General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

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Regarding the layout of the bathroom, again, roughly translated from The Beeld:

All four shots Paralympic hero Oscar Pistorius allegedly fired at Reeva Steenkamp was designed which she sat on the toilet.

All four shots hit her.

The toilet is on the left side of the en suite bathroom. The shots were fired through the door of the bathroom.

This means that Pistorius had shot in an oblique direction to could hit her, a source told Beeld said

The source denied allegations that Steenkamp with a cricket bat assaulted.

According to him, the bullet Steenkamp hit in the head caused the wound to her head and not an assault with a bat.

http://translate.google.ca/translat...a=X&ei=tJMhUcqWLsi3ywGWpYG4Ag&ved=0CDIQ7gEwAA
 
Kenny Oldwage, Pistorius's attorney, told Beeld that the family had already started investigating team, but would not elaborate on who it is.

He and Adv. Barry Roux SC will be assisted by another a top pathologist Dr. Reggie Perumal, and other experts.

Stuart Higgins, a British spin doctor for including British Airways, swimmer Mark Foster and the Manchester United soccer team, will handle media relations. He is a oudredakteur of the British Sun.

http://translate.google.ca/translat...a=X&ei=tJMhUcqWLsi3ywGWpYG4Ag&ved=0CDIQ7gEwAA
 
Sounds like lovers quarrel regarding Reeva's ex is possible motive, but, I can't quite make out the translation. By SMS, I think they mean texting or instant messaging. Sounds like Hougaard and Pistorius boxed against each other for fitness training?

Oscar will be strongly defending his actions, if this is anything to go by. wow.



Springbok rugby player Francois Hougaard was nowhere to be seen after rumors yesterday that his SMS the cause of the violent strife between Oscar Pistorius, a friend of him, and Reeva Steenkamp.

"Oscar is one of the mentally strongest people I know. He could have up to three times in a session vomiting and would continue to work hard to finish it. "

http://translate.google.ca/translat...a=X&ei=tJMhUcqWLsi3ywGWpYG4Ag&ved=0CDIQ7gEwAA
 
Regarding the bat. Must read article with side bar.

City Press can reveal that police are investigating different scenarios involving the bat – one of which is that her boyfriend, Olympic hero Oscar Pistorius, used it to viciously assault her.

The police are also investigating two more possibilities: that Steenkamp may have used the bat in self-defence, or that Pistorius used it to break down the toilet door behind which Steenkamp was hiding from him.

We can further reveal that police specifically requested that Pistorius’ blood be tested for drugs and steroids.
Steenkamp’s skull was “crushed” and police tests on the cricket bat and her body will reveal if the injuries were caused by blows to the back of her head.

“There was lots of blood on the bat. Forensic tests will show whose blood it was,” said a source with inside knowledge of the case.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/exclusive-the-case-against-oscar-2/
 
He apparently shot her with 4 bullets.

Is that not a sign of pre meditated murder and passionate killing?

Not the normal burglary type where you shoot to stop the intruder but are angry and want them dead no matter what and often seen in crimes of passion?

Im not sure what I believe in this situation yet because many of the sources are very sketchy IMO (DaillyMail); however, I wanted to address that in many firearm classes and circles it is taught that if you have an intruder, empty your clip or in the least, dont just shoot once. Not saying I believe this is the case in this situation, but it is not unheard of...

I just dont know what to believe because there are way too many different stories and again, the sources are not sources I would put much faith in...

Im still reading and waiting for more info...
 
Im not sure what I believe in this situation yet because many of the sources are very sketchy IMO (DaillyMail); however, I wanted to address that in many firearm classes and circles it is taught that if you have an intruder, empty your clip or in the least, dont just shoot once. Not saying I believe this is the case in this situation, but it is not unheard of...

I just dont know what to believe because there are way too many different stories and again, the sources are not sources I would put much faith in...

Im still reading and waiting for more info...

They do teach that in firearm classes but they also teach to always know what you are shooting at. This is the part I just don't see him getting around. She was in the bathroom and it appears he knew she was there. Just bizarre!
 
