General Discussion Thread #1 -Bail Hearing

[Chewy]

Ah, thank you for clearing that up!

However, to move from the balcony to the bathroom, he must go past the bed, I think? I still don't understand shouting at Reeva - nor, for that matter, at the intruder. Given that at this point he presumably has no idea whether the intruder is armed, or alone, and also that since the bedroom door is locked and he was on the balcony, so the intruder must have just arrived through the bathroom window, would it not make more sense to arm yourself, wake Reeva, stay quiet and phone police?

I also still personally find it impossible to believe that he didn't know she wasn't in the bed. Either prior to hearing the noise, or upon hearing the noise, and having to walk past the bed to go check it out, he didn't check whether his girlfriend was there? Or incidentally notice she wasn't? Also, if she WAS in there merely using the toilet, then as I said, there are only a few noises he could've heard - a flush, or a door closing. Given that late night trips to the bathroom are fairly common, I honestly feel like if he was someone who upon hearing this sort of noise at night, was so terrified by it so as to not realise it was his girlfriend, and this is the result, then I'm surprised this didn't happen in one of his prior relationships, kwim?

This is all just completely IMO and I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I can help make one thing make sense. That is his "placement" of Reva on the bed. This is part of why I do believe his story.

I'm hearing impaired so I pay attention to how people hear things and he may well have "thought' he heard her by the bed and so in his mind he basically creates the scene. This is especially true if he's telling the truth and the room was black.

He hears noise and the darkness and the confusion makes him "place her on the bed." He was probably whispering to her the whole time without even realizing it as he made his way to the bathroom.

Some of the way people repeat the details in this case are very annoying. If I'm not mistaken he didn't say he heard the toilet flushing. Yet many people are haranguing that fact as if it's carved in stone.

Think, if he had heard the toilet flush he would have thought it was Reva, he didn't, he heard strange noises coming from the bathroom not the toilet stall.

He gets up and goes into the bathroom and sees the window open and thinks the robber has climbed in the window and that "by chance" he had woken up and caught him and now the burglar is hiding in the toilet stall.

If you think about the way things went down, waking suddenly in the middle of the night, as if something is wrong, then following through on that feeling and manifesting the entire scenario in his mind.

This could well have happened.

What I would be curious about is if Reva had her earbuds in on her phone. When you block your hearing with these devices you are less aware of the noise you are making around you.

If she was wearing the earbuds, to me, it would account for the confusion, why she didn't answer him, and why the noises she was making seemed odd.

Normally at night people tend to be quieter out of habit, if she had hear hearing compromised she may not have realized the level of noise she was generating.

 

[Carol70]

On another topic, I recall the affidavit stated part of his panic result from the realization that the bathroom window was open. Looking at the floor plan, it appears you would have to be in the bathroom to see the window was open. So I assume he's claiming he remembered having left it open and therefore brought his gun, rather than going to the bathroom, seeing the open window, doubling back to the bedroom for his gun, then going back to the bathroom, but I'm not sure.

All of the above is just my opinion.

From his statement:

** I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/ were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door. It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.**

I think it's safe to assume that he was standing in the doorway of the bathroom when he noticed the window was open, hears a noise in the loo, and shoots. He has already shouted that there is an intruder so for all we know, Reeva thinks the is an intruder too.

 

[Dryad]

Yes I was wondering about Reeva's clothes. Initial reports said she was in her nightdress. Now it seems she was wearing shorts and vest. Was it outdoor shorts and vest. Why would she be wearing outdoor clothes at 3 in the morning?
Or was it a pyjamas set?

I think the word "vest" was used as another word for tank top of possibly a camisole top she was wearing with a pair of comfortable shorts to sleep in. He did say she was doing yoga exercises on the floor before going to bed so she probably just slept in what she was wearing.

 

[Lola]

I have. ALso I am not sure where photos of the bathroom come from but I'm not the one publishing them..if the toilet was in the place other photos show then the officers statement makes no sense. Its all very fishy to me.

SweetT, the point i was making about leaving at 3am in the morning is actually specific to what i understand about safety issues in SA. if it is a dangerous as we hear, what woman who is well aware of this would leave by herself at 3am? if she was leaving or planning to leave, did she call someone?

