GBC Trial General Discussion Thread #1

[Howie]

Sorry if anyone one else has offered this explanation for the suitcases found on Allison & Gerard's bed....I'm wondering if one of them was packing to leave (the marriage)? I'm wondering if this was the catalyst for the final escalation on that terrible night of the 19th. It could have happened either way. Scenario 1: Gerard says that he's had enough & is leaving Allison for Toni. Allison breaks down and begs him not to leave, perhaps even physically holding on to him to stop him from packing his things/leaving, and the argument progresses from there. Or Scenario 2: Allison tells Gerard that she is leaving him & he flies into a rage, knowing that he can't afford a divorce, etc. Either way, it ends in a physical altercation & poor Allison is no match for Gerard physically. Due to the Police arriving so early the next morning, Gerard didn't have time to put away the suitcases. This is just an idea and, of course, it's all purely hypothetical!

 

[Howie]

Or was packing for his annual trip to Tallebudgera?

But wasn't the whole house declared a crime scene on Day 1 (20th April)? No one would have been allowed to touch anything until every item in the house had been searched thoroughly. I'm not sure when it was stated that GBC was allowed to return in order to retrieve personal belongings.

 

[IBR]

Firstly, thank you to everyone who has put his thoughts in here, reported from the trial, tweeted, collected data and links etc. You're all doing an amazing job!

As a fairly new member, I haven't been reading anything on WS about this case before than towards the end of day 1 of the trail. So, I had to do a lot of reading to try to catch up, I still didn't read earlier threads, yet. Therefore, my thoughts might have been mentioned somewhere previously. Apologies if that's the case.

I'm wondering whether it's possible to date the blood stain in the boot of "Sparky"? I.e. would it be possible to determine whether that blood stain was fairly fresh or older than 24 hours?
And Allisons's hair that was found in the car - where exactly was it found? In the boot? Maybe next to the blood stain or even in it? Wouldn't it be possible to forensically test the hair whether it was freshly dyed with the particular dye that her hairdresser used the day before? There would have been fresh pigments on/in the hair if the strand of hair was from the night of her disappearance.
Then, in regard to the plant matter that was found in her hair. I assume it should be possible not only to determine that the plant species grow in the backyard of Allison's house whereas most of them don't occur at Kholo creek, but also to genetically test whether the leaves come from particular trees in the backyard and from which trees exactly. A bit like a genetic fingerprint of the plant matter. This might help with the reconstruction of what happened that night.
All this might still not prove that GBC was the one responsible for ABC's death, but it would most likely pull the strings a fair bit closer... JMO

 

[kailee]

when GBC returned to the house to collect some things for the girls, he took things in laundry baskets. I wonder if he had the option to use the suitcases on the bed, or if they were part of the investigation?

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1099711/3D-tour-Baden-Clay-family-home.html

THANK YOU

Thanks Minerva & Possum for this link. Does anyone know (or is there any way we can tell) when these photos were taken (ie. date and time?). I can't seem to find anything but am perhaps not looking in the right place.

 

[Amee]

Thanks Minerva & Possum for this link. Does anyone know (or is there any way we can tell) when these photos were taken (ie. date and time?). I can't seem to find anything but am perhaps not looking in the right place.

The photographs were taken by Queensland police officers on Operation Kilo Ring at the house four days after she was reported missing on April 20, 2012

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-days-Allison-disappeared.html#ixzz34ZZDeAq9


May 04, 2012 12:00AM
Mrs Walker and the Dickies were at the Baden-Clays' Brookfield home yesterday helping to tidy up after the police forensic investigation so Mr Baden-Clay and the three girls could return home.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/grief-for-lost-daughter/story-e6freoof-1226346302840

 

[Amee]

But wasn't the whole house declared a crime scene on Day 1 (20th April)? No one would have been allowed to touch anything until every item in the house had been searched thoroughly. I'm not sure when it was stated that GBC was allowed to return in order to retrieve personal belongings.

