General Discussion and Theories #3

[Woodland]

For those who think LE can get a search warrant based on curiosity or suspicion, you might want to read R v Kelly ... even though the marijuana was found in his residence, his conviction was overturned on appeal because the ITO that resulted in the warrant being granted was based on suspicion with no initial reasonable grounds to believe that evidence would be found therein.

http://www.gnb.ca/cour/03COA1/Decisions/2010/December2010/Kelly-DrapeauCJNB-judgment-December6.pdf

The above is just one of many examples.

We have no knowledge what specific factual (or believed to be factual) information led to the first TPS ground search with GPR. We have no knowledge of what "new information" resulted in the more recent barn search. We have no knowledge of what was contained in any of the relevant ITOs or what specific authorizations/limitations were contained in the warrants that were granted.

The barrels ultimately are deemed to have no evidentiary value. IMO, continued speculation that LE overlooked or dismissed the barrels serves no useful purpose other than attempts to besmirch LE.

With all due respect SB I don't know if the barrels have value or not but I do hope something does in fact come from testing them rather than nothing.

Besmirching LE? Do you mean TPS? I'm asking because I don't see posters using the same broad brush to besmirch LE as a whole. TPS yes, all LE - not seeing that.

To let TPS off the hook so to speak for their initial failures, and in my opinion TPS did fail the people the people they are sworn to serve, is letting them continue to operate in the same less than stellar manner.

I don't arrive at my criticism of TPS easily - shooting a young man on an empty streetcar? He had a knife but was no threat to anyone at the time he was shot, 8 out of 9 bullets hitting him. None of those bullets could have gone through a window and hit a bystander? The resulting murder charge is warranted, however doubt punishment or justice will be served. Tasering an 80 year-old woman with a knife? She died. Warranted?

The G20? Oops we (TPS) didn't know we couldn't arrest everyone within x metres of a fence TPS erected? Ooops we forgot to mention that to the public.

A missing woman TPS deems to be in the sex trade is dismissed and DM (need I mention same suspect in the murder of TB?) is not questioned even though he was in contact with her hours/days before she went missing. DM goes on to kill TB and we should not ask if TB would be alive if not for a different attitude by this particular LE agency? Imo TPS chose to learn nothing from the Picton inquiry.

Speaking of which, Vancouver LE and the RCMP chose to ignore 50+ women missing from the same Vancouver area as nothing more than coincidence - they're heroes with no lessons to learn? Could TPS have maybe picked up on a few mistakes here where LB is concerned?

These are fairly recent mistakes being repeated where they need not be.

Imo, if citizens are not watching and trying to keep their respective LE agency in check, those citizens can consider themselves sol in the long run.

If criticism is directed at a particular LE agency, then gripes with that criticism should be equally directed. There are no bad apples in LE period? No poor leadership in LE period? No bad decisions made at any time? No lessons to be learned by LE anywhere?

A broad brush is harmful and an opinion is not fact - on either side of the debate.

Jmo.

 

[swedie]

...JMO EXCELLENT post by swede an Silly Billy( above #638 & 637)...IMO you both are precisely correct ...I feel in saying we DO NOT KNOW the reason as to "WHY "..police went back to that barn with another search warrant granted ...all that was told ..was Police found NEW INFO that made them go back...IMO new info will naturally arise as this is an investigation in PROGRESS,,new forensic could be found from the LAb. ...video surveillance from cameras neighbor was mention...IMO so many NEW variables arise in an on going investigation shall constantly change the direction LE will take ...of course this is JMO again too....robynhood.

Exactly RH. The new information regarding the disappearance of LB.

Maybe there were reasons why DM had the Bobcat on the property. At one time it could have been used inside the barn to dig a cellar to stash/hide the barrels on chemical and keep them away from any heat source, if there was a possibility any of them could be flammable. If so, the cellar could have been covered over with boards and hay. Could it have been revealed by someone who may have helped to dig the cellar? I believe even if someone knew the barrels were full of chemicals, not knowing what kind, it could prove to be potentially hazardardous and should be investigated. LE knowing some murderers have been known to use chemicals to dispose of their victims; LE believed it was worthy of investigating. Maybe they believed via information they received LB may have been in the cellar or in a barrel with chemicals. Just a possible theory and MOO.

Toronto police said an investigation Monday at the Waterloo Region farm of Dellen Millard was related to the disappearance of Laura Babcock.

Police declined to provide any more details, other than to say that new information led to the latest search.

Knowing DM refused to talk to LE regarding TB, maybe they assume he wouldn't talk to them regarding LB or WM so they did not bother to approach him on either case OR evidence is strong enough they don't need to talk to him. I think the later is more accurate in MOO.