 

[Carol70]

SweetT, the point i was making about leaving at 3am in the morning is actually specific to what i understand about safety issues in SA. if it is a dangerous as we hear, what woman who is well aware of this would leave by herself at 3am? if she was leaving or planning to leave, did she call someone?

Good point...she most certainly could have....even just to say " leaving now, see you in 10".

 

[Patticake]

Yes I was wondering about Reeva's clothes. Initial reports said she was in her nightdress. Now it seems she was wearing shorts and vest. Was it outdoor shorts and vest. Why would she be wearing outdoor clothes at 3 in the morning?
Or was it a pyjamas set?

She might have had an argument with him, dressed and planned to leave him. He may not have wanted her to leave.

I say this without knowing if she drove to his house in her car or took a cab Anyone know?

 

[Carol70]

Here is a article that's interesting to say the least:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...imates_much_of_south_african_lives_kelly.html

 

[Carol70]

Here is a article that's interesting to say the least:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...imates_much_of_south_african_lives_kelly.html

 

[Lola]

here's a clickable layout from the BBC -- Pistorius bedroom and bathroom

 

[fringles]

Some of the way people repeat the details in this case are very annoying. If I'm not mistaken he didn't say he heard the toilet flushing. Yet many people are haranguing that fact as if it's carved in stone.

Think, if he had heard the toilet flush he would have thought it was Reva, he didn't, he heard strange noises coming from the bathroom not the toilet stall.

What I would be curious about is if Reva had her earbuds in on her phone. When you block your hearing with these devices you are less aware of the noise you are making around you.

If she was wearing the earbuds, to me, it would account for the confusion, why she didn't answer him, and why the noises she was making seemed odd.

Normally at night people tend to be quieter out of habit, if she had hear hearing compromised she may not have realized the level of noise she was generating.

RSBM

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I believed he definitely heard a flush - I was merely speculating about what the noise he claims to have heard could've been, had Reeva merely been using the bathroom.

With the earbuds, I just wonder how likely it is that a person who has woken from sleeping to use the bathroom would bother to put on earphones while doing so? It's possible I guess, but it's not something I would imagine.

 

[ontariolynn]

I think the word "vest" was used as another word for tank top of possibly a camisole top she was wearing with a pair of comfortable shorts to sleep in. He did say she was doing yoga exercises on the floor before going to bed so she probably just slept in what she was wearing.

Also known as baby dolls, and the tops now look like vests my daughter wears them in the summer, they are little shorts with vest type tops.

 

[21merc7]

Here is a article that's interesting to say the least:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...imates_much_of_south_african_lives_kelly.html

I take it OP's home had no panic buttons to push when he heard a noise?

I would think someone barging in with a machine gun is safer than me waiting outside the bathroom with a pistol.

(I don't like the lockdown described, no matter how safe. I would have a panic attack on first go.)

 

[21merc7]

Sleeping vest:

 

[Carol70]

I take it OP's home had no panic buttons to push when he heard a noise?

I would think someone barging in with a machine gun is safer than me waiting outside the bathroom with a pistol.

(I don't like the lockdown described, no matter how safe. I would have a panic attack on first go.)

I'm not comfortable with the "rape door". It's called no such thing, in fact..I've never heard that in my life. It's a slam lock. ( a gate that automatically locks when slammed). As explained last night, it merely separates the bedrooms from the lounge/dining and is usually situated in the passage leading to the bedrooms.

 

[Carol70]

Oh and no, it doesn't seem like OP had panic buttons.

 

[Zinn]

From his statement:

** I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/ were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door. It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.**

I think it's safe to assume that he was standing in the doorway of the bathroom when he noticed the window was open, hears a noise in the loo, and shoots. He has already shouted that there is an intruder so for all we know, Reeva thinks the is an intruder too.

Thank you, Carol70.

