General Discussion Thread #2

[cityslick]

I may be confusing myself but I'm sure it was about bail... Was bought up by Roux when Botha was on the stand.

It was brought up by the defense that Botha told OP that he would make bail at first. He didn't deny it when asked by Roux.

 

[Carol70]

No where in his statement does he mention dropping the gun, and he clearly states backing out of the bathroom, eyes focused on the bathroom door, indicating he was approaching the bed with his back to it, He is still shouting at Reeva to call the police, she is not responding...it dawns on him...he goes back to the bathroom ( this is when I speculate he dropped the gun) loo door locked, no response from Reeva, back to bedroom, opens door, screams for help, puts legs on and breaks down door (shortened version)

My version of events

 

[otyikondo]

why should it be considered a bad thing to get legal representation, I have said it so many times but it bears repeating if I ever had to have dealings with the police no matter how insignificant the matter I would have a lawyer present,

I am glad he was smart enough to realise he needed a lawyer and he got one, good ones at that

I'm pretty much with you on this, except I'm trying to see this through the filter of those who are anyway confident "there's more to it than meets the eye", whereupon the thinking MIGHT be that having just "shot my beautiful girlfriend accidentally in the most incredible and utterly traumatising manner", our man would not be in any shape or form to make rational decisions like lawyering himself up, but would basically be a gibbering wreck, howling uncontrollably at the moon and banging his head against the front door until his temples bleed.

This above is of course just one way that a certain type of person would behave. Others might be much more lucid and rational and less theatrical and might "do the sensible thing". Or alternatively, OP WAS doing the gibbering wreck stuff and one of his pals was making all the smart calls.

But if you already feel Oscar's guilty of murder, then these initial moments after the fact look like one more bit of evidence - he "didn't react right".

If you see my point...

 

[Zinn]

As with all cases, I'm convinced there are those that will never believe what OP says or does, no matter what the real truth is. There is nothing OP can do that will convince those that think he murdered her intentionally (or maybe even not intentionally, just the the fact that he killed her period, accident or not).

Some will simple see that a young woman is dead, no matter the circumstance and that he will never be redeemed for it. Such is their opinion. It is a tragedy, no matter what.

I agree that some will believe he is guilty of purposely murdering Reeva regardless of supporting evidence to the contrary. I am also aware there are many people willing to believe OP's claims with no supporting evidence to back his claims, and perhaps even conflicting information. It goes both ways.

I will be willing to believe OP's statements if reliable corroborating evidence is presented. I haven't seen any yet, but I am open to it. I am already disturbed by the way Roux is phrasing things, often appearing to keep options open rather than stating what he believes to be fact. I know that's his job, but it plants seeds of doubt in my mind and gives me the impression he is not confident in the truth of his client's statements.

 

[otyikondo]

One other aspect of the case so far that seens odd is that per the reporting, when police arrived on scene, OP's lawyer was already there - either SAPS reaction time is very slow or his lawyer lives nearby. I think that if Australian detectives turned up at very recent crime scene and found a defence lawyer already there, he might be getting locked up too!

What do you think?

I think I'm seeing double!
I just read this on the Beeb site, except about the UK detectives. Was that you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21543851

 

[writer411]

IIRC, she was shot in the head, arm and hip. Arm and hip shots would not have been deadly.

Did he keep shooting until the shouting or other indications from her ceased, and then he could be sure she (or the "intruder") was dead?

Note that he did not empty the gun, as there would be more than 4 rounds therein.

Are the 4 shots further indication of willful murder? Shooting until he was certain she (or the "intruder") was dead?

well, i dont have a gun and have never shot anything, but when it comes to humans, repeated action usually indicates willfulness whether ur going after a roach with a slipper or spanking ur kid to make a point.

i would also like to add that between the home invaders and the elites, there seems to be a culture of impunity in south africa. anytime the killer can move the body where he pleases and is being coached by his lawyer before the cops get there! sheesh! i think having the flexibility to live above the law is the reason some ppl continue to remain in south africa even when they have the money to live anywhere in the world.

frankly, i see this guy getting off.

 

[joe jones]

I'm pretty much with you on this, except I'm trying to see this through the filter of those who are anyway confident "there's more to it than meets the eye", whereupon the thinking MIGHT be that having just "shot my beautiful girlfriend accidentally in the most incredible and utterly traumatising manner", our man would not be in any shape or form to make rational decisions like lawyering himself up, but would basically be a gibbering wreck, howling uncontrollably at the moon and banging his head against the front door until his temples bleed.

This above is of course just one way that a certain type of person would behave. Others might be much more lucid and rational and less theatrical and might "do the sensible thing". Or alternatively, OP WAS doing the gibbering wreck stuff and one of his pals was making all the smart calls.