Millard's lawyer, Deepak Paradkar, said his client has not been interviewed recently about Babcock and he didn't know about the search warrant being executed. Millard's next court appearance is set for Thursday.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...tied-to-laura-babcock-disappearance-1.1699302

 

[Sillybilly]

A broad brush is harmful and an opinion is not fact - on either side of the debate.

Jmo.

<rsbm>

Woodland, my post was directed at the convo about the barrels and warrants, not the attitude of TPS towards LB's disappearance, or the attitude of LE in general as it relates to missing stws/escorts. I believe my post was clear when I referred to LE and barrels, that it relates to the case at hand, not LE in general (unless there are other cases where barrels have been suspected of being overlooked ).

Debate is productive when discussing KNOWN facts, but continued debate, based on totally speculative statements presented as fact that both HPS and TPS overlooked or dismissed or didn't see barrels, is unproductive and can only serve to besmirch LE involved in this investigation (HPS and TPS).

WADR, I firmly believe my opinion is FACT ... we simply DO NOT KNOW that barrels were ever overlooked or dismissed because we have zero knowledge of what was/wasn't authorized by warrants and yet it continues to be stated that the barrels were overlooked. That's what i'm having issues with.

If someone can provide a link to a fact that barrels were somehow overlooked or dismissed, I think many of us would appreciate it, and eat crow.

hth

 

[Sillybilly]

Speaking of which, Vancouver LE and the RCMP chose to ignore 50+ women missing from the same Vancouver area as nothing more than coincidence - they're heroes with no lessons to learn? Could TPS have maybe picked up on a few mistakes here where LB is concerned?

<rsbm>

Yes, LE in general is well advised to learn from the mistakes of other PDs as it relates to how they treat cases involving high risk victims. Although Edmonton hasn't had a lot of success in solving the cases there, at least Project KARE was formed as a direct result of lessons learned from VPD and RCMP in BC. KARE made connections in some of their cases, KARE street teams were established to collect voluntary DNA and fingerprint samples from the stws, etc.

While there may be concerns in other Toronto area cases, Laura's is the only one we're aware of whereas BC involved 60+ and Edmonton 80+. While mistakes may have been made by TPS initially, hopefully it won't take the same volume of cases for them to learn their lesson

 

[robynhood]

I would like to pose a question...Please...Today is Oct 10 ...preliminary hearing is Oct. 22....IMO am I correct in assuming that all the crowns case should be now ...TOLD to the defense of DM and MS?....thks as I know someone will have a productive answer....robynhood....

 

[Archangel7]

I would like to pose a question...Please...Today is Oct 10 ...preliminary hearing is Oct. 22....IMO am I correct in assuming that all the crowns case should be now ...TOLD to the defense of DM and MS?....thks as I know someone will have a productive answer....robynhood....

After charges are laid, the ACCUSED is entitled to disclosure of all evidence and simply has to ask anytime he wishes.

Evidence can be found and admitted in court at any time, even during the court proceedings, so literally, there isn't a drop dead date that is a mandatory "disclosure date/time" as some have inferred here.

I can't imagine there is ANY evidence in captivity that hasn't been "disclosed" to DP.

However IMO, I seriously doubt DP has all the evidence.

 

[Arnie M]

So if there is a preliminary hearing say on Oct 22 , will any information be made public , or will there be a complete news blackout ?

 

[swedie]

Yes Swedie, you may have been away during that period. They only discovered them on Monday. I think this is why we shouldnt be too shocked to hear about the handy dandy incorporation of Major Case Management. Had it been in place earlier, it may not have taken four months to notice dozens of barrels in a barn.

Do we know it took four months to notice the barrels? I disagree. HPS were the first to do a search and just because we have heard as to whether they discovered the barrels doesn't mean they weren't discovered in that first search or that search warrant was asked for or given. I have not seen an article yet which specifically states, farmland and barn. They all read farmland, property, property around the barn, wooded area but no barn.

Maybe the barrels where not actually hidden. I haven't seen reported by LE or MSM to confirm that speculation have you? TPS found the barrels the first day of their search so they couldn't have been too hidden; time will tell...maybe. As I mentioned in another post way back, in one video taken from a helicopter or plane, you can see inside the barn and see barrels sitting just inside the door. Maybe that's where they were all along.

This information could be very concerning. Was TB actually found on DM's property or was it property belonging to someone else say his neighbour? Could this have been why LE would not immediately release as to WHERE TB's body was found? Was the neighbour checking up on what was going on on HIS property? OR maybe there was assumption on someone's part as to where their property line was? MAYBE DM knew it was the neighbours property and thought that would be enough to separate him from crime by leaving it on the neighbour's property? Just speculating and MOO.