April 27, 2012
A TIRED and drawn Gerard Baden-Clay yesterday returned to the Brisbane home he shared with wife Allison for the first time since she vanished a week ago.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/hus...den-clay-goes-on/story-e6frg12c-1226340284576

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

The photographs were taken by Queensland police officers on Operation Kilo Ring at the house four days after she was reported missing on April 20, 2012

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-days-Allison-disappeared.html#ixzz34ZZDeAq9


Mrs Walker and the Dickies were at the Baden-Clays' Brookfield home yesterday helping to tidy up after the police forensic investigation so Mr Baden-Clay and the three girls could return home.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/grief-for-lost-daughter/story-e6freoof-1226346302840

Thankyou !

 

[Howie]

NBC stated in his evidence that it was about 4-5 years into the marriage, so likely to have been in the early 2000s. So a very long time from her time of death in 2012.

And this timeframe might coincide with the birth of their eldest daughter. Gerard & Allison were married for 15 years. Eldest daughter was 10 years old when poor Allison died. Just doing the maths here...15 minus 10 equals 5. Sounds like post natal depression to me.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Firstly, thank you to everyone who has put his thoughts in here, reported from the trial, tweeted, collected data and links etc. You're all doing an amazing job!

As a fairly new member, I haven't been reading anything on WS about this case before than towards the end of day 1 of the trail. So, I had to do a lot of reading to try to catch up, I still didn't read earlier threads, yet. Therefore, my thoughts might have been mentioned somewhere previously. Apologies if that's the case.

I'm wondering whether it's possible to date the blood stain in the boot of "Sparky"? I.e. would it be possible to determine whether that blood stain was fairly fresh or older than 24 hours?
And Allisons's hair that was found in the car - where exactly was it found? In the boot? Maybe next to the blood stain or even in it? Wouldn't it be possible to forensically test the hair whether it was freshly dyed with the particular dye that her hairdresser used the day before? There would have been fresh pigments on/in the hair if the strand of hair was from the night of her disappearance.
JMO

It seems that the hair was found attached to the blood stain.
I don't think we know yet whether the hair was tested to see if it was freshly dyed (I am very interested to know this too actually because I think it would clear up whether the blood was from that night or from a previous injury, but I haven't been able to find any info about it as yet).

Mr Fuller said when police inspected Ms Baden-Clay’s car, they found items in the back which once removed, showed an extra row of seats.
He said a stain in the back of the car tested a presumptive positive for blood on the back, driver’s side of the car.
“It was approximately 23cm above the floor height and showed signs of being a transfer stain,” Mr Fuller said.
He said a hair attached to the blood stain was later confirmed with DNA as belonging to Ms Baden-Clay.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226948779375

 

[alioop]

There is a clock on the wall in one of the girls bedrooms and it looks like it's around 2pm. The Dickies didn't clean the house until early May so well after these photos were taken.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

There is a clock on the wall in one of the girls bedrooms and it looks like it's around 2pm. The Dickies didn't clean the house until early May so well after these photos were taken.

Ooh yes! I wonder if this is the clock that 'doesn't show the right time' though, or if it gives us an accurate indication of the time that the photos were taken?

 

[alioop]

Ooh yes! I wonder if this is the clock that 'doesn't show the right time' though, or if it gives us an accurate indication of the time that the photos were taken?

Good, point, I can't see any other clocks. Nothing on oven or microwave with time either. It's hard to tell time of day from outside as it is overcast so can't see where the sun is.

 

[IBR]

It seems that the hair was found attached to the blood stain.
I don't think we know yet whether the hair was tested to see if it was freshly dyed (I am very interested to know this too actually because I think it would clear up whether the blood was from that night or from a previous injury, but I haven't been able to find any info about it as yet).

Mr Fuller said when police inspected Ms Baden-Clay’s car, they found items in the back which once removed, showed an extra row of seats.
He said a stain in the back of the car tested a presumptive positive for blood on the back, driver’s side of the car.
“It was approximately 23cm above the floor height and showed signs of being a transfer stain,” Mr Fuller said.
He said a hair attached to the blood stain was later confirmed with DNA as belonging to Ms Baden-Clay.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...his-wife-allison/story-fnihsrf2-1226948779375

Thank you! Hopefully they did tests on the hair. IF it's found that the hair was freshly dyed and/or IF they can prove that the blood stain wasn't older than 24 hours and IF they didn't find evidence of anyone else but ABC or GBC driving the car recently - wouldn't that be proof enough that, at the very least, GBC has interfered with ABC's body?