But if you already feel Oscar's guilty of murder, then these initial moments after the fact look like one more bit of evidence - he "didn't react right".

If you see my point...

I have never understood the logic that just because you called a lawyer you must have done something wrong, and I have also never got the he has shifty eyes, or he looks evil, or he did not cry like I would expect him to kind of reactions people have to infer guilt

we never know how we would react/behave unless we walked in his shoes, from what I have seen of him he seems a broken man,

 

[shane13]

well, i dont have a gun and have never shot anything, but when it comes to humans, repeated action usually indicates willfulness whether ur going after a roach with a slipper or spanking ur kid to make a point.

i would also like to add that between the home invaders and the elites, there seems to be a culture of impunity in south africa. anytime the killer can move the body where he pleases and is being coached by his lawyer before the cops get there! sheesh! i think having the flexibility to live above the law is the reason some ppl continue to remain in south africa even when they have the money to live anywhere in the world.

frankly, i see this guy getting off.

Yes, I am sure you are right about the big picture.

But I was trying to show the relationship of 4 rounds fired and her wounds and just when he stopped without emptying the gun, as indication of him stopping only after he was certain she was dead.

 

[otyikondo]

I have never understood the logic that just because you called a lawyer you must have done something wrong, and I have also never got the he has shifty eyes, or he looks evil, or he did not cry like I would expect him to kind of reactions people have to infer guilt

we never know how we would react/behave unless we walked in his shoes, from what I have seen of him he seems a broken man,

I quite agree. I'm simply stating the way things are. There WILL always be those who say "he looks shifty to me", and a thousand times as MANY people who will say AFTER the fact "I always said he had a shifty look about him" (even though they never said a word... ) or "he was always an odd bird at school, too...".

"Seems a broken man"... I'd say he IS. Regardless of what happens in the next six months this is not going to end well for OP. Far from it. He's poisoned flesh now. Those who will petulantly yell he gets/got too short a sentence won't bother about that, though.

 

[Lola]

Oscar Pistorius 'wants to contact' family of Reeva Steenkamp

 

[Zinn]

I have never understood the logic that just because you called a lawyer you must have done something wrong, and I have also never got the he has shifty eyes, or he looks evil, or he did not cry like I would expect him to kind of reactions people have to infer guilt

we never know how we would react/behave unless we walked in his shoes, from what I have seen of him he seems a broken man,

BBM.

I don't know yet know how things transpired in this case, but generally speaking, if I hear someone called a lawyer (or anyone really) before calling for medical assistance, or if I see a lawyer was at a crime scene prior to the crime scene being processed, it raises red flags for me. As for legal representation, I think it's important to request it at the time of an arrest, but that's different from having a lawyer at the crime scene prior to investigators.

To be clear, I don't know exactly what happened here and in what order. The phone records have not been released, so we can't confirm who was called and in what order. IIRC, the brother and lawyer were present at the crime scene prior to investigators, but please correct me if that's wrong. And I think Botha was said to have arrived at 4:15, quite some time after the shooting, but I'm not certain.

All of the above is just my opinion.

 

[natsound]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/23/pistorius-wants-to-contact-steenkamp-family

Oscar Pistorius 'wants to contact' family of Reeva Steenkamp

QUOTE

It is not clear whether the Steenkamp family, who cremated their daughter last week, are ready for such a gesture. The late model's father, Barry Steenkamp, told South Africa's Beeld newspaper that Pistorius would have to "live with his conscience" if he was lying about how he had killed her.

The athlete would "suffer" alone if his claims that he mistook her for a burglar were false, he said. The warning came as what appeared to be Pistorius's first public comment on the case turned out to be the work of a hacker. "Thank-you to every person that has prayed for both families, Osca", said a message on his brother Carl's Twitter account. A spokeswoman for Pistorius said: "The tweet is not from Oscar or Carl. We can confirm that Carl's Twitter account has been hacked during this very tragic time. We are busy cancelling all the social media sites for both Oscar's brother and his sister."

The London Paralympic gold medallist, staying with his family at his uncle's house in the exclusive Pretoria suburb of Waterkloof, was visited by parole officers and a counsellor on Saturday. Under his bail conditions he cannot drink alcohol, return to his own home or leave the country and must report to a police station twice a week.

Karyn Maughan, a legal journalist at eNCA who has been following the case, said: "I strongly suspect his legal team will bring a challenge to the bail conditions. There was a degree of shock from both the defence and the prosecution that the magistrate added eight or nine conditions that hadn't been sought."

The condition that Pistorius be subjected to random alcohol and drug tests had caused particular disquiet, Maughan added. She also said that, according to his coach, Pistorius was due to see a psychiatrist on Tuesday. "Apparently he's not sleeping."

END QUOTE

.

I really get the feeling OP is in a dark, dark place, and he has done something he didn't know he was capable of. He might end up doing something drastic. His mental state should be of huge concern to those who love him.