Hamilton investigators have been camped out at two Waterloo-area properties: the wooded area where Bosma&#8217;s remains were found burned beyond recognition, and farmland owned by Millard on which a portable incinerator was found.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2013/05/18/forensic-investigation-into-tim-bosma-death-wrapped-up

 

[robynhood]

After charges are laid, the ACCUSED is entitled to disclosure of all evidence and simply has to ask anytime he wishes.

Evidence can be found and admitted in court at any time, even during the court proceedings, so literally, there isn't a drop dead date that is a mandatory "disclosure date/time" as some have inferred here.

I can't imagine there is ANY evidence in captivity that hasn't been "disclosed" to DP.

However IMO, I seriously doubt DP has all the evidence.

....Thanks so much for your post Archangel ...it helps clarify.....So are we correct in assuming that Both defense lawyers SHOULD Know why their clients are CHARGED with 1st degree murder?.....

IMO everyone would like to know if this evidence will be discussed at the preliminary hearing.....AND IF ANY news will be told to us....I am sure WE WOULD all like to hear the Defenses Story...?????......It HAS been REPORTED by DM lawyer that he has his SIDE of a story and " we should not RUSH to Judgement......IMO I am waiting to hear it????...I would THINK WE all are waiting......robynhood....it is my opinion we shall not hear much due to the PUBLICATION BAN...I also feel that DM will be doing very little talking...if EVER...Yes just my opinion...robynhood....thanks again to anyone who can shed some light on this whole case!...it shall be much appreciated by all..JMO again...:banghead:

 

[Sillybilly]

So if there is a preliminary hearing say on Oct 22 , will any information be made public , or will there be a complete news blackout ?

The publication ban on evidence and witnesses will exist until actual trial. As for a complete blackout wrt the preliminary, media will be able to report on such fluffy things as "accused stared at floor" "accused wore a blah, blah". When actual trial starts, media will be able to report on evidence as it is presented in court but won't be able to report on anything that transpires without the jury present.

Then we have the Rafferty and McClintic situation in the Tori Stafford case; they were tried separately and McClintic actually pled Guilty, but it was not able to be reported because Rafferty had yet to go to trial. I'm wondering how this might play out in the cases of DM and MS. At this point it seems that both accused are making appearances on the same dates while being tried separately. I'm guessing if MS was to plead Guilty, we may face the same situation as RiffRafferty and McClintic.

 

[Sillybilly]

:waitasec: Come to think of it, where does the term "co-defendant" come from? Do we have cases in Canada where two people accused in the same crime ever have only one trial?

 

[robynhood]

thks Sb ...It is exactly as I was thinking...that nothing much will be said on Oct,.22..@ the preliminary hearing...JMO ..I do not think M.S will be pleading Guilty...Yep I think we are in for a long long SILENCE..Trial was said to happen MAYBE late in 2014...in the Toronto Star....SIGH...robynhood..

 

[Snoofo]

:waitasec: Come to think of it, where does the term "co-defendant" come from? Do we have cases in Canada where two people accused in the same crime ever have only one trial?

Maybe you are just used to the term heard in civil litigation matters.

 

[Archangel7]

:waitasec: Come to think of it, where does the term "co-defendant" come from? Do we have cases in Canada where two people accused in the same crime ever have only one trial?

One combined trial would tend to prevent throwing your co murderer under the bus and prevent plea bargains and we couldn't have that.

 

[Snoofo]

Do we know it took four months to notice the barrels? I disagree. HPS were the first to do a search and just because we have heard as to whether they discovered the barrels doesn't mean they weren't discovered in that first search or that search warrant was asked for or given. I have not seen an article yet which specifically states, farmland and barn. They all read farmland, property, property around the barn, wooded area but no barn.

Maybe the barrels where not actually hidden. I haven't seen reported by LE or MSM to confirm that speculation have you? TPS found the barrels the first day of their search so they couldn't have been too hidden; time will tell...maybe. As I mentioned in another post way back, in one video taken from a helicopter or plane, you can see inside the barn and see barrels sitting just inside the door. Maybe that's where they were all along.

This information could be very concerning. Was TB actually found on DM's property or was it property belonging to someone else say his neighbour? Could this have been why LE would not immediately release as to WHERE TB's body was found? Was the neighbour checking up on what was going on on HIS property? OR maybe there was assumption on someone's part as to where their property line was? MAYBE DM knew it was the neighbours property and thought that would be enough to separate him from crime by leaving it on the neighbour's property? Just speculating and MOO.