So then it seems he is saying he was panicked about a sound in the bathroom, panicked enough to shout at Reeva to call police and to arm himself with a gun, even before he realized the bathroom window was open. That concerns me greatly. If someone is spending the night, it is a reasonable assumption that they will use the restroom during the night. Unless someone has a mental illness that causes them to be paranoid, or unless they have taken a substance that causes them to be paranoid, it does not make sense that they would jump to the conclusion of an intruder in the toilet when someone is spending the night and is locked in a small space with them (bedroom and bathroom). Especially given his assertion that he knew the bedroom door was locked. If he didn't know the window was open until after he went to the bathroom with a gun, it is one less reason for him to have assumed there was an intruder when he retrieved his gun, in my opinion.

Now, if the defense was arguing that he has mental illness or was high on some substance, I would see this somewhat differently, but they seem to be claiming he had a natural reaction to a reasonable assumption of an intruder, so I think it makes a difference whether he discovered the open window before or after he went to the bathroom with a loaded gun.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[Carol70]

Anyhow, I'm bushed. Tomorrow will hopefully be the last episode of this season 1 series....season 2 should start again towards the end of the year.

I predict OP will be home for dinner tomorrow night!!

 

[SyraKelly]

I would just like to ask this-If Oscar got up, went on the balcony to get the fan and then she got up-I am sure she would have seen him on the balcony and asked him what he was doing-he said I am getting the fan..he does not have his procs on-so I am sure she would have said,here let me get it for you -where would you like it..there is no way she would have not seen him or heard him on that balcony or even walk passed him to go to the bathroom..she was a very helpful girlfriend I would imagine.Am I missing something here?

BTW-Was the ladder leaning against the bathroom wall by the window?

 

[Chewy]

RSBM

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I believed he definitely heard a flush - I was merely speculating about what the noise he claims to have heard could've been, had Reeva merely been using the bathroom.

With the earbuds, I just wonder how likely it is that a person who has woken from sleeping to use the bathroom would bother to put on earphones while doing so? It's possible I guess, but it's not something I would imagine.

I sleep with earbuds in, I listen to music while I'm sleeping. (Also Quincy episodes on Netflicks)

She may have been wearing them while sleeping. This is total speculation but it would answer the question of why she didn't reply to him when he called out to her in the bathroom.

There's two things that don't make sense to me. If he was chasing her down in violence and the escalation was to the degree that she was in fear for her life, then why didn't she call anyone.

Also the areas in which she was shot. If she was leaning forward holding her phone listening to music, she may not have heard him and it would explain the bullet wounds.

 

[Dryad]

This is from a conversation on this topic from a friend of mine and I thought her personal experience living in SA was interesting because it's hard for some of us to understand that level of paranoia and fear.

"I have a hard time separating fact from fiction in the media, so I'm not sure which parts of the story are legit.

However I will tell you all that DS18 and I used to live in South Africa and unless you've lived there, you have no idea what a normal level of paranoia is for a homeowner there. Some homes for sale or rent advertise their "safe rooms" to lock yourself IN to in case of invasion, knowing that if someone breaks into your home you will probably die. Most home break-ins there are violent. They don't just steal your **** and leave. You will very likely be killed if someone enters your home to rob you. If you have a lot of money, relatively speaking, you are likely to be a target no matter how much security you have. Our apartment had personal alarms in every single room, not just one room or inside the front door but every room, which called outside security. We never used them, but knew people who did. So guns and paranoia are completely within the realm of normal for someone in his position. And we lived in an area that was considered far safer than the one he was living in.

The story about a crew leaving his garage door open - I mean in the US this might not be a big deal or even just a mild annoyance, but over there it's a different story - even with people sitting in the house, doesn't matter - it's beyond irresponsible and I would have been furious myself in that case, in that place. You just don't do that. It's a different set of realities. Not making it sound like anarchy or Escape from New York there - it's not - but security is on people's minds exponentially more than it is in other places for very good reason.

Now I still don't have any idea if the man is guilty or innocent, but I do know that the parts of the story that have him paranoid and sleeping with a gun under his bed, that have him scared to have an unbarred bathroom window, and that have him previously thinking his washing machine noise might be a violent home invasion are all totally reasonable.

The rest? I don't know. I don't know their history or anything about his personality, so I have no idea if the rest of his story holds water."