I don't understand the defence. Mistaken identity does not remove intent. Had it been a burglar, Oscar would surely still be up on murder charges (dolus eventualis indeterminatus).

Are you speaking for South Africa? Because where I live (and im armed), if someone intrudes into my house and I shoot them dead, Im wont be brought up on murder charges because of the "stand-your-ground" law.

http://jeffco.us/jeffco/sheriff_uploads/revised_statutes.htm
The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.
Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
 
They do teach that in firearm classes but they also teach to always know what you are shooting at. This is the part I just don't see him getting around. She was in the bathroom and it appears he knew she was there. Just bizarre!

Im in agreement with you...
 
The link has photos inside his house including the bathroom.
Banned steroids found inside the home:
.....

Steroids found at Blade Runner’s mansion

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...rius-house-after-he-shot-Reeva-Steenkamp.html


Officers who searched the 26-year-old’s home after lover Reeva was killed in the bathroom are said to have found steroids. Blood samples taken from Pistorius are being tested for the drugs.

A source close to the investigation said: “Steroid drugs were found at Pistorius’s home together with evidence of heavy drinking. That’s why police have specifically ordered that he be tested for steroids.”
 
TIMELINE

I am very curious about how they can spin this case using their successful British spin doctor to get Pistorius off this charge of premeditated murder.
My additions and speculations are in italics. Please feel free to add to this or edit it.

A chronology of the main events in the Oscar Pistorius Valentine’s Day murder has unfolded over the last couple of days:
(Note: these times are approximate)http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/oscar-pistorius-charged-with-murder-timeline-of-events.htm

Wednesday 13 February:

6pm (or 8.30pm?) Reeva arrives at Pistorius' home for a Valentine's Day Eve dinner. She has her overnight bag and iPad with her (plus mobile phone?) so was intending to stay the night.


Thursday 14 February:

?Midnight: Francois Hougard, rugby player, possibly sent an SMS to Reeva to wish her Happy Valentines Day. Pistorius hears SMS message coming in just after midnight so he asks Reeva to show it to him or invades her privacy to read it himself when she is in the bathroom earlier. Pistorius becomes jealous and paranoid about this and possibly accuses her of infidelity with Francois which she denies. Reeva could have told Pistorius that he was getting too possessive (there is evidence of this) and she and Francois were "just good friends". Francois may have even sent the message to make Pistorius jealous wanting to be the first man on Valentine's Day to message her. Reeva could have told Pistorius that if he continued to be so jealous, possessive and insecure that she would break off their relationship and leave him. The argument escalates to screaming as Pistorious threatens her with violence if she leaves him either that night or breaks off their relationship. He could have tried to prevent her leaving.

1am (CAT): Police are called by neighbours to Oscar Pistorius’s home in Silverwoods Estate, Pretoria after domestic disturbance. No one is hurt so the police go away.

Reeva decides to stay but is tired so puts on her nightie and they go to bed. Pistorius wants to make love to her but she refuses him as she is too tired. He is angry and cannot sleep. He becomes paranoid and feels that the relationship is now over and plans his revenge. He thinks, "She is my woman and no other man can have her." He is also probably jealous of the TV program about to be aired and might have told her he does not approve of her being in that show as other men might fancy her. He is jealous of the attention it might bring her plus he was due to go to Australia for sporting events so can he trust her while he is away?

He then wakes her up and makes more threats of violence so she tells him she is going home but needs to go to the bathroom first before getting dressed. He tells her not to leave him so he grabs his gun beside his bed and takes a shot at her which hits her pelvis. She is terrified so locks the bathroom door thinking he cannot get at her there. So he fires three more shots through the bathroom door which hit her finger (as she is protecting her face), head and arm. He wonders if she is dead as there is silence so he grabs the cricket bat and belts the door down with it then leaves it in the pool of blood on the bathroom floor. He wonders what to do next so calls his friend and father to come over to help him before he calls paramedics or the police as he wants to get his story straight first.

Pistorius pretends Reeva is still alive so gives her CPR then picks her up and carries her down the stairs so he looks like a romantic hero who has accidentally killed his girlfriend thinking she was an intruder.

