big striped fibreglass style bag large enough to a person to fit into. Just a thought.

 

[alioop]

The photos were done after the crime scene because I noticed all the window frames had been dusted for prints on the outside.

Also in the bedroom there is a big striped fibreglass style bag large enough to a person to fit into. Just a thought.

I thought the external window frames looked mouldy but you could be right.

 

[DunnoZo]

damn, Marly, you're good!

 

[they'll get you]

Thank you! Hopefully they did tests on the hair. IF it's found that the hair was freshly dyed and/or IF they can prove that the blood stain wasn't older than 24 hours and IF they didn't find evidence of anyone else but ABC or GBC driving the car recently - wouldn't that be proof enough that, at the very least, GBC has interfered with ABC's body?

The Holden Captiva was about one month old. I feel that's why the children were asked about their mum ever being hurt and they answered with only a twisted ankle. NO open wound involved with a twist.

 

[they'll get you]

Well, it probably wouldn't prove that GBC interfered with ABC's body, but it would prove that ABC was bleeding in that area of the car at some point after she visited the hairdressers on the evening of the 19th. It would be pretty condemning circumstantial evidence imo.
But, if it was found that the hair was not recently dyed (or that the blood stain was older), the opposite would be true.

Edit: I recall the hairdresser saying she would do foils though, in which case, only part of her hair was dyed, which would then mean the opposite would not necessarily be true, just more likely. I'm also not sure whether tests would even be able to tell the difference between hair that was coloured that day or four or five days prior either.

I can't find it but I somehow remember Allison had reddish hair colour to cover some grey with blond foil highlights. Allison had natural light brown hair and was young, I doubt she'd have a lot of grey.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Forensic info about testing hair....

Hair analysis can indicate whether the source is human or animal, and also whether the source is a member of a particular race.� It can determine if the hair has been dyed, cut in a certain way or pulled out, and where on the body it was located.� In some cases, evidence of poisoning shows up in the hair.� The hair shaft with a follicle can also offer genetic determinations, such as blood type or DNA, and since the external layer of the shaft resists decomposition, it's the kind of evidence that has real staying power.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/trace/5.html

A hair examination is usually used to determine if the item is A hair.

From a human or another animal. From certain body areas.
Characteristic of a certain racial group.
Characteristic of a particular growth phase.
Damaged.
Diseased.
Associated with other trace evidence.
Chemically altered, such as dyed or bleached.
Suitable for microscopical comparison.
Suitable for DNA analysis.
Similar to a known hair sample from a particular person.

http://www.swgmat.org/Forensic Human Hair Examination Guidelines.pdf0__5N.pdf

Thanks again Marlywings! So we may well find out whether the hair was post hairdressing appt on 19th or not. Although, it has just occurred to me that I have been making an assumption that the hair in the blood was from her head, but it may not be a head hair I suppose. Could be just a blonde arm or leg hair too I suppose. It will be very interesting to see what comes of this during the trial. Unless anyone has info that I have missed about whether it was a head hair or not?

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

I can't find it but I somehow remember Allison had reddish hair colour to cover some grey with blond foil highlights. Allison had natural light brown hair and was young, I doubt she'd have a lot of grey.

I found it - It's in Monique Waymouth's statement TGY. On the 12th ABC's hair was retouched to cover the grey. Apparently the grey regrowth was "quite big" estimated to be between 8-9 weeks. On the 14th, ABC had a semi permanent colour all over her hair. On the 19th, she had a few blonde foils put in her hair.

 

[they'll get you]

Wow. That is really good thinking. Maybe it showed up as next door because it was in the sewerage pipes under the ground.

Allison's phone

If someone wants to hijack your car you throw the keys in the opposite direction where you plan to run so they go for the keys and not you.
Could there have been an issue with Allison's phone, maybe she kept a diary or rang/text TM and she threw it over the fence and ran towards the front gate. The phone remained in the neighbours at 61 but was found later on. I hope the police searched that area with a metal detector, it was only 50 metres away! Just a thought.