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Thank you! Hopefully they did tests on the hair. IF it's found that the hair was freshly dyed and/or IF they can prove that the blood stain wasn't older than 24 hours and IF they didn't find evidence of anyone else but ABC or GBC driving the car recently - wouldn't that be proof enough that, at the very least, GBC has interfered with ABC's body?

Well, it probably wouldn't prove that GBC interfered with ABC's body, but it would prove that ABC was bleeding in that area of the car at some point after she visited the hairdressers on the evening of the 19th. It would be pretty condemning circumstantial evidence imo.
But, if it was found that the hair was not recently dyed (or that the blood stain was older), the opposite would be true.

Edit: I recall the hairdresser saying she would do foils though, in which case, only part of her hair was dyed, which would then mean the opposite would not necessarily be true, just more likely. I'm also not sure whether tests would even be able to tell the difference between hair that was coloured that day or four or five days prior either.

 

[louisepiglet]

In an earlier thread it was confirmed that Scraps the dog lives at 61 Boscombe Road Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #32
Is the area connected to sewage or are they septic/grey water systems? If they are connected to septic, perhaps the phone was disposed of in Scraps yard that night?

However, if they are connected to sewage - I've always had a feeling that while GeRd had his famous 's***, shower, and shave' he disposed of Allison's phone down the toilet or drain. He attempted to find the phone using the app before police arrived, is that right?

His calm demeanour when 'Find my phone' actually located it could have been an attempt to hide his amazement and concern that it was still functioning! Anyone else would be out the door in a flash to find that phone (and their wife).

Did police do any excavation at 61 boscombe road?

Wow. That is really good thinking. Maybe it showed up as next door because it was in the sewerage pipes under the ground.

 

[Daisyinthedesert]

April 27, 2012
A TIRED and drawn Gerard Baden-Clay yesterday returned to the Brisbane home he shared with wife Allison for the first time since she vanished a week ago.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/hus...den-clay-goes-on/story-e6frg12c-1226340284576

Murder, mistresses, lies, "business as usual", yes all very tiring stuff!

 

[kiwijayne]

Wow. That is really good thinking. Maybe it showed up as next door because it was in the sewerage pipes under the ground.

I think that more than likely they would be a on septic tank arrangement so by now the phone could be anywhere.

 

[DrWatson]

Thank you! Hopefully they did tests on the hair. IF it's found that the hair was freshly dyed and/or IF they can prove that the blood stain wasn't older than 24 hours and IF they didn't find evidence of anyone else but ABC or GBC driving the car recently - wouldn't that be proof enough that, at the very least, GBC has interfered with ABC's body?

Unfortunately, blood stains can't be "aged" once they're more than a few hours old (I'd guess 3-4 hours, once it's all clotted). I have a niece who is a Scene of Crime Forensic Scientist with New Scotland Yard in London, and I asked her that question when we were discussing this on these threads ages ago, so that information comes from her. In that first 3-4 hours, the clotting of the blood goes through stages that can be determined under a microscope. But once that has completed, and the blood is a stain rather than a "puddle", it is no longer possible to say how long it has been there.

I'm not a blood spatter expert, but if the Metropolitan Police in London can't do it, I would doubt that we can do it here. Which is a pity - it's one question that will always remain unanswered: was the blood stain from the night before, or had it been there for 3 or 4 weeks from a cut finger carrying the shopping, for example.

 

[redlightthroughpaper]

Unfortunately, blood stains can't be "aged" once they're more than a few hours old (I'd guess3-4 hours, once it's all clotted). I have a niece who is a Scene of Crime Forensic Scientist with New Scotland Yard in London, and I asked her that question when we were discussing this on these threads ages ago, so that information comes from her. In that first 3-4 hours, the clotting of the blood goes through stages that can be determined under a microscope. But once that has completed, and the blood is a stain rather than a "puddle", it is no longer possible to say how long it has been there.

I'm not a blood spatter expert, but if the Metropolitan Police in London can't do it, I would doubt that we can do it here. Which is a pity - it's one question that will always remain unanswered: was the blood stain from the night before, or had it been there for 3 or 4 weeks from a cut finger carrying the shopping, for example.

So, if the particular piece of hair found attached to the blood stain didn't happen to have a fresh foil in it, (or, like blood, if there is no way to tell whether a foil is that fresh or not), then I guess what we already know is all there is to know about the blood stain.