But how can they spin that he thought she was an intruder? She would not have turned up in her nightie, she was killed in her nightie, there was evidence they had been in bed together, how did she get past security? could she have climbed through a window? is her DNA on the keys to his house? did she have her own set of keys? how much light was in the bedroom? police knew she was with him at 1am, so will he lie and say she left after police left and then she came back about 3am in her nightie? Wouldn't security know her movements? There is CCTV to prove that she arrived between 6 and 8.30pm the night before and no CCTV to show her leaving at any time.


3.55am: Neighbours called police to return to Pistorius’ home after they heard the gunshots by making a 999 call
•They find a woman, identified as the runner's girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp, shot dead
•Reeva had been shot several times in the head and arm
•The runner is arrested by police
•Pistorius reportedly tells police that he mistook Reeva for a burglar
•Reports emerge that Reeva may have been planning a Valentine's Day surprise for Oscar that went horribly wrong
•It's revealed that the Olympian sleeps with a revolver by his bed
•Police confirm Pistorius has been charged with murder and will appear in court
•They say they have been called to his home before over 'domestic incidents' and are "very surprised" by the suggestion that Pistorius mistook Steenkamp for a burglar.

South African news reports said that Pistorius shot Steenkamp four times through a bathroom door, citing a neighbor who spoke with security guards.

Under South African law, a person who fatally shoots an intruder has to prove he or she had a reasonable fear that the intruder posed a real threat to his or her life. Reeva did not hurt him as he had no injuries. What would that threat be? How could an intruder enter his house with all the security there?

9am: Police announce that they have arrested a 26-year-old in connection with the shooting. Oscar Pistorius is questioned by police.

12.30pm: It is announced that a 26-year-old man has been charged with the murder of Reeva Steenkamp. It is not confirmed that this 26-year-old is Pistorius, however, it is confirmed that only Steenkamp and Pistorius were in the house at the time of the shooting.

2.30pm: M-Net cable TV channel pull the Paralympian’s Oscar-themed adverts off air.

3pm: It is announced that Pistorius will appear in court on Friday 15th February charged with the murder of Reeva Steenkamp.

6pm: Pistorius is held overnight at Pretoria Police Station.

Friday 15 February:

7am : The Beeld reports that Reeva Steenkamp was shot through a bathroom door and that early on Thursday morning the police had been called to the paralympians home earlier due to a domestic disturbance.

9am: Pistorius arrives at court to face the charge of murdering his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

11.30am: Two and a half hours after Pistorius arrives at court, Judge Desmond Nair opens the session. Pistorius breaks down in court.

11.50am: The judge decides that no live recordings of the hearings can take place.

12pm: The defence applies for the bail hearing to be delayed until Tuesday 19 February.

12.05pm: Pistorius is charged with premeditated murder.

12.10pm: Judge agree to the postponement of the bail hearing until Tuesday 19 February.

12.15pm: Pistorius leaves court to be held at Brooklyn Police Station.

2.45pm: Pistorius’ agent has released a statement on the paralympians behalf saying that he disputes the murder charge against him “in the strongest possible terms.”
 
Although he was not in the Olympics he surely must have been tested? Yet he got away with it for years.
 
also following this case...good op ed from the Telegraph and how the case breaks down from the Indy

Battle lines drawn in Oscar Pistorius court fight

The case for the defence...

The first hours following the news of Ms Steenkamp’s death were dominated by speculation that she had been shot in a Valentine’s Day surprise gone wrong. Police have insisted that they were not the source for this suggestion but friends and family who spoke to the athlete in the early hours of Thursday morning continue to insist that is what happened. The runner’s uncle Arnold Pistorius reiterated that the track star had not shot Ms Steenkamp deliberately: “We have no doubt there is no substance to the allegation and that the state’s own case, including its own forensic evidence, strongly refutes any possibility of a premeditated murder or indeed any murder at all.”