Hamilton investigators have been camped out at two Waterloo-area properties: the wooded area where Bosma’s remains were found burned beyond recognition, and farmland owned by Millard on which a portable incinerator was found.

http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2013/05/18/forensic-investigation-into-tim-bosma-death-wrapped-up

This confuses me. It took TPS 4 months to notice the barrels and you were the one that posted the link that confirmed this recently. TPS saw the barrels for the first time on the Monday (first day) of the September search. I agree that HPS may have seen them months ago, which is why MCM would have come in handy earlier. I didnt suggest they were hidden.

Your post says could this be why LE did not immediately release WHERE TB's remains were found - I wonder now did they EVER release that information (I am thinking no but my memory could be failing me)?

 

[Alethea Dice]

This confuses me. It took TPS 4 months to notice the barrels and you were the one that posted the link that confirmed this recently. TPS saw the barrels for the first time on the Monday (first day) of the September search. I agree that HPS may have seen them months ago, which is why MCM would have come in handy earlier. I didnt suggest they were hidden.

Your post says could this be why LE did not immediately release WHERE TB's remains were found - I wonder now did they EVER release that information (I am thinking no but my memory could be failing me)?

According to this, they confirmed it a week later. That would explain why all the MSM reports started saying he was found at the farm instead of just in the Waterloo region.

Police confirmed for the first time on Tuesday that his remains were found at the sprawling Waterloo farm purchased by Millard in May 2011.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story/3246889-tim-bosma-homicide-missing-woman-s-parents-buoyed-at-renewed-police-i/

 

[swedie]

This confuses me. It took TPS 4 months to notice the barrels and you were the one that posted the link that confirmed this recently. TPS saw the barrels for the first time on the Monday (first day) of the September search. I agree that HPS may have seen them months ago, which is why MCM would have come in handy earlier. I didnt suggest they were hidden.

Your post says could this be why LE did not immediately release WHERE TB's remains were found - I wonder now did they EVER release that information (I am thinking no but my memory could be failing me)?

To me that goes to show then the barrels were not hidden <modsnip>. It just goes to prove IMHO TPS had not been in the barn prior to the September search (no warrant to search it).

And HPS may have only been allowed to make a walk through looking for the obvious; TB, possibly DM's Yukon or any other vehicle HPS believe were related to this murder. Again we do not know if a warrant was given for the barn to either PS prior to the September search therefore we will have to await that information. HTH and MOO.

 

[swedie]

Search and Seizure

There are certain exceptions to this search warrant rule which routinely allow police to conduct a wider-spanning search than allowed by the search warrant, however. In general, police can search beyond the scope of the search warrant in order to ensure their own safety as well as the safety of others. In addition, police can search widely to stop the destruction of evidence, look for evidence beyond the scope of the original search warrant because their initial search revealed that there may be additional evidence in other locations on the property, or to find more evidence based upon what is in plain view.

Some examples may clarify these points. If the police have obtained a warrant to search the garage of a house, they may walk through the home in order to get to the garage to conduct their search. If, on the way to the garage to look for drugs, the police hear toilets flushing upstairs, the police may broaden their search in order to check the bathrooms for illegal drugs that are likely being flushed down the drain. Or, a search of a dining room may be expanded to the kitchen if police hear a gun being loaded by the refrigerator.

Lastly, and it should be emphasized, the police can seize evidence that is in plain view if the police are there for a legitimate reason. For example, if, on their way to search the garage, the police see four bags of marijuana sitting on the coffee table, the police can seize the drugs.

HTH

- See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...ch-and-seizure-faqs.html#sthash.KGi04bwV.dpuf

 

[Snoofo]

To me that goes to show then the barrels were not hidden <modsnip>. It just goes to prove IMHO TPS had not been in the barn prior to the September search (no warrant to search it).

And HPS may have only been allowed to make a walk through looking for the obvious; TB, possibly DM's Yukon or any other vehicle HPS believe were related to this murder. Again we do not know if a warrant was given for the barn to either PS prior to the September search therefore we will have to await that information. HTH and MOO.

No matter when they found them, we do not know whether they were front and centre, hidden, partially hidden, etc. We can all speculate as we do and I do not believe Jubalee stated it as fact as another fellow poster had suggested a couple days ago. Jubalee merely stated an opinion or a guess that he or she is entitled to.

The whole first TPS search is and has always been seen as questionable. Was it just a photo opp and was a warrant to search the barn even sought? Was it sought and denied? This is not an effort to besmirch LE asI have no reason to want to do so. They are valid questions IMO however I know we will likely never know the answers.

 

[Arnie M]

The Barrels are not guilty