 

[Carol70]

I quite agree. I'm simply stating the way things are. There WILL always be those who say "he looks shifty to me", and a thousand times as MANY people who will say AFTER the fact "I always said he had a shifty look about him" (even though they never said a word... ) or "he was always an odd bird at school, too...".

"Seems a broken man"... I'd say he IS. Regardless of what happens in the next six months this is not going to end well for OP. Far from it. He's poisoned flesh now. Those who will petulantly yell he gets/got too short a sentence won't bother about that, though.

I absolutely agree too!

Saw an interesting discussion talking about this and it was about gender...I saw someone else in this thread mentioned this but forgot to respond. Role reversal: if it had been a famous woman who shot her boyfriend thinking he was an intruder ( lets say exact same circumstances)would we all be calling her a murderer or would we all be speculating that her bf must have been abusing her and that's why she shot him?

 

[shane13]

Can someone say something "finalistic" RE the first reported blunt force trauma to Reeva?

I read that even Mark Fuhrman wrote a piece for CNN on that--as it was reported the bloody bat and that in addition to the bullet wounds, there was blunt force trauma to her body (head IIRC.)

And this was not cited in bail hearing, correct?

So this was all fabricated?

1. The bloody bat.
2. Blunt force trauma wound.

Obviously there could end up being blood on the bat well after the act, as he moved her body etc. So I am more concerned at how blunt force trauma (non-bullet) injury was promulgated, and then ceased.

Thanks.

 

[Zinn]

I absolutely agree too!

Saw an interesting discussion talking about this and it was about gender...I saw someone else in this thread mentioned this but forgot to respond. Role reversal: if it had been a famous woman who shot her boyfriend thinking he was an intruder ( lets say exact same circumstances)would we all be calling her a murderer or would we all be speculating that her bf must have been abusing her and that's why she shot him?

I think it would be more relevant to ask the question as follows: If Reeva shot OP through a locked bathroom door and then claimed she believed he was an intruder, would we accept this without supporting evidence or would we speculate something else could have occurred?

 

[otyikondo]

Not sure if this has been noted, aside from the links to the articles themselves, but the cover of the YOU mag certainly deals in pretty sombre, doom-laden vocabulary. One or two slightly ominous adjectives thrown in there as hand-grenades, too: :

RUINED!
volatile hothead...
doomed love
troubled sport hero's mind...

I haven't dared look at the magazine itself for fear I might see Kate's t*ts or something (I'm very glad to see the Gravid Duchess still takes preference at the top of the page), but I'd say they are definitely not completely on board with the "accidental" thing.

 

[joe jones]

the cricket bat he was supposed to have beaten her with was all media speculation, it may have blood on it, I am sure the bathroom/toilet area was very bloody so blood may have transferred onto it,

the bat was used only to break the door so he could get into the toilet

 

[Carol70]

Can someone say something "finalistic" RE the first reported blunt force trauma to Reeva?

I read that even Mark Fuhrman wrote a piece for CNN on that--as it was reported the bloody bat and that in addition to the bullet wounds, there was blunt force trauma to her body (head IIRC.)

And this was not cited in bail hearing, correct?

So this was all fabricated?

1. The bloody bat.
2. Blunt force trauma wound.

Obviously there could end up being blood on the bat well after the act, as he moved her body etc. So I am more concerned at how blunt force trauma (non-bullet) injury was promulgated, and then ceased.

Thanks.

You are indeed correct. No blunt trauma, Botha admitted that she had absolutely no evidence present on her body that she was abused in anyway bar the gunshot wounds. No bloody bat, cracked skull etc and I can imagine, the only blood on the bat came from being in the vicinity of the shooting.

All in the mind of some bored journalist I suspect!

 

[natsound]

Can someone say something "finalistic" RE the first reported blunt force trauma to Reeva?

I read that even Mark Fuhrman wrote a piece for CNN on that--as it was reported the bloody bat and that in addition to the bullet wounds, there was blunt force trauma to her body (head IIRC.)

And this was not cited in bail hearing, correct?

So this was all fabricated?

1. The bloody bat.
2. Blunt force trauma wound.

Obviously there could end up being blood on the bat well after the act, as he moved her body etc. So I am more concerned at how blunt force trauma (non-bullet) injury was promulgated, and then ceased.

Thanks.

It's been confirmed there was no blunt force trauma to the body. A few more untrue early reports: that evidence of heavy drinking was found in the home, and that a bullet casing was found in the bedroom. Well, I can't say they're untrue, they just seem to be rumors that fizzled out.

 

[shane13]

Well it was FOX:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/0...an-says-bladerunner-evidence-is-overwhelming/

It includes: "...and Steenkamp had a blunt-force trauma wound to her head."