...and the prosecution

Footage from security cameras at the gated community of Silver Woods has been handed to police. Sources claim it shows the 29-year-old model arriving at Mr Pistorius’s house mid-way through Wednesday evening. Neighbours said there was shouting during the evening. Shots were heard about 3am. Police and paramedics who arrived at the scene reportedly found Ms Steenkamp dead in her nightie on the second floor of the house, suggesting she arrived earlier and stayed the night.

Any other evidence?

Unconfirmed reports suggested that a bloodied cricket bat may have been used in the attack. However, police sources suggested that most items in the bedroom had been spattered with blood. Authorities in South Africa have brought in the same splatter expert who dealt with the murder of right-wing white separatist leader Eugène Terre’blanche in 2010.

Diminished responsibility?

In the hours after the killing, Pistorius was taken to hospital for blood tests. If traces of narcotics are found it remains a possibility that his lawyers may argue diminished responsibility. If successful that would reduce the life sentence that would be a minimum were he convicted of premeditated murder.


Now that we know that steroids were found in his home and there was evidence of heavy drinking that night, I think the lawyers will use diminished responsibility to lessen the sentence. Recently, there have been suggestions that due to the inebriated and drugged state he was in, he will claim that he forgot that Reeva was in bed with him and assumed she was an intruder when she got up to go to the toilet.

In the English judicial system, diminished responsibility is the terminology used in reference to a potential defense for a criminal act.
The diminished capacity defense may result from the state of an individual affected with a mental disability, (to some degree). The impairment may be retardation, mental illness or a disease or injury that would affect the individual's ability to reason. External causes, such as the influence of drug or alcohol use, are not typically a legal defense for one's own actions.
In a case of diminished responsibility, the degree to which the accused is held liable for their own actions is in direct correlation to their state of mind or ability to reason. The mental defect does not completely excuse the defendant's conduct, (such as in an insanity defense), but rather may result in reduced charges or leniency in sentencing.

The presiding judge may use his or her own discretion in these cases to determine the degree to which an individual with a mental defect should be held accountable for a criminal act.

Diminished responsibility and intoxication

3.67 Our reformulation of s 23A provides that self-induced intoxication is to be excluded as a ground for pleading diminished responsibility. That provision is an exception to our general approach in relation to diminished responsibility, which is not to exclude any specific condition automatically as a ground for the defence, in order to allow proper consideration of the merits of each individual case. However, the approach taken in relation to self-induced intoxication is consistent with existing legislative policy on the admissibility of evidence of intoxication in relation to criminal offences. That policy is said to be based on the view that it is unacceptable to excuse otherwise criminal conduct because the accused is suffering from self-induced intoxication, and that people who voluntarily take the risk of becoming intoxicated should be held responsible for their actions.113

The existing law on intoxication and diminished responsibility

3.68 The courts have consistently refused to regard self-induced intoxication on its own as a condition coming within the defence of diminished responsibility. It has been excluded on the basis that it does not cause damage or destruction of brain cells, but temporarily affects the way in which they function, and is therefore not an “injury” under s 23A of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).114 Alternatively, it has been held that there is no evidence of an abnormality of mind arising from self-induced intoxication so as to satisfy the first element of the defence.115

3.69 While the temporary effects of intoxication have been deemed insufficient to amount to diminished responsibility, it is possible under existing law to establish the defence where the accused is intoxicated but also suffers from a pre-existing condition, such as substantial brain damage arising from past substance abuse. Therefore, there is be no defence of diminished responsibility in this situation unless it can be shown that the abnormality of mind exists even when the accused is sober.116 In the case of the brain damaged accused, for example, it must be shown that it is the brain damage, and not simply the temporary state of intoxication, which has caused the accused’s abnormality of mind, and subsequent impairment of mental responsibility.117 Similarly, the English Court of Appeal has held that where a person suffers from a pre-existing condition such as an intellectual disability, and kills while intoxicated, that person’s intoxicated state must be ignored in order to establish that diminished responsibility results solely from the pre-existing condition.118

3.70 The law is less clear in the case of a person who is addicted to alcohol or drugs and becomes intoxicated as a result of this addiction. The English Court of Appeal held in R v Tandy119 that cravings from substance addiction can render involuntary the use of alcohol and its consequential impairment of judgment so as to fall within the defence of diminished responsibility. However, it remains questionable whether this view of the defence would be followed in New South Wales.120

3.71 In August 1996, amendments to the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) were introduced121 which provide that evidence of self-induced intoxication cannot be taken into account in determining whether an accused had the requisite intention to commit the offence in question, unless that offence is an offence of specific intent.122 Examples of offences of specific intent are listed in the table annexed to s 428B, and include murder. Section 428E of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW) provides:

If the evidence of intoxication at the time of the relevant conduct results in a person being acquitted of murder:

(a) in the case of intoxication that was self-induced - evidence of that intoxication cannot be taken into account in determining whether the person had the requisite mens rea for manslaughter, or
(b) in the case of intoxication that was not self-induced - evidence of that intoxication may be taken into account in determining whether the person had the requisite mens rea for manslaughter.

3.72 “Intoxication” is defined in s 428A as “intoxication because of the influence of alcohol, a drug or any other substance”, and “self-induced intoxication” is defined in the same section as any intoxication except intoxication that:

(a) is involuntary, or
(b) results from fraud, sudden or extraordinary emergency, accident, reasonable mistake, duress or force, or

(c) results from the administration of a drug for which a prescription is required in accordance with the prescription of a medical practitioner or dentist, or of a drug for which no prescription is required to be administered for the purpose, and in accordance with the dosage level recommended, in the manufacturer’s instructions.

3.73 These amendments relating to intoxication do not appear to cover the defence of diminished responsibility. They relate to the question of the accused’s “mens rea” or intention in committing the offence, rather than the impact of intoxication on his or her “mental responsibility” under the test for diminished responsibility as provided for in s 23A of the Crimes Act 1900 (NSW).

So IMO he will not get a lesser sentence if he blames his self-induced intoxication of steroids and alcohol and IMO he was not at risk from violence of the intruder. I am also wondering whether he will fall from grace when it is exposed that he might have been a drug cheat. People also murder to stop a secret getting out so did Reeva find out that he was a drug cheat?
 
There have been no confirmed reports in SA media about steriods found. I heard on the radio this morning that its been confirmed a cricket bat was indeed found. Im going to wait for tomorrows bail hearing before I start believing anything...a few solid details/facts should emerge.

Those pictures of his bathroom makes me wonder hth he shot her while on the loo..looks like the bath is actually directly in front of the door with the toilet to the far left (if standing in the doorway) unless he shot at the door at an angle...which would then mean he has every intent to kill her. Maybe she was sitting on the edge of the bath looking towards the door rather than on the loo as reported???
 
OK, Reeva was shot in 4 places: The head, the hand (or finger), the hip and the arm.

There have been comments that she was shot in the hip (or pelvis) and fled to the bathroom. There have also been comments that she was holding her head and sustained the hand and head injury simultaneously. Also that three shots were fired, then a lull or 10 minutes and another three shots.

Any theories here?

Official: Oscar Pistorius' girlfriend shot 4 times through bathroom door

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/18/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-case/

Pretoria, South Africa (CNN) -- Model Reeva Steenkamp was shot four times through the bathroom door at the home of Olympian Oscar Pistorius, a South African official familiar with the case told CNN on Monday.
 
Well I sure hope he doesn't expect me to believe that after the first shot she didn't scream or yell out in pain or surprise. (knowing it's a woman, he'd have to know.)

Then to shoot 3 more times without identifying? I suppose I'm not buying the I thought it was an intruder theory.

JMO
 
I also heard that the cricket bat is irrelevant and the entire bedroom had blood splatter all over. Also, that her skull was not "bashed" in from the cricket bat but from actually being shot. I would imagine a bullet to the skull could resemble it being smashed in???

Hmmm Patticake...the only theory I have is that I find it strange that the neighbours didnt call security after the inital 3 shots were heard..a 10minute lull? I doubt it...the place is a secure facility and security would have been called immediately after the first 3 shots were fired. Strangely, he managed to call a friend and his father before police/ambulance/security arrived so I guess anything is possible.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